Gun Freedom? Well, I guess we'll just keep opening up the ground and putting dead bodies in it

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Apr 5, 2000
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I was going to avoid this, but your original post (classy) is crap. Like what John said, people kill people. The next time someone breaks into your house and you can't defend yourself, remember what it means to be an American and own a gun.

And quite frankly, you're typical Democratic thinking makes me glad that I'm not one.
 

Turkey

Senior member
Jan 10, 2000
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<< Correct. Unfortunately, what will happen is that the kid gets ahold of somebody else's weapon and uses it. >>



That's my point... it won't necessarily happen that way. Think about it for a little while. What probably happened was this kid was telling all his friends, jokingly, the weekend before that he was going to shoot up the school. On Sunday, his parents are out of the house, so he goes and gets the gun and ammo and his parents are none the wiser, and none of his friends are any the wiser either.

If his parents don't have a gun, yes, it's still possible he'll do the same thing. But, now the situation is he tells his friends, jokingly, he's going to shoot up the school. Then he either goes around asking his friends if he can borrow their gun, or goes around asking where he can get a gun. Suddenly, people realize he's serious. Maybe it takes so long to get a gun that he stops listening to Marilyn Manson long enough to realize he's not mad enough at the world and his schoolmates to shoot indiscriminately during passing time. Or maybe his friends get around to the principal what he's looking for, or whatever. In any case, it was *really* easy to get a gun in his situation. It still might be *really* easy if his parents didn't have a gun, but now it also might be *really* hard and people could intervene.
 

Outfits

Senior member
Oct 12, 1999
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It is indeed a sad day whenever anyone is murdered and I can only sympathize with the parents of those involved. I own lots of guns and
I like to shoot them, always will, it is my right to do so and I live in a state that lets me do that without much regulation. I'm not going to discuss
&quot;rights&quot; as it seems most of you pro or con do not understand them.

Ironically this was e-mailed to me last week:

Subject: Not in the news-Columbine High School
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:35:26 -0600

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday,
Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High
School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House
Judiciary Committee's sub-committee. What he said to our national leaders
during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were
not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to
be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every
sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These
courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and
deeply personal.

There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the
wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

&quot;Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &amp; evil in the
hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds
of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the
deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must
not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.&quot;

&quot;The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel
out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it
the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the
reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.&quot;

&quot;In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how
quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a
member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here
to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are
responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they
need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's
murder I would be their strongest opponent.&quot;

&quot;I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it
was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real
blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame
lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. &quot;I wrote a
poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written
way before I knew I would be speaking here today&quot;:

Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question &quot;Why?&quot;
You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!

&quot;Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and
spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up,we create
a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc.
Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of
our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological
seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation?
We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred
and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy
occurs - politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA.
They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to
erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more
restrictive laws.&quot;

&quot;Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No
amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of
massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing
and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our
nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will
not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy
television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need
more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs
are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment
that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!&quot;

&quot;As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his
two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in
school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge
every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on
April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our
schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain.
Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation
that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you
who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge.
Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's
death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow
that to happen!&quot;

Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech.
Please send this out to everyone you can!!!



 

LIBERTYorDEATH

Senior member
Feb 28, 2001
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It may not have recieved much press(but then again, more people hear Rush every day than watch the cable news channels in a given day combined) but I am a c-span junkie and I must say it was total pleasure to watch the gun grabbing ,rights nabbing , let us dictate your life to you, democrats on the committee sit with their jaws wide open looking like someone just shot their best hunting dog during Mr. Scott's testimony. I thought waxman was going to die.(too bad he didn't) But it was still a classic c-span moment and I have it on tape.
 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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<< Or maybe his friends get around to the principal what he's looking for, or whatever. In any case, it was *really* easy to get a gun in his situation. >>

And if the parents had kept it locked in a good safe, it might have been really, really hard to get to it. Too many &quot;mights&quot; and &quot;maybes&quot; in your situation.
 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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If somebody is determined to get a gun, they will get a gun. Not too many maybes in that one.
 

Turkey

Senior member
Jan 10, 2000
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That's a given... I'm not arguing that. Isn't it possible he wasn't determined enough? That's the idea of gun restrictions... it'll just be too hard or too annoying to actually go get it. It's not unusual to rely on the laziness of humans. Cyberrebate.com (sells everything overpriced with a equal rebate so everything is free) is still in business because there's always a small percent of people who buy a product and don't send in for the rebate because they're too lazy to cut off the UPC, put it in an envelope, and send away for it. Public key encryption is based on the idea that it's just too hard to get together the computing power to factor large primes. Cable companies charge for that little cable box because it's just annoying to build one yourself... try searching for &quot;free cable descramble&quot; on google and see how many sites turn up that advertise how to get free cable with aluminum foil (it's harder than that). If a person is determined enough, the person will get a gun, but that person might not be determined enough.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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<<I was going to avoid this, but your original post (classy) is crap. Like what John said, people kill people. The next time someone breaks into your house and you can't defend yourself, remember what it means to be an American and own a gun.

And quite frankly, you're typical Democratic thinking makes me glad that I'm not one.>>
RagingBitch

Well don't cry to me. Send a post card to those families of the tragic incident that happened yesterday. Maybe if some of you big bad gun owners went to some these funerals you might change your mind. Just pick a funeral there are plenty to choose from.

Solutions? Did some one ask for solutions?
Here's a few:

1. Stop all importing of assault rifles and handguns.
2. Put a ban on all civilians owning handguns and assault rifles.
3. For those that collect let them apply for a license like a liquor store owner and make just as expensive. And have that license renewed yearly and make the price coincide with how many guns they own.
4. Set up gun clubs where guns that are used for sporting or hunting will be kept. To use that gun the licensed owner will go there and use that weapon there for practice. They will be allowed to sign the weapon out for a time if they are going hunting or particpating in an event somewhere. But the weapon must be returned there.
5. Do background checks every 120 days to check for any charges of violent or questionable behavior. If any are found immediately refuse use of the weapon til further reveiew.
6. All gun owners must be licensed and be charged a fee to support implenting these types of clubs.
7. Make mandatory jail sentences for those owning a gun without a license and in violation of these rules.
8. And more gun education with trained people.

These are just a few things that would be a good start. It is really simple math people. If we limit the amount of guns &quot;legally&quot; available we will lessen the amount of deaths. See the people doing all these killings are not your everyday criminal. Most of these people have never commited a crime. But we live in a very intense and high stress society and people are turning to these guns as their problem solvers. Its not illegal ones that are doing all the killing but the legal ones doing all the damage. We live in society that glamorizes the use of guns. We are programmed to kill through TV, movies, music, and material we read. Killing is all around us and the first choice of weapon is a gun. We have a long way to go to change our society so we have to implement measures to protect lives in our society till we come to the point people will not look to use deadly force to solve their problems. The bodies that are piling up are not being caused by criminals but by law abiding citizens who think turning to deadly force is the answer. I don't want to take the right to own gun but if I have to limit the right because its being used as problem solver resulting in senseless deaths, I got to take away that option. People are not using toe nail clipers (lol), cars, potatoe whatever, but they are using guns. Guns are the deadly option. I only think its time to take away or severly limit that option. If people don't have this option just maybe they will use good ole communication to solve their problems and not fear of deadly use of a firearm.
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
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Outfits, great post. I honestly didn't ever hear of that before. I just love our news media. They only show us what they want us to see.

Where is that guy from Africa who recently moved to the US? He stated that in his country, (I don't know which one), guns were illegal. Only the police and theives and criminals had guns. He lived in constant fear in his country. It was not safe to go anywhere at night. Theives even made roadblocks and the police couldn't stop them. Banning guns created a nightmare for the citizens. They could not protect themselves.

People today are the problem, not the guns. Did you know that just a few decades ago kids in NYC who were in rifle clubs took their rifles on the city's mass transit system to go to rifle ranges? Yes, kids with rifles, out in the open. They were responsible, and they had morals. They didn't kill people. They just went to the rifle range and went home afterwards. Guns are not the problem.

I see Tripleshot is back with his threats. Does anyone still have the link to the thread where he threatened Russ? He wanted to meet Russ for a fight. I'd just like to make sure everyone had a chance to see it.
 

SmiZ

Senior member
Oct 6, 2000
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Ok, sorry I didn't read the whole thread, so if this has been said, forgive me.


Stricter gun control may provide some help, but how many kids, or people for that matter, do you know who would shoot someone given the chance? It takes some serious mental defects to be able to shoot another human being without warrant. Take 99% of American teenagers and put them in a room full of weapons and they aren't going to go on a shooting rampage. The real issue that needs to be addressed here is why did that child feel the need to kill his classmates?

What really needs to be taught to these kids is that high school isn't everything. Self esteem is great, but you can't force children to be nice to each other. All you can do is make them realize that in three years anything that Billy Cool Kid said won't mean SH!T anymore. Anyone who has been picked on knows it sucks. Luckily the people who pick on you won't be in your life forever and about all you can do is avoid them until they aren't anymore. Then at your 25th reunion, you can laugh because they are garbage men and you own your own company.

 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Outfits

You didn't hear about that on the news because it didn't happen. That e-mail has been floating around the net for quite a while now. I believe that guy did address Congress...approximately 2 years ago and it was televised. I've had this sent by family members who also pass on such wonderful chain letters as &quot;God Is Looking&quot; and &quot;The New School Prayer&quot;.

EDIT
Most people don't clue in that this is a hoax probably by a Christian wanting to capitalize on Columbine. But it is. Read the beginning of the e-mail - it's from Daryl Scott, father of Rachel Scott. Read the end of the e-mail. Daryl Scott talks about how his son &quot;Craig&quot; was hiding under a table in Columbine.

-GL
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
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funny, Hitler did the same thing he came into power. He removed the right of the population to have guns. Could anyone refresh my memory of how many people died because they could not protect themselves? I believe it was 3 million Jews and 3 million Russian, Polish, and other catholics. lets say 2% of those poeple had guns; 120,000 gun owners coudl have put a major damper on Nazi plans, but they had none to use against...

Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it.
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
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OK....did a LOT of reading on this shooting.....it appears the kid had been talking about doing this for quite some time, and especially the last week! He was shuffled between his father, his mother, his mother's boyfriend, relatives, and friends..........he had been in counseling on and off for several years, his mothers boyfriend admitts he talked about going on a shooting spree around him as late as Saturday night......but the guy didn't take him seriously because he apparently talked about doing crazy stuff all the time because he was picked on in High School &amp; Junior High, and he didn't think he had access to any guns......His Father, on the other hand, who also knew about his threats, apparently left several guns just laying about in their home! Know what do you make of this????? If ANYONE had sat him down and talked about his problems when he first mentioned this........that might have helped........If HIS FATHER had any sense whatsoever he would not leave guns or ammo within access of any kids in general, but especially one whom has threatened to do something like this.....even if they thought it was an &quot;empty threat&quot;! If the kid had been properly trained about firearms.....&amp; life in general he would have either known better, or if he was that messed up, you'd think they would have locked any guns up in a gun safe! I hate to say it......but maybe Classy has at least got some &quot;rough draft&quot; ideas..........I don't think &quot;Gun Clubs&quot; are the answer......but definately restrictions on access for anyone having children in the home apparently......and this may be doable! Say if you have kids 18 or younger in your home, guns of any kind must be securely locked in a safe, or held off the premises at a friend or relatives home! I hate to say it, but this may be needed........at least in city &amp; suburban areas........it seems kids as young as 14 in many states go through certified hand gun training and the vast majority are responsible with them......it has to be their mindsets that are causing the problem! I have two boys, I have several guns, (none of which are hanguns) the guns are secured in a gunsafe which has only one key and that key has never left my person. My kids and I do take the guns out to my farm and hunt and target practice, they have been properly trained by our Conservation Dept. and are actually very safe in handling them.....BUT.....if I would ever get any incling that either of them has any intentions or thoughts of something like happened yesterday......they would not even be allowed near a gun! People......it's the adults whom are at fault here......maybe they should be held at least partially responsible!
  • Side note: Tripleshot......your threatening people on here is getting old.....I don't know who you think you are, but your threats are unacceptable!
:disgust:
 

LIBERTYorDEATH

Senior member
Feb 28, 2001
350
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Yes, I am sure the home invader, thief, rapist, etc. will just stand around while you run downstairs or to a friends house to retrieve your gun. A gun is not useful unless it is within reach, and always loaded..as Mine always are. I don't call 911..until there is a corpse in my kitchen.
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
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Liberty.......Hey, that's your choice and I have no problem with it! If I were in a high crime area, my thoughts may be different but as it is, I'm more concerned that my children don't find it and show it off to a friend or whatever and something terrible happens.........I highly doubt they would, but that's not a risk I'm ready to take! ;)
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
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<< Well don't cry to me. Send a post card to those families of the tragic incident that happened yesterday. Maybe if some of you big bad gun owners went to some these funerals you might change your mind. Just pick a funeral there are plenty to choose from. >>



Do you even have an ounce of logic in your head?

By this very reasoning, do YOU go to a funeral whenever somebody dies in a car crash because you own a car? Do you?

No you don't because you aren't responsible for that person's death, just like some gun owner in New York has ZERO responsibility for a shooting death in California.



1. Stop all importing of assault rifles and handguns.
We do this. It's about as successful as drug control

2. Put a ban on all civilians owning handguns and assault rifles.
an &quot;assault&quot; rifle is a media coinded phrase.

3. For those that collect let them apply for a license like a liquor store owner and make just as expensive. And have that license renewed yearly and make the price coincide with how many guns they own.you already have to license to LEGALLY own a gun

4. Set up gun clubs where guns that are used for sporting or hunting will be kept. To use that gun the licensed owner will go there and use that weapon there for practice. They will be allowed to sign the weapon out for a time if they are going hunting or particpating in an event somewhere. But the weapon must be returned there. So now we have enclosed hunting grounds? PETA will just LOVE that.

5. Do background checks every 120 days to check for any charges of violent or questionable behavior. If any are found immediately refuse use of the weapon til further reveiew.You've said SEVERAL times that many of these people that commit these crimes have NO criminal record. All you are doing is creating a police state and actively increasing the paranoia in the country. 1984 anyone?

6. All gun owners must be licensed and be charged a fee to support implenting these types of clubs.Huh?

7. Make mandatory jail sentences for those owning a gun without a license and in violation of these rules.This is already illegal. Even so, how do you plan to do this? Random searches? Riiiiiiight.

8. And more gun education with trained peopleAlready have this too. What it takes is for someone to actually get off their ass and go to the class

 

Xzaver

Golden Member
Dec 1, 1999
1,927
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People with guns usualy end up killing themself.

~X~

- [EDIT] : Mind over Matter ?
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
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I wish Al Gore would have won... I might not have a gun, but I would have a flying car...
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
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<< People with guns usualy end up killing themself. >>

:| Now THAT has to be the most assinine, incorrect statement made in this thread thus far! LOL......Have you ever left your house??????
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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There is a big difference between a shot gun and automatic rifle like a AK47. I know here in NJ I don't know of any license necessary for hunting guns. I know you need a license to hunt but for the shotgun I know of none. I did not say enclosed hunting grounds. I said that they sign out the weapon to go hunting but it must be returned. If I guy shows up to sign out his weapon when its not hunting season it should be denied. The gun clubs is there for them to go and practice and clean their weapon. The upped background checks is just for precautionary measures to help maybe ward off those that may be showing signs of violence. Like I guy gets charged with domestic violence, he should be allowed to own a gun at least for a specific amount of time. Similar to a drunk driving charge. You can get caught driving drunk your license is suspended for certain amount of time, same should apply to violations standards set for gun owners. There is no mandatory jail sentence for owning a gun. Only if you commit a crime is there a sentence. Just to own a gun without proper licensing should result in a mandatory jail term. The others were pretty easy to understand. Even a child would understand it.
 

Xzaver

Golden Member
Dec 1, 1999
1,927
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ToBeMe , It's Unfortunate but it's true.
People who leave ARMS in their home have children and loved ones who are curious enough to go to the fathers sock draw , Fiddling with the weapon , not knowing playing Russian roulette at the same time.

~X~
 

MGMorden

Diamond Member
Jul 4, 2000
3,348
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vi_edit: Actually, I think you only have to have a liscense for a handgun . . .at least where I'm at. :)

classy: You can buy a shotgun easily (no waiting period bg check or liscense), but I don't know a single person who doesn't own a gun. It's part of the culture and we don't have a high crime rate. Nor are any of these people &quot;big bad gun owners&quot; as &quot;classy&quot; has stated. They're nice folk who know how to use/own a gun responsibly (hell a couple years back my dad's cousin went out back b/c his hogs were making a lot of noise one night. Luckily he took his rifle. Guess what. A bear was attacking the pigs and attempted to attack him when he walked out there. But he was armed, and hence the bear is dead. How would your &quot;big bad ban gun self&quot; feel if you would have had to go to his funeral knowing he wouldn't be dead if he would have had his gun. Just an example). All people must pass a course though on gun safety and regulations before buying a hunting liscense though. (in South Carolina)
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
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Classy, i see you are well informed. New Jersey has the STIFFEST gun control laws in the country, and when i think of new jersey, i think of crime.

here is the bill Classy.