Group Pushes Kerry-Nader Vote Swap

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Was I talking to you, Sparky? Guilty conscience or something?

Anyone who can't see the obvious reasons that this should be outlawed is blatantly partisan. If this is allowed, then there is no reason everyone supporting Bush in CA shouldn't drive to Oregon and overthrow their votes for Kerry. It basically pisses away the entire establishment of the republic in one fell swoop.

Sure there is, as you aren't allowed to vote in a state that you aren't registered in.

I've already signed up to swap my (meaningless) CA Kerry vote for an independent/Nader vote in some swing state. You can come try and arrest me if you dare.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Was I talking to you, Sparky? Guilty conscience or something?

Anyone who can't see the obvious reasons that this should be outlawed is blatantly partisan. If this is allowed, then there is no reason everyone supporting Bush in CA shouldn't drive to Oregon and overthrow their votes for Kerry. It basically pisses away the entire establishment of the republic in one fell swoop.

Sure there is, as you aren't allowed to vote in a state that you aren't registered in.

I've already signed up to swap my (meaningless) CA Kerry vote for an independent/Nader vote in some swing state. You can come try and arrest me if you dare.

Same here. The electoral college can kiss my white a$$. Not wasting my vote in a state that is going to go for Kerry. I have already swapped my vote for Nadar and a Nadar supporter will be voting for Kerry in Florida. Tell me I can't vote for who I want. Please............

Abolish the EC like it should and this won't be a practice any longer.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Well I live in CA so Kerry is going to win here regardless. I have already sent in the preliminary info and am awaiting their response. I'm gonna read more into this though before I make my decision. However, I must say this appeals to me very much so, and I'm glad I can do something to help Kerry get elected in these crucial swingstates.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DonVito
The Constitution applies to the conduct of government, not individuals. I agree with you the Constitution enables the federal government, and state governments, to restrict this kind of activity, but that doesn't mean individuals can't engage in it, absent some law to the contrary. It seems to me when two individuals enter into this kind of agreement, each effectively chooses to vote for the other's candidate, with no money or other valuable currency changing hands. I don't see a problem with it, and I would say the same if we were talking about the Bush/Clinton/Perot election of 1992.

It is true that anything not strictly forbidden is allowed by our system. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that if it isn't illegal, it should be because this behavior defeats the entire electoral system we use.

Originally posted by: Spencer278
If a bunch of repbulician wish to move to Oregon then there is no reason they shouldn't register to vote in oregon in fact it would be wrong for them not change registeration.

Exactly - if they wish to move there. This vote-swapping crap circumvents that entirely.

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Sure there is, as you aren't allowed to vote in a state that you aren't registered in.

I've already signed up to swap my (meaningless) CA Kerry vote for an independent/Nader vote in some swing state. You can come try and arrest me if you dare.

Exactly, but by swapping your vote, you are essentially voting in a state that you're not registered in - you're simply voting by proxy. The lack of principles is astounding, but not surprising.

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Same here. The electoral college can kiss my white a$$. Not wasting my vote in a state that is going to go for Kerry. I have already swapped my vote for Nadar and a Nadar supporter will be voting for Kerry in Florida. Tell me I can't vote for who I want. Please............

Abolish the EC like it should and this won't be a practice any longer.

Finally, someone finally comes out and says it. This is an attempt to defeat a constitutional process: the electoral college.

[edit]Maybe I should sign up and promise to vote for Kerry in Missouri so someone else will vote for Nader, then vote for Bush. After all, fair's fair, right?[/edit]

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

The good thing is even if some Rep. try to sabotage and abuse the purpose of this votepairing, it will do no good. Pose as a Kerry supporter in a safe state or as a Nader supporter in a swing state, it won't change the EC results.

 

[DealMonkey]

The electoral college is outdated and broken. Let's fix it. Let's move to a popular vote and make it count with instant runoffs. Voters should be able to rank the candidates in order of preference. If the first "winner" doesn't get 50 percent of the vote, the least favorite candidate is dropped, and those votes go to the voters' next favorite candidate. You do a new count, and repeat the process until someone gets 50 percent. This way votes aren't wasted: If voters don't get their first choice, they get something close - their second or third choice. It also allows third parties to emerge without "spoiling it" for like-minded candidates.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The electoral college is outdated and broken. Let's fix it. Let's move to a popular vote and make it count with instant runoffs. Voters should be able to rank the candidates in order of preference. If the first "winner" doesn't get 50 percent of the vote, the least favorite candidate is dropped, and those votes go to the voters' next favorite candidate. You do a new count, and repeat the process until someone gets 50 percent. This way votes aren't wasted: If voters don't get their first choice, they get something close - their second or third choice. It also allows third parties to emerge without "spoiling it" for like-minded candidates.

In your opinion, the EC doesn't work. This is far from fact. Attempting to defeat it through underground vote-swapping is hardly the proper way to protest it. It amounts to subversion of government.

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The good thing is even if some Rep. try to sabotage and abuse the purpose of this votepairing, it will do no good. Pose as a Kerry supporter in a safe state or as a Nader supporter in a swing state, it won't change the EC results.

Meh, I'll just start my own vote-swapping site - trade a vote for any candidate for a vote for Bush in a swing state.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

If this vote-pairing thing really takes off it is possible that we could change this election. Considering the small margins in the 2000 election, if we had 10,000-20,000 vote pairings, we could conceivably change this race. This is assuming that the race will be a dead heat like it was in 2000. If Kerry can't close the gap in the debates this vote-pairing may prove useless. For it to work well, the safe states have to be SAFELY in Kerry territory.

 

[Kibbo]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Because the minute you start legalizing constitutional manipulation is the minute the constitution is worth nothing.

I guess I don't see what you mean by "constitutional manipulation." The Constitution doesn't address vote-swapping any more than it addresses the substantive Due Process protections the Supreme Court has interpreted, much to the consternation of conservatives (most notably in Roe v. Wade).

The constitution sets the electoral college so that only people in a state may affect the manner in which that state's electoral votes are distributed. Any action contrary to it is obvious manipulation of the system and, therefore, the constitution.

They are manipulating the constitution in such a way as to correct the flaws in it. The electoral college is incredibly distortionary, and not needed in any modern country. This org is finding a (hopefully) legal way to work around the system. It is unwritten tweaks such as this that has allowed the Parliamentary system in the UK to survive over centuries. You do not need every tiny change in the workings of government to be immortalized in one rigid document. If it is found to be legal, than you should have a discussion on whether or not this kind of systemic work-around is good or bad for your system. If you (as a society) decide that it's consequences are bad, then you can have it illegalized. If not, you can keep it around.

A proccess is not bad only by virtue of whether or not it is taken into account in the original writing of the constitution. You should evaluate this on the effects it could have on your system overall.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Kibbo
They are manipulating the constitution in such a way as to correct the flaws in it. The electoral college is incredibly distortionary, and not needed in any modern country. This org is finding a (hopefully) legal way to work around the system. It is unwritten tweaks such as this that has allowed the Parliamentary system in the UK to survive over centuries. You do not need every tiny change in the workings of government to be immortalized in one rigid document. If it is found to be legal, than you should have a discussion on whether or not this kind of systemic work-around is good or bad for your system. If you (as a society) decide that it's consequences are bad, then you can have it illegalized. If not, you can keep it around.

A proccess is not bad only by virtue of whether or not it is taken into account in the original writing of the constitution. You should evaluate this on the effects it could have on your system overall.

It can only have one effect, if any: subverting the democratic process by which we are governed. As such, its intent is obvious: to skew the basis for election. You can't justify such action by merely claiming that the EC is broken. As many threads have shown, the EC has kept us on track just as you say work-arounds kept the UK on track. It's far from the perfect system, but that doesn't justify any and all attempts to defeat it through subversive measures.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

A lot of trust is involved in this, and in order for this to work the Nader supporters have to want Bush out of office just as bad as they want Nader in office.

 

[CycloWizard]

Just to demonstrate that I'm not on crack, here:

Former California Secretary of State Bill Jones ordered similar sites to shut down in 2000. He said vote swapping was illegal, citing state election law prohibitions against people receiving or offering any "valuable consideration" for a vote. Most states have similar laws. Secretary of State Kevin Shelley's office could not determine Monday what his position is on vote swapping.

"Brokering to exchange a vote, I think, runs contrary to the spirit of fair elections."

Bear in mind that Jones was a Democrat.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The electoral college is outdated and broken. Let's fix it. Let's move to a popular vote and make it count with instant runoffs. Voters should be able to rank the candidates in order of preference. If the first "winner" doesn't get 50 percent of the vote, the least favorite candidate is dropped, and those votes go to the voters' next favorite candidate. You do a new count, and repeat the process until someone gets 50 percent. This way votes aren't wasted: If voters don't get their first choice, they get something close - their second or third choice. It also allows third parties to emerge without "spoiling it" for like-minded candidates.

In your opinion, the EC doesn't work. This is far from fact. Attempting to defeat it through underground vote-swapping is hardly the proper way to protest it. It amounts to subversion of government.

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The good thing is even if some Rep. try to sabotage and abuse the purpose of this votepairing, it will do no good. Pose as a Kerry supporter in a safe state or as a Nader supporter in a swing state, it won't change the EC results.

Meh, I'll just start my own vote-swapping site - trade a vote for any candidate for a vote for Bush in a swing state.

Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

 

[bdude]

Moreso than simply mere unethical activity, I believe that the true weaknesses and inconsistencies of the electoral college are revealed by actions of these sort of groups.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

If this were true, which I doubt, it would be a perfect example of the blackhearted, scorched-earth, amoral Rove school of campaigning, but it wouldn't have any measurable effect. The whole idea of the vote-swapping is that the votes lost by Kerry come in states in which he is sure to win. If this is really how the RNC chooses to spend its time, God bless 'em.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

I don't think you're arguing principles at all, just arguing.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

Ah bull$hit. This is not a lib/republican thing. It is about what is right and wrong.

For those not keeping score:

EC = Crap
Vote Swapping = Correction of that Crap.

Desired result = The person with the most votes in the presidential election wins the game, regardless of whether that person is Bush or Kerry.

That is what is right. Screw the EC and its punishment of where people live. If our elected officals won't change the system, then we will.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The electoral college is outdated and broken. Let's fix it. Let's move to a popular vote and make it count with instant runoffs. Voters should be able to rank the candidates in order of preference. If the first "winner" doesn't get 50 percent of the vote, the least favorite candidate is dropped, and those votes go to the voters' next favorite candidate. You do a new count, and repeat the process until someone gets 50 percent. This way votes aren't wasted: If voters don't get their first choice, they get something close - their second or third choice. It also allows third parties to emerge without "spoiling it" for like-minded candidates.

In your opinion, the EC doesn't work. This is far from fact. Attempting to defeat it through underground vote-swapping is hardly the proper way to protest it. It amounts to subversion of government.

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The good thing is even if some Rep. try to sabotage and abuse the purpose of this votepairing, it will do no good. Pose as a Kerry supporter in a safe state or as a Nader supporter in a swing state, it won't change the EC results.

Meh, I'll just start my own vote-swapping site - trade a vote for any candidate for a vote for Bush in a swing state.

Vote swaping does not defeat the Electrol college. It allows people living in battle ground states to voice there support for Nader with out throwing away their vote. It in no way defeats the EC because the states are still limited to the number of EC votes. Vote swapping uses the EC system of winner take all.

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

Ah bull$hit. This is not a lib/republican thing. It is about what is right and wrong.

For those not keeping score:

EC = Crap
Vote Swapping = Correction of that Crap.

Desired result = The person with the most votes in the presidential election wins the game, regardless of whether that person is Bush or Kerry.

That is what is right. Screw the EC and its punishment of where people live. If our elected officals won't change the system, then we will.

The government says EC = good, and therefore that is how we vote in this country. Don't like it? Move somewhere else. You = bigot.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

The government says EC = good, and therefore that is how we vote in this country. Don't like it? Move somewhere else. You = bigot.

How is he a bigot? Do you know what that word means?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

I don't think you're arguing principles at all, just arguing.

So it must appear to one without principles.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

Ah bull$hit. This is not a lib/republican thing. It is about what is right and wrong.

For those not keeping score:

EC = Crap
Vote Swapping = Correction of that Crap.

Desired result = The person with the most votes in the presidential election wins the game, regardless of whether that person is Bush or Kerry.

That is what is right. Screw the EC and its punishment of where people live. If our elected officals won't change the system, then we will.

The government says EC = good, and therefore that is how we vote in this country. Don't like it? Move somewhere else. You = bigot.

Nope. I'll stay here thanks and swap my vote while I am at it. You = can't do anything about it. Pfttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

 

[AFB]

We wouldn't need this if we didn't have the EC. Conservatives in MA and Liberals in Texas will never get counted under the current system.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Don't sweat it, CycloWizard. The Rnc has already launched hundreds of 'cloned' vote-swapping sites. The sites are not designed to swap Bush for Nader votes, but rather Kerry votes for......nothing. :laugh: Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire...

A large grassroots movement in the 2000 Democratic vote-swapping movement could in fact, have the opposite of the intended effect.

Meh. I'm not concerned with the outcome of election. Foolishly, I'm trying to argue principles with the extreme libs on this board, immediately after they demonstrate that they have none.

Ah bull$hit. This is not a lib/republican thing. It is about what is right and wrong.

For those not keeping score:

EC = Crap
Vote Swapping = Correction of that Crap.

Desired result = The person with the most votes in the presidential election wins the game, regardless of whether that person is Bush or Kerry.

That is what is right. Screw the EC and its punishment of where people live. If our elected officals won't change the system, then we will.

The government says EC = good, and therefore that is how we vote in this country. Don't like it? Move somewhere else. You = bigot.

Yes because the government always knows what's best for us..... Sheesh are you some kind of mindless robot? Think for yourself.

The simple fact is the EC isn't perfect, and it doesn't give all voters a fair shot to let their voices be heard. So since no politician will ever change this, we are taking matters into our own hands.