Grounding Kits?

[sunilgupta65]

Someone studying in EE said

That would be me (Actually done studying over 20 years ago - working at a tech firm doing telecoms.). Note that I said "in theory" in my statement.

It's very poor wiring practice to have a component connected to the chassis ground at multiple points, that can result in ground loops that are a PITA.

Yes, this is very true.

Many kits bring everything back to the negative battery terminal in a ring ground formation.

Actually it would be not be a ring at all - instead a star would better characterize the proper configuration. When you design any electrical system you can avoid ground loops by "home running" grounds (look inside any high-end home amp for example). That is to say that all ground wires come to the same point. In a car that "single point" is the car body - but, considering that this is a rather large "single point", careful design must go into grounding a car (I would guess).

Many people that have very good reputations on forums and in the motorsport world have had good luck with upgraded grounds solving some issues with electronics.

to me that means that either the original design was faulty, something failed (like a corroded ground point) or that the car was modified.

Doing the Big 3 for me solved some dimming issues.

What do you mean by "Big 3"? On my G35 even with the Bose system blasting XM Radio BPM, Area or Metallica there are simply no dimming issue.

ShawnD1 has basically summed up the issue very well in his well written explanations.

The *only* thing that I could possibly see useful *maybe* would be to double up the gauge of the wire from the battery negative terminal to the chassis... at least on the G35 it looks like 6 gauge which seems a bit wimpy to me. What that may do (without doing the math) is prevent a fraction of a volt drop under high current load which *may* reduce audio distortion or in some way benefit other electromechanical devices... but it'll do nothing for the ECU and other digital circtuits as Shawnd1 already pointed out.

Sunil

 

[thescreensavers]

^ hehe I see you got my PM

So what is your saying about these kits 100% bunk?

Its looking that way, I wont even consider buying one now ha ,lightly sanding the current grounds would be the best bet, which is cheap!

 

[alkemyst]

Actually it would be not be a ring at all - instead a star would better characterize the proper configuration. When you design any electrical system you can avoid ground loops by "home running" grounds (look inside any high-end home amp for example). That is to say that all ground wires come to the same point. In a car that "single point" is the car body - but, considering that this is a rather large "single point", careful design must go into grounding a car (I would guess).

hmm you may want to get you head out of a textbook and look at some of the kits then. The ring I was referring to attaches to the main on the car. It's a 'star'.

What do you mean by "Big 3"? On my G35 even with the Bose system blasting XM Radio BPM, Area or Metallica there are simply no dimming issue.

Dude, please read up a bit before making "EE" claims. The Bose part is pure motherfucking LOLZ.

The *only* thing that I could possibly see useful *maybe* would be to double up the gauge of the wire from the battery negative terminal to the chassis... at least on the G35 it looks like 6 gauge which seems a bit wimpy to me. What that may do (without doing the math) is prevent a fraction of a volt drop under high current load which *may* reduce audio distortion or in some way benefit other electromechanical devices... but it'll do nothing for the ECU and other digital circtuits as Shawnd1 already pointed out.

Sunil

Again you need a lot more reading on this. There are many that have had benefit. However; I will agree most of the kits are just jumping on that bandwagon and selling pretty wire. One really need to address where they have problems and not just throw wiring in.

I'd be very surprised if the factory ground was 6g. It's usually 10g or less (higher numerically).

I added a piece of 4g to each one of my 'Big 3' (please read, google should be a big help here).

However; I am drawing up to 100amps at peak from my system (800WRMS, Class AB amp)...

 

[sunilgupta65]

please read up a bit before making "EE" claims. The Bose part is pure motherfucking LOLZ.

Yes, you are right... I need to go back to school. How can I compete with such a technically accurate and eloquently worded response such as yours? I'm so sorry.

PS, the Bose or any factory system can't compete with a properly done aftermarket - not claiming that. But the point is that I don't have the base radio and that the Bose draws significant current under load.

PPS, although off topic - a factory premium audio system will outperform 90% of the aftermarket installations out there. When I say "outperform" I don't mean topping out on an SPL meter - I mean balanced audio that is tuned for the cars interior.

Again you need a lot more reading on this. There are many that have had benefit.

Empty claims are meaningless. Are you an engineer or a scientist? (as if I have to ask - your handle says it all!). You must provide proof to support your claims. 2nd hand, 3rd hand or unscientifically conducted tests don't count.

'Big 3' (please read, google should be a big help here).

I hate when cocky bastards do this - not everyone is in on the slang & the latest street talk. Either answer the question or shut-up. But doing the search I can assume you mean you had to add grounding to your Chrysler, Ford or GM - well, serves you right for buying "Big 3".

 

[sunilgupta65]

So what is your saying about these kits 100% bunk?

I'm not saying that entirely - as alkemyst said in his own special way: some cars may benefit from it. Primarily vehicles that may not have been adequately designed or have had aftermarket parts installed that alter the current requirements.

From what I can tell by measuring the impedance of the G35 ground wire and the voltage drop from various points to the battery negative terminal, the G35 ground system is designed pretty well (i.e. there is only a barely measurable drop from the battery negative terminal to various points I checked & the resistance of the battery ground wire measured out to .6 ohm). However, I did a very quick check in freezing weather when I first came across the grounding kit threads so when the weather gets warmer I'll get the old O'Scope out and really see what's going on...

Sunil

 

[JCH13]

Empty claims are meaningless. Are you an engineer or a scientist? (as if I have to ask - your handle says it all!). You must provide proof to support your claims. 2nd hand, 3rd hand or unscientifically conducted tests don't count.

This. Also saying "it was better" without quantifiable gains is shady.

 

[hanoverphist]

I hate when cocky bastards do this - not everyone is in on the slang & the latest street talk. Either answer the question or shut-up. But doing the search I can assume you mean you had to add grounding to your Chrysler, Ford or GM - well, serves you right for buying "Big 3".

i had to look it up myself, even tho i had an idea what they were referring to... and i was correct, just never really called it the biig 3.

The big three refers to an upgraded electrical system... pretty easy to do. The three are:

Wire from battery to chassis
Engine block to chassis
Battery to alternator

Upgrading these three wire makes it easier for electricity to flow through your electrical system, which can improve your stereo's performance. It doesn't add power to your system, just makes it easier for the power to get to your amps. If you decide to do the upgrade, don't replace the current wires... just add more. I've upgraded 2 of the 3... battery to chassis and engine block to chassis. I noticed slightly better performance from my sub's amp. It's an easy and cheap upgrade to do, so it might be worthwhile for you.

this guy explained it rather well

im not gonna get into the pissing match about the problem tho, its been covered fairly thoroughly so far.

 

[sunilgupta65]

i had to look it up myself, even tho i had an idea what they were referring to... and i was correct, just never really called it the biig 3

I asked the question because also I thought it meant something else in the context of the conversation - like "amp", "alternator" and "starter".

this guy explained it rather well

... and herein you confirm what I thought in the first place (albeit with different components).

Thanks
Sunil

 

[alkemyst]

PS, the Bose or any factory system can't compete with a properly done aftermarket - not claiming that. But the point is that I don't have the base radio and that the Bose draws significant current under load.

Okay, so as an Engineer; how much does it draw? Seriously? I am a Nissan guy (by default Infinity) and most don't speak highly of the G35 Bose setup save those that upgraded from lesser factory cars.

PPS, although off topic - a factory premium audio system will outperform 90% of the aftermarket installations out there. When I say "outperform" I don't mean topping out on an SPL meter - I mean balanced audio that is tuned for the cars interior.

Well, because 90% of aftermarket is going out and buying $5 subs from the flea market and a $20 1000W RMS amp capable of driving .000001 ohms to a MegaWatt!.

Empty claims are meaningless. Are you an engineer or a scientist? (as if I have to ask - your handle says it all!). You must provide proof to support your claims. 2nd hand, 3rd hand or unscientifically conducted tests don't count.

well sort of both. I started Engineering (mechanical/civil), good enough to get an interview by MIT and Georgia Tech. I decided to go medicine and then was accepted to UF and UM's Pharmacy schools.

I had a major event at the time and just went back to work in banking. Which was something my dad started me at 12 in.

Finally did college again at 30 to pick up a Computer Science degree.

I don't know about scientific tests. I am not looking to prove a theory, I just know what's snake oil and what solves my issues.

I have been playing with cars before I was legal to drive. I am turning 40 next year.

I hate when cocky bastards do this - not everyone is in on the slang & the latest street talk. Either answer the question or shut-up. But doing the search I can assume you mean you had to add grounding to your Chrysler, Ford or GM - well, serves you right for buying "Big 3".

That's just it though, I am not trying to be 'cocky', here as some proclaimed EE you are making a statement that you simply don't need this kind of thing, that the 'ring' is the wrong design, and that your PREMIUM stereo is now better than 90% of everything out there save SPL cars.

Now that's fucking cocky.

 

[sunilgupta65]

^ Wow, I just don't know how to respond to that... I'm truly speechless.

 

[alkemyst]

^ Wow, I just don't know how to respond to that... I'm truly speechless.

just learn about whatever you are trying to reply as an expert in prior to thinking you're an expert.

Just saying "Big 3" is slang when talking car audio shows you are still in kindergarten in that arena.

 

[sunilgupta65]

PS, I wasn't conceding to your vast knowledge. My statement was tongue-in-cheek referring to the fact that you have pidgeon holed yourself as an utter moron with your reply.

just learn about whatever you are trying to reply as an expert in prior to thinking you're an expert.

Where did I claim I was an expert? I'm working through the issue trying to understand the claims from a technical and grounded (pardon the pun) level.

Just saying "Big 3" is slang when talking car audio shows you are still in kindergarten in that arena.

Yup, I guess I am from your point of view... but then every trade/hobby has it's buzz words that not everyone knows. So, if you are "in the know" then enlighten us instead of being obnoxious.

This being said - none of your inputs apply to this conversation as you have added aftermarket loads to your electrical system.


Sunil

 

[alkemyst]

like I said. Think first, post second.

nothing discussed here is 'EE' level at the base.

 

[ShawnD1]

I'd be very surprised if the factory ground was 6g. It's usually 10g or less (higher numerically).

You sure?

http://honda-eg6.blogspot.com/

This is the original 18 year flimsy old AWG 8 gauge grounding cable ;p
This is my overkill AWG 0 gauge grounding cable. A AWG4 gauge cable would have been more than enough for the grounding, but due to my ICE background, I preferred the AWG 0 gauge wires

The guy is blogging about his Honda Civic. That's the smallest car on the road 18 years ago and it still had #8 wire

 

[sunilgupta65]

like I said. Think first, post second.

Yes, words to live by ... :hmm:

nothing discussed here is 'EE' level at the base.

oh really? And just what does little 'ol you think the letters 'EE' stand for? Hint: they are not just the two middle letters in BEER :biggrin:

Once again, your statement shows your complete and total lack of knowledge.

Sunil

 

[thescreensavers]

I'm not saying that entirely - as alkemyst said in his own special way: some cars may benefit from it. Primarily vehicles that may not have been adequately designed or have had aftermarket parts installed that alter the current requirements.

From what I can tell by measuring the impedance of the G35 ground wire and the voltage drop from various points to the battery negative terminal, the G35 ground system is designed pretty well (i.e. there is only a barely measurable drop from the battery negative terminal to various points I checked & the resistance of the battery ground wire measured out to .6 ohm). However, I did a very quick check in freezing weather when I first came across the grounding kit threads so when the weather gets warmer I'll get the old O'Scope out and really see what's going on...

Sunil

Sweet, would love to know what the findings are. Thanks for doing that!

 

[alkemyst]

You sure?

http://honda-eg6.blogspot.com/

The guy is blogging about his Honda Civic. That's the smallest car on the road 18 years ago and it still had #8 wire

I said I doubted it was 6g...Also I highly doubt that guy measured his ground wire.

 

[alkemyst]

Yes, words to live by ... :hmm:



oh really? And just what does little 'ol you think the letters 'EE' stand for? Hint: they are not just the two middle letters in BEER :biggrin:

Once again, your statement shows your complete and total lack of knowledge.

Sunil

I am assuming Electrical Engineering. Nothing discussed requires one to be one or even use the old "O'scope". Simple $10 MM can do anything needed there.

 

[sunilgupta65]

I am assuming Electrical Engineering.

Yuppie! Ten points for you! So, continuing from that, Everything discussed here "at the base" has to do with Electrical Engineering.

Grounding is a fundamental of EE.
Amplifiers are a fundamental of EE.
Digital Circuits (e.g. the ECU) are a fundamental of EE.

Nothing discussed requires one to be one or even use the old "O'scope". Simple $10 MM can do anything needed there.

A lot of grounding issues can be solved with a cheap MM, but, if you really want to see the quality of your grounds, have comparative traces, see what is happening in dynamic load situations (like thumping bass), see and isolate noise sources then you do need a scope.

But, you are missing the point - of course you don't need to be an EE to work on a car. The whole point of this thread is to understand if grounding kits are necessary. To understand that you need to understand how they could help. To understand that, you need to understand the basics. Then you have to have repeatable and measurable results. An engineer or scientist can only provide answers based on quantifiable data. So, no, you don't need to be an EE but statements like "I just know what's snake oil and what solves my issues." are utterly meaningless to understanding the problem. Up to this moment I have not seen a single technically sound argument about how a grounding kit can increase HP, help with smoother shifts, etc, etc. As I have stated before, I *can* see how they could help with inadequate designs and audio, particularly aftermarket audio.

So, while I may still be in kindergarten on the niche of car audio, you aren't even there on the principles of Scientific Method (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method or whatever reputable source you trust)... and I'm approaching this problem based on those principles.

Sunil

 

[alkemyst]

Yuppie! Ten points for you! So, continuing from that, Everything discussed here "at the base" has to do with Electrical Engineering.

Grounding is a fundamental of EE.
Amplifiers are a fundamental of EE.
Digital Circuits (e.g. the ECU) are a fundamental of EE.

I was referring to the fact that none of this stuff requires you to be an EE nor would being one really help you since you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground as far as car audio goes.

A lot of grounding issues can be solved with a cheap MM, but, if you really want to see the quality of your grounds, have comparative traces, see what is happening in dynamic load situations (like thumping bass), see and isolate noise sources then you do need a scope.

But, you are missing the point - of course you don't need to be an EE to work on a car. The whole point of this thread is to understand if grounding kits are necessary. To understand that you need to understand how they could help. To understand that, you need to understand the basics. Then you have to have repeatable and measurable results. An engineer or scientist can only provide answers based on quantifiable data. So, no, you don't need to be an EE but statements like "I just know what's snake oil and what solves my issues." are utterly meaningless to understanding the problem. Up to this moment I have not seen a single technically sound argument about how a grounding kit can increase HP, help with smoother shifts, etc, etc. As I have stated before, I *can* see how they could help with inadequate designs and audio, particularly aftermarket audio.

So, while I may still be in kindergarten on the niche of car audio, you aren't even there on the principles of Scientific Method (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method or whatever reputable source you trust)... and I'm approaching this problem based on those principles.

Sunil

wow just wow at your last paragraph. You will be the life of any car meet. You go girl!

 

[Imported]

I have a grounding kit on my G35.. but I also have a pretty nice aftermarket audio system in it as well..