GTX 960 is expected to launch next month.

[Leyawiin]

The 750TI has a great market - the NON-TECH people who buy name-brand machines and sure as heck won't be changing power supplies!

The R9-270 wins for the person willing to get their hands dirty and get a decent power supply in there. Especially since, if the motherboard allows it, you can get a SECOND R9-270 to crossfire for some VERY nice performance! (That's my plan! Heck, I'll do that today! Merry Christmas, me!)

I agree. They're different tools for different scenarios. Right now the cheapest R9 270 at Newegg is $155 ($135 after MIR). The cheapest GTX 750 Ti is $130 ($99 after MIR). Really in different categories. While for me the R9 270 would be a better value, for most people I know who just want to play WoW @ 1080p on their sub-$500 HP or ASUS a $99 GTX 750 Ti with no six pin is perfect.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The 750TI has a great market - the NON-TECH people who buy name-brand machines and sure as heck won't be changing power supplies!

If you need to change power supply it also add cost.

 

[Gikaseixas]

If you want higher performance you gotta pay, that's why people who pushing for those extra FPS in games might prefer the 270

For builders on a tight budget the 750TI makes more sense since you pretty much can save on the PS too, unless your system comes already with a 350W plus PS

 

[shady28]

So much incorrect information in 1 post:

1) TDP does not equal power consumption. An R9 270 averages about 111W in games and peaks at 121W:
http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/reviews/ASUS/R9_270_Direct_Cu_II_OC/24.html

You can easily run it on a BestBuy system with a 300-350W PSU. You also made a point of needing a top tier 450W to run an R9 270, while in reality a TOP tier 450W will run an i5/7 paired with a 7970Ghz/780/R9 290. You really need to learn what TDP is and how high end PSUs are rated.

I'm not going into all the bad info you just spouted. My main point is that a typical 350-450W power supply used in off the shelf systems doesn't work well with a card like the R9 270 and up.

You seem to disagree.

Here are some good references that back up the point I made :

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-270-review,8.html

"AMD R9 270 - On your average system the card requires you to have a 500 Watt power supply unit."

http://forum-en.msi.com/faq/article/power-requirements-for-graphics-cards

"Radeon R9-270X - 24A and a 500W psu minimum"

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7503/the-amd-radeon-r9-270x-270-review-feat-asus-his

"Typical Board Power 180W 150W" (R9 270X / R9 270)


All you really have to do is go to the 'bench' link at this site and select the 750 Ti and the R9 270. You can see the R9 puts out 10db more than the 750 Ti, and takes about 64W more (roughly double the 750 Ti's draw).

I'll say again, it's really poor advice telling people with off the shelf systems to get a card like this one. It's going to make their system excessively loud, and potentially unstable.

 

[caswow]

I'm not going into all the bad info you just spouted. My main point is that a typical 350-450W power supply used in off the shelf systems doesn't work well with a card like the R9 270 and up.

You seem to disagree.

Here are some good references that back up the point I made :

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-270-review,8.html

"AMD R9 270 - On your average system the card requires you to have a 500 Watt power supply unit."

http://forum-en.msi.com/faq/article/power-requirements-for-graphics-cards

"Radeon R9-270X - 24A and a 500W psu minimum"

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7503/the-amd-radeon-r9-270x-270-review-feat-asus-his

"Typical Board Power 180W 150W" (R9 270X / R9 270)


All you really have to do is go to the 'bench' link at this site and select the 750 Ti and the R9 270. You can see the R9 puts out 10db more than the 750 Ti, and takes about 64W more (roughly double the 750 Ti's draw).

I'll say again, it's really poor advice telling people with off the shelf systems to get a card like this one. It's going to make their system excessively loud, and potentially unstable.

stop lying this is completly false...:thumbsdown:

Warning issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[HumblePie]

As some one that mostly has bought ATI in the past due to bang for the buck, Nvidia does occasionally put out the wonder for the price cards. 8800 GTX was one, and I bought that card no problem. The GTX 970 card is another good for the price card when you can get it for under $300.

Who knows what the 960 will be like. It could be an overpriced POS for the performance, or another hit. Until it lands, it's all up in the air.

But for my recommendations on cards for price these are it if you can find them.

Under $100 = GTX 750 ti with the right deal that is getting rarer
$110-$120= R9 270
$140-$150 = R9 270x
$200 = R9 285
$250 = R9 290x
$300 = GTX 970

That's pretty much the only cards I would recommend and at those price points right now. Most people are budget and either really low budget which = 750ti price or just low budget which = 270 price.

Everything after that is basically a $50 step up with decent performance for the price gains for every $50 spent.

Question is where in that is the 960 going to fall. Right now Nvidia in my eyes only is a good recommendation sub $100 or over $300. They have nothing in between there.

 

[notty22]

The gtx 770 is basically out of stock at newegg. Something must be coming to fill the gaps.
Both brands go on sale.

 

[crisium]

AR, the cheapest 270 is only $10 more than the cheapest 750 Ti. That's why I said "a few bucks more", because choosing not to get ~30% more performance for another $10 strikes me as an unreasonable buying decision. I understand people with the absolutely lowest PSU's imaginable will favour the 750 Ti. But I hope no one recommends the 750 Ti to brand new gaming builds. An extra $10-$20 for 30% more is always worth it when gaming is a top priority.

To make it relevant, I am guessing that the 960 will not win the price-to-performance ratio war with the 280 and 290, but much like the 750Ti will be recommended anyway for other reasons.

 

[shady28]

AR, the cheapest 270 is only $10 more than the cheapest 750 Ti. That's why I said "a few bucks more", because choosing not to get ~30% more performance for another $10 strikes me as an unreasonable buying decision. I understand people with the absolutely lowest PSU's imaginable will favour the 750 Ti. But I hope no one recommends the 750 Ti to brand new gaming builds. An extra $10-$20 for 30% more is always worth it when gaming is a top priority.

I agree with that when we're talking about a decent PSU on a DIY build. The R9 270 on a pure price / perf basis is easily the best deal at this moment.

Thing is most of the time you get an off the shelf box, it has a ~400W PSU with an efficiency rating of 70. That means the max that 400W PSU will supply internal components is 400W * 70% = 280W.

In that scenario plugging in a card that can draw 150W in a heavy load situation is not a great idea. The mobo / CPU / hard drives etc can easily total up to over 130W under load. You wind up with someone coming back saying 'Wow great card, but every other time my E:\ drive spins up my computer crashes?'

I've seen that type of situation quite a few times and wouldn't rec such a card unless its DIY with a decent PSU of known quantity / quality, or they're willing to replace their PSU.

 

[HumblePie]

I agree with that when we're talking about a decent PSU on a DIY build. The R9 270 on a pure price / perf basis is easily the best deal at this moment.

Thing is most of the time you get an off the shelf box, it has a ~400W PSU with an efficiency rating of 70. That means the max that 400W PSU will supply internal components is 400W * 70% = 280W.

In that scenario plugging in a card that can draw 150W in a heavy load situation is not a great idea. The mobo / CPU / hard drives etc can easily total up to over 130W under load. You wind up with someone coming back saying 'Wow great card, but every other time my E:\ drive spins up my computer crashes?'

I've seen that type of situation quite a few times and wouldn't rec such a card unless its DIY with a decent PSU of known quantity / quality, or they're willing to replace their PSU.

Uhh, I worked for years at retail computer stores. All of them. Most of the generic cheapo off the shelf computers I always told people that if they want to put any gaming video card into it, they will need to upgrade the PSU. Most of the systems are almost unstable as configured with some crappy ass Allied power or other bullshit power supply in there. A 750ti would make most of the off the shelf systems that people are buying unstable as well. I could probably crack open any number of cases at a store to look inside for the PSU they have. If it's a sub $400 system, it has junk psu in it 100% guaranteed. I am talking a 300w, and I use that rating loosely, PSU that probably cant even put out a stable 150watts at full load. They are designed for web surfing and that is it. 99% of the consumers buying those are getting a photo editting, homework making, web surfing machine that can play facebook games, and do nothing more.

Anyone looking to actually play games will either have to step up to a pricier machine with a better PSU, or buy both a PSU and vid card in combination. I used to tell all my customers that every time when they were buying a computer from me.

So your argument doesn't fly period. The cheapie computers can't run either a 750ti nor a r9 270 without a PSU upgrade, and those that don't require a PSU upgrade can run either.

 

[Leyawiin]

AR, the cheapest 270 is only $10 more than the cheapest 750 Ti. That's why I said "a few bucks more"...

When you factor in rebates for both the cheapest R9 270 still ends up being $25-$30 more than the cheapest GTX 750 Ti (using Newegg as a price check point). Its much a much better card and I would pop for the extra, but some might not be able to.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

The gtx 770 is basically out of stock at newegg. Something must be coming to fill the gaps.
Both brands go on sale.

Hasn't the 770 been out of production since late October? God I can't imagine paying $260 for that card now. I couldn't believe it seeing 770's going for $300 when I was at Best Buy last month.

 

[HumblePie]

Just to rehash what I just posted with some examples.

A typical customer looking for a low end computer is going to get something like this.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-ins...&skuId=5859014

They see a sub $400 computer that can handle the basics pretty easily. Web surfing, watching youtube, playing facebook games, handling social media, doing homework/work, and maybe watching pron. Yep, perfect computer for them. They don't care about playing "video" games because that is what they bought an xbox or playstation for.

A few months after owning it, they see an online ad for a video game that seems interesting, or maybe a neighbor plays WoW. They think, "Hey that looks fun! I would like to try that. Wait my xbox can't do that? Well it looks like it won't load or work on my computer. Guess I need a video card. I'll head back to bestbuy to get one!"

They head back to bestbuy and the store rep will send them to the video card isle. At which point they are overwhelmed and wait around for a slightly more knowledgeable geek squad kid. He asks what computer they have and if the geek squad kid isn't a complete idiot will realize they need a slightly better power supply. They'll recommend some cheapie thermaltake PSU, at which point the customer will see the even cheaper Dynex PSU and ask if that will work. If the geek squad kid is still not a complete idiot, they will steer the customer away from that PoS.

Why the upgrade to the PSU? Because what comes in that HP I just linked is a 280watt rated power supply that really can barely put out 150-180 watts at max load without popping caps or starting a fire.

 

[stahlhart]

I ran out of warnings to hand out in this thread. Any further hostile language will result in infractions. Keep it civil.
-- stahlhart

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Just to rehash what I just posted with some examples.

A typical customer looking for a low end computer is going to get something like this.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-ins...&skuId=5859014

They see a sub $400 computer that can handle the basics pretty easily. Web surfing, watching youtube, playing facebook games, handling social media, doing homework/work, and maybe watching pron. Yep, perfect computer for them. They don't care about playing "video" games because that is what they bought an xbox or playstation for.

A few months after owning it, they see an online ad for a video game that seems interesting, or maybe a neighbor plays WoW. They think, "Hey that looks fun! I would like to try that. Wait my xbox can't do that? Well it looks like it won't load or work on my computer. Guess I need a video card. I'll head back to bestbuy to get one!"

They head back to bestbuy and the store rep will send them to the video card isle. At which point they are overwhelmed and wait around for a slightly more knowledgeable geek squad kid. He asks what computer they have and if the geek squad kid isn't a complete idiot will realize they need a slightly better power supply. They'll recommend some cheapie thermaltake PSU, at which point the customer will see the even cheaper Dynex PSU and ask if that will work. If the geek squad kid is still not a complete idiot, they will steer the customer away from that PoS.

Why the upgrade to the PSU? Because what comes in that HP I just linked is a 280watt rated power supply that really can barely put out 150-180 watts at max load without popping caps or starting a fire.

I was surprised to see my local Best Buy (I'm also in San Antonio) carries a lot of Corsair power supplies... and a $260 AMD branded R9 270x (it's really an XFX Double Dissipation with 4GB VRAM).

 

[Kippa]

When are the new 20nm gpu based chips rumoured to come out now? Early 2015 or mid 2015?

 

[shady28]

Uhh, I worked for years at retail computer stores. All of them. Most of the generic cheapo off the shelf computers I always told people that if they want to put any gaming video card into it, they will need to upgrade the PSU. Most of the systems are almost unstable as configured with some crappy ass Allied power or other bullshit power supply in there. A 750ti would make most of the off the shelf systems that people are buying unstable as well. I could probably crack open any number of cases at a store to look inside for the PSU they have. If it's a sub $400 system, it has junk psu in it 100% guaranteed. I am talking a 300w, and I use that rating loosely, PSU that probably cant even put out a stable 150watts at full load. They are designed for web surfing and that is it. 99% of the consumers buying those are getting a photo editting, homework making, web surfing machine that can play facebook games, and do nothing more.

Anyone looking to actually play games will either have to step up to a pricier machine with a better PSU, or buy both a PSU and vid card in combination. I used to tell all my customers that every time when they were buying a computer from me.

So your argument doesn't fly period. The cheapie computers can't run either a 750ti nor a r9 270 without a PSU upgrade, and those that don't require a PSU upgrade can run either.

You sure you read my post? You're basically saying the same thing I was - though I was saying the 750 Ti was the *most* I would rec for off the shelf boxes with a 300-450W PSU.

If you look at the link below you'll see the min req for a stock 750 Ti is a 300W PSU (bottom of the specs) and the card has a max draw of 60W (55W for a non-Ti). That Dell Inspiron 3000 you linked to has a 300W PSU.

Now if you go with one of those OC / SC 750 Ti's that can pull 85W, yeah that might start to become a problem.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-750-ti/specifications

 

[HumblePie]

You sure you read my post? You're basically saying the same thing I was - though I was saying the 750 Ti was the *most* I would rec for off the shelf boxes with a 300-450W PSU.

If you look at the link below you'll see the min req for a stock 750 Ti is a 300W PSU (bottom of the specs) and the card has a max draw of 60W (55W for a non-Ti). That Dell Inspiron 3000 you linked to has a 300W PSU.

Now if you go with one of those OC / SC 750 Ti's that can pull 85W, yeah that might start to become a problem.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-750-ti/specifications

I read your post, and said, that you are wrong because even a 750ti is going to make the average off the shelf cheapie pre-built computer unstable. They are all going to need a PSU upgrade if they even have a PCIe slot for a vid card. Many of the cheaper computers don't have any upgrade slots on the motherboards for even a video card so those computers are completely worthless for upgrading to play games.

The ones that do have a motherboard that can take a vid card, and are cheapie computers do not have 400watt power supplies in them. I can promise you that. They have much worse than what you think they have. Most of the power supplies in cheapie pre-built HP, Dells, Gateways, and what not are barely capable of 180watts at load. A 750ti nor a R9 270 would work in those without a PSU upgrade. That 300watt PSU in that dell inspiron is built using a 150watt system and "rated" at 300 watts. It certainly could NOT handle a 750ti.

Those per-built computers that aren't using bottom of the barrel PSU's tend to actually have a PSU capable of around 400watts and can do a R9 270 no problem. Meaning there is no advantage for the 750ti versus 270 when it comes to upgrading a pre-built system for the mass public.

 

[HumblePie]

To put it nominally, most off the shelf pre-built budget comptuers use craptastic power supplies you'll find in these bargain basement priced PSUs reviewed by jonnyguru.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=71

None of the 300watt ones will actually reach 300 watt at all, and barely pull 80% of that and not with stability. Things have not changed either. The power supplies found in 99% of all your budget pre-built systems are going to be "stablish" up to 180watts or so. That's about the limit I would say. And no, that is NOT good enough for even a 750ti card. End of story.

If a consumer has one of those crappy pre-built systems then they will need a power supply upgrade period if they want any video card. The slightly better pre-built systems are going to have better PSUs that can handle either a 750ti or a r9 270 no problem. That has been my general experience looking at THOUSANDS of these computers for years from various brands.

 

[96Firebird]

You do realize a 750 Ti pulls about 60W full-load, right?

 

[boozzer]

To put it nominally, most off the shelf pre-built budget comptuers use craptastic power supplies you'll find in these bargain basement priced PSUs reviewed by jonnyguru.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=71

None of the 300watt ones will actually reach 300 watt at all, and barely pull 805 of that and not with stability. Things have not changed either. The power supplies found in 99% of all your budget pre-built systems are going to be "stablish" up to 180watts or so. That's about the limit I would say. And no, that is NOT good enough for even a 750ti card. End of story.

If a consumer has one of those crappy pre-built systems then they will need a power supply upgrade period if they want any video card. The slightly better pre-built systems are going to have better PSUs that can handle either a 750ti or a r9 270 no problem. That has been my general experience looking at THOUSANDS of these computers for years from various brands.

so basically if the avg joe wants to play games by buying a semi decent gpu, they have to get a new psu no matter what. when that happens, 270x wins hands down. GG. you are very patient at dealing with people, I wouldn't be able to. :thumbsup:

 

[shady28]

I read your post, and said, that you are wrong because even a 750ti is going to make the average off the shelf cheapie pre-built computer unstable. They are all going to need a PSU upgrade if they even have a PCIe slot for a vid card. Many of the cheaper computers don't have any upgrade slots on the motherboards for even a video card so those computers are completely worthless for upgrading to play games.

The ones that do have a motherboard that can take a vid card, and are cheapie computers do not have 400watt power supplies in them. I can promise you that. They have much worse than what you think they have. Most of the power supplies in cheapie pre-built HP, Dells, Gateways, and what not are barely capable of 180watts at load. A 750ti nor a R9 270 would work in those without a PSU upgrade. That 300watt PSU in that dell inspiron is built using a 150watt system and "rated" at 300 watts. It certainly could NOT handle a 750ti.

Those per-built computers that aren't using bottom of the barrel PSU's tend to actually have a PSU capable of around 400watts and can do a R9 270 no problem. Meaning there is no advantage for the 750ti versus 270 when it comes to upgrading a pre-built system for the mass public.

R9 270 requires a 500W PSU, see previous post & links. The 750 Ti requires 300W, also see previous post.

But my point is, a 60W 750 Ti is very likely to work in a low end off the shelf unit. An R9 270 is almost certain not to, it draws twice the power of a 750 Ti. How you can look at those numbers and conclude that if an R9 270 won't work, neither will a 750 Ti, is beyond me.

While it's possible some of the off the shelf vendors use truly worthless $10 PSUs with all kinds of false advertising issues like the one you linked to, I think that's a very bad / incorrect assumption from these top tier manufacturers. They would be losing tons of money on returns / support from failed PSUs - and retailers like wal-mart and best buy would drop them in a new york minute as a result.

Dell for example uses Delta Electronics PSUs on the XPS 8700 in my sig. That is a top tier Taiwan mfr.

More to the topic of this thread, I was reading it wondering if the 960 would fall into the power envelope my XPS can stand. Recent articles indicate it will be 100-120W, or just a tad under the R9 270's draw.

 

[shady28]

You do realize a 750 Ti pulls about 60W full-load, right?

Apparently 750 Ti @ 60 W is the same as an R9 270 @ 120W and require the same kind of PSU, at least in someone's opinion.

In my book they are totally different.

 

[boozzer]

don't understand why it is so hard. all humblepie is saying is those craptastic psu that comes with those super bad prebuilts cannot handle either card. and if the avg joe is going to buy a new psu anyway, 270 auto wins. of course if the crappy psu from 400$ barebones from bestbuy can handle a 750 ti, it is also a no brainer for the avg joe.

 

[96Firebird]

all humblepie is saying is those craptastic psu that comes with those super bad prebuilts cannot handle either card.

And that is simply not true. Most can handle it just fine.