Guess where my first patient is coming from tomorrow?

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ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
You are really failing to read. I said that people are not perfect and therefore they will fail, that includes bad design, bad manufacturing, and bad testing. It will all happen, because people are not perfect. And then you failed to read the part where I said "they deserve to pay." I do not think it is OK, but I know that it is inevitable, and the companies that failed to protect those patients owe either the patients or the families of the patients for their failure.

Maybe this stems from a failure on your part to understand the word inevitable. It does not convey any form of moral judgement on my part about the occurrence, only my belief that the event in question cannot be avoided or stopped.

Now, if the companies are actually being criminally negligent, then it is up to the court systems and the FDA (I think) to punish them. But, I don't see anything that proves that they are anything other than "not perfect."


That's all fine and good. The problem is that we the people are paying for their failures. Let's review:


  • Medtronic makes a pacemaker that has a high defective rate.
  • Many units fail. Medtronic will pay for replacement unit, but not surgery to replace it. (BS in my opinion).
  • Medtronic gets sued like crazy and has to pay out $$$$$$$$.
  • Medtronic, instead of fixing their design, or improving their quality controls, just pays for more insurance to cover their lawsuits, and raises the selling price of their pacemakers.
  • Insurance companies accept the higher price of Medtronic's pacemakers and pass the costs on to their customers (large employer group plans / individual plans), causing the cost of health coverage to rise very quickly.
  • Individual plans: Customer gets fucked directly. Large employer group plans: Employer gets fucked, but is able to pass much of the fucking along to it's employees through significantly reduced long term wage growth. Either way, the little guy is the one being shit on here.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
But this approach is not giving me an option to treat anyone with love and respect: it's taking everything from me at gunpoint. This relieves me of any moral culpability, which is likely why it appeals to so many, but it also diminishes or removes any merit. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. If Caesar takes everything, what's left?

Caesar is not taking everything, that's simply your opinion.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
7 pages of people whining about $50k to provide essential medical care to an inmate.

Death row inmates make up 0.0001% of our prison population.

If you want to be outraged about something, complain about the billions we spend locking up people for smoking weed.

Already all over that. ;)

(not directed at you specifically, jp): And again with the "7 pages". Really? I'm a little over halfway through page 2 / 2. 100 posts per page setting is nice.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
How many patents do you and ebaycj have? How many engineering degrees do you have? How many medical devices have you designed? I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that, between the two of you, the total for all three of these questions is zero. Otherwise, you would have an understanding of what is required to develop such devices, that innovation is worth something, and that there is no bigger motivator for these things than money. My answer to these questions is 11 (3+3+4+1 patent pending). Why would I bother investing my life in these inventions, in this career, and all of the prerequisite education if I'm not going to receive any reward for it?

You think I should innovate out of the goodness of my heart, funding the development myself, then give the product of my labor away simply because you need it. You want the doctor to install it in your heart for almost nothing, despite his years of training, the stress involved with literally holding your heart in his hands, and the experience required to deal with any complications which arise, again simply because you need it done. How does your need pay my bills? What is my motivation to innovate if I can't make a good living at it? Necessity motivates me to innovate because I assume that by meeting a need, I will be tapping into a market which will compensate me for my product.

EE / CS double BS degree here.
0 medical patents though.

I'm not saying you should recieve no reward. I'm also saying you should not recieve unlimited reward for it. ESPECIALLY for something that is not really new nor innovative.

The FIRST generation of devices, be they pacemakers or MRI or whatever, should fairly be pretty expensive, as they need to cover experimental R&D on something they didn't know would work. And manufacturing costs will likely be high as it's a first cut, and needs to be way-over-engineered to make sure that it works correctly and therefore remains on the market.

But 5-6-7 generations down the line, there hasn't been much new "true innovation", only evolution on the original innovation, and the initial R&D should be covered many times over. The R&D is no longer experimental, as the general principle is known to work, it's now only validating that specific minor differences in the model work as expected. Costs should also have gone down by this point as technology and manufacturing techniques have likely advanced.

Over time, the price paid by the end-user for manufactured devices should trend downwards toward cost of manufacturing, and exactly the opposite is happening. Can you explain that?



Also, more generally, Assumption is the mother of all fuckups, and everyone should avoid making assumptions about anything.
 
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nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
How many patents do you and ebaycj have? How many engineering degrees do you have? How many medical devices have you designed? I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that, between the two of you, the total for all three of these questions is zero. Otherwise, you would have an understanding of what is required to develop such devices, that innovation is worth something, and that there is no bigger motivator for these things than money. My answer to these questions is 11 (3+3+4+1 patent pending). Why would I bother investing my life in these inventions, in this career, and all of the prerequisite education if I'm not going to receive any reward for it?

Shit, we all know you still think Bush found WMD's, so I have a hard time believing your cock and bull internet bragging but on the other hand, I've know some real wierdos ( I wouldn't trust them to grease my car) who had patents. So what if you do?? Besides, what else would you do with your time? Perhaps sit around and whine on the internet like a little prima donna bitch? Get back to work and earn that money, boy.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
EE / CS double BS degree here.
0 medical patents though.

I'm not saying you should recieve no reward. I'm also saying you should not recieve unlimited reward for it. ESPECIALLY for something that is not really new nor innovative.
No one is receiving an unlimited reward. They are receiving some finite amount of money based on what the procedure is worth to the person having the procedure (or their insurance provider). No one is holding a gun to the patient's head, nor to the head of the insurance provider, making them get the procedure with one device or the other. They can choose to have the procedure or not to have the procedure. The fact that almost no one will decline the procedure due to cost indicates to me that this device is worth every penny. Who are you to set an arbitrary limit on what the device is worth?
The FIRST generation of devices, be they pacemakers or MRI or whatever, should fairly be pretty expensive, as they need to cover experimental R&D on something they didn't know would work. And manufacturing costs will likely be high as it's a first cut, and needs to be way-over-engineered to make sure that it works correctly and therefore remains on the market.

But 5-6-7 generations down the line, there hasn't been much new "true innovation", only evolution on the original innovation, and the initial R&D should be covered many times over. The R&D is no longer experimental, as the general principle is known to work, it's now only validating that specific minor differences in the model work as expected. Costs should also have gone down by this point as technology and manufacturing techniques have likely advanced.
How do you know? How much do you know about pacemakers? Obviously not much. You're also obviously not a researcher, or you would know what the R in R&D stands for: research. In this case, the D costs are probably the lion's share of R&D expenditures, simply because of all of the regulatory testing and validation that must take place with every change to the device design. Either way, the company has to pay for it before it is legally allowed to sell you a product, so it has to hire people who are qualified to do this sort of thing, pay for the government oversight, and everything else involved. This slows down the development process considerably and makes it very expensive. Again, how can you arbitrarily say costs should have gone down? If it's so simple to produce these things at low cost, despite getting FDA approval and all of the other hoops the company must jump through, then start your own company and do it. You're nothing but an armchair quarterback throwing out idle commentary at this point. If the company can keep its costs down while meeting all of these requirements, then it will make a higher profit than its competitors. If its costs rise due to technical issues, as in the case of Medtronic apparently, then this will necessarily impact their profit margin. Either way, the company should make as much money as it can while meeting all of the safety and performance standards of the device, and you have no basis to tell them that they shouldn't.
Over time, the price paid by the end-user for manufactured devices should trend downwards toward cost of manufacturing, and exactly the opposite is happening. Can you explain that?
Yes, easily. Manufacturing isn't the primary cost of the device: meeting regulatory standards is. The costs associated with this keep rising. Therefore, the costs of the devices will rise accordingly.
Also, more generally, Assumption is the mother of all fuckups, and everyone should avoid making assumptions about anything.
If no one made assumptions about anything, then no engineering problem would ever be solved. I make assumptions based on my analysis of the situation, experience, and deductions. In this case, it is difficult for me to understand how someone who claims to be an engineer thinks that his own income should be arbitrarily limited based on the whim of someone in another industry. Or do you only apply this logic to those working in other industries, while you think your own income should be unlimited by arbitrary standards?
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
That's all fine and good. The problem is that we the people are paying for their failures. Let's review:


  • Medtronic makes a pacemaker that has a high defective rate.
  • Many units fail. Medtronic will pay for replacement unit, but not surgery to replace it. (BS in my opinion).
  • Medtronic gets sued like crazy and has to pay out $$$$$$$$.
  • Medtronic, instead of fixing their design, or improving their quality controls, just pays for more insurance to cover their lawsuits, and raises the selling price of their pacemakers.
  • Insurance companies accept the higher price of Medtronic's pacemakers and pass the costs on to their customers (large employer group plans / individual plans), causing the cost of health coverage to rise very quickly.
  • Individual plans: Customer gets fucked directly. Large employer group plans: Employer gets fucked, but is able to pass much of the fucking along to it's employees through significantly reduced long term wage growth. Either way, the little guy is the one being shit on here.

I haven't seen anything to indicate medtronic raised their prices to cover the lawsuit losses. I do, however, see that they paid 700 Million in some form of liability. I also see that the profit year over year seems to have decreased by the amount of the liability, which means that the liability costs seem to have come directly from profits. However, that liability does not really replace what was lost. When you deal with any company, the consumer always takes the risk the producers product will fail. Whether it is a car and the brakes/accelerator, food and food poisoning, or smoke detectors that don't detect smoke, the consumer is the one who will always bear the true risk of product failure. There is nothing that I know of that can change that reality.

If you are saying the consumer pays the $ price of failure, I think your wrong, that seems to have come out of their pocket. If you are saying we are paying the price in blood, that is true, and nothing we can do will eliminate that risk. If you think they are not paying enough $ for the losses the public suffered, that is a problem with the courts.

EE / CS double BS degree here.
0 medical patents though.

I'm not saying you should recieve no reward. I'm also saying you should not recieve unlimited reward for it. ESPECIALLY for something that is not really new nor innovative.

The FIRST generation of devices, be they pacemakers or MRI or whatever, should fairly be pretty expensive, as they need to cover experimental R&D on something they didn't know would work. And manufacturing costs will likely be high as it's a first cut, and needs to be way-over-engineered to make sure that it works correctly and therefore remains on the market.

But 5-6-7 generations down the line, there hasn't been much new "true innovation", only evolution on the original innovation, and the initial R&D should be covered many times over. The R&D is no longer experimental, as the general principle is known to work, it's now only validating that specific minor differences in the model work as expected. Costs should also have gone down by this point as technology and manufacturing techniques have likely advanced.

Over time, the price paid by the end-user for manufactured devices should trend downwards toward cost of manufacturing, and exactly the opposite is happening. Can you explain that?

Also, more generally, Assumption is the mother of all fuckups, and everyone should avoid making assumptions about anything.

I think your making an unfounded assumption that a first generation device will cover R&D costs. The first generation devices will probably start being sold when they can provide more money then they cost to manufacture, or cover their variable costs. Anything above the variable cost will go to the fixed costs and R&D, but there is absolutely no reason to believe the first generation will cover it all.

Do you have any evidence that the cost of devices is trending away from their manufacturing costs and not towards them? Because I found a quick article with google that seems to say the opposite, that prices are dropping, and when prices don't drop it is because of better technology: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-83552346.html
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The device?

Trending?

K.. let me summarize.

Pace Makers cost pennies to make.
Health Insurance and Government mark them up to $30,000

-John