Grounding a detached garage and GFCI outlets

[Vette73]

How close is the garage to the breaker panel and/or outside power meter?

 

[dullard]

I say do it to code even if your contract didn't specify it. You might win in court, because it didn't explicity say it must be up to code, but you'll still be out $10k of attorney fees. Sometimes winning is still losing. But, do it as cheaply as possible up to code (meaning only one GFCI outlet is needed to satisfy what you described).

I thought capital gains were only if you sold before 2 years.

You need to live there for at least 2 of the last 5 years. If his wife has a separate house that they don't live in, then they might not qualify for that exception. Not that capital gains taxes are usually very much on a home in this market though since prices are down and since you get to first deduct most expenses on the house over the years (assuming you kept receipts).

 

[spidey07]

I say do it to code even if your contract didn't specify it. You might win in court, because it didn't explicity say it must be up to code, but you'll still be out $10k of attorney fees. Sometimes winning is still losing. But, do it as cheaply as possible up to code (meaning only one GFCI outlet is needed to satisfy what you described).

You need to live there for at least 2 of the last 5 years. If his wife has a separate house that they don't live in, then they might not qualify for that exception. Not that capital gains taxes are usually very much on a home in this market though since prices are down and since you get to first deduct most expenses on the house over the years (assuming you kept receipts).

It's a significant amount of money, and you have to pass the "residency test" - live there a total of 3 years (total) out of the last 5.

 

[spidey07]

How close is the garage to the breaker panel and/or outside power meter?

Garage is probably40 feet away on the south side of the house, panel/entrance is on the west side.

 

[dullard]

It's a significant amount of money, and you have to pass the "residency test" - live there a total of 3 years (total) out of the last 5.

1) The residency test is any 2 years out of the last 5, not 3 years. And the 2 years can be broken up into pieces.

2) This is a long term capital gain, so if you manage your way into the 15% tax bracket then the long term capital gain tax rate is 0%. This may be possible by putting most of your income into retirement plans, college plans, and/or health plans and then living for the year off of the house gains. Heck you might be able to sweet talk your employer into paying you nothing this year and double-up next year. That way, you pay no tax even if you fail the residency test. If you can't do that the tax rate still is only 15%, it isn't too bad.

3) Keep good records of all expenses. Value of the house when your wife got it (by buying or inheriting it doesn't matter, that value still gets subtracted from the gain), closing costs when you got the house, remodelling costs, real estate agent costs, etc. Many people find out that they really didn't have much gain at all to tax. Worst case scenario is 15% tax of a much reduced gain.

4) If you are in the case where there is truely a huge gain and you are stuck with the 15% capital gains tax, then you don't have much to complain about with a minor electrical wiring cost to sell the house. Paying a bit now to avoid a major tax is a great deal, I wouldn't mess that up if I were you.

 

[Vette73]

Garage is probably40 feet away on the south side of the house, panel/entrance is on the west side.

Can you not just drop a new line in the attic and run it from the box to the garage?

Run a single 12ga wire over the attic and drop it to a GFCI outlet in the garage.

 

[edro]

Can you not just drop a new line in the attic and run it from the box to the garage?

Run a single 12ga wire over the attic and drop it to a GFCI outlet in the garage.

It's detached.

 

[dullard]

It's detached.

Are overhead wires against code where spidey07 lives? The contract didn't state underground.

 

[spidey07]

Are overhead wires against code where spidey07 lives? The contract didn't state underground.

The wires are overhead on ceramic posts. I assume I'd have to do some sort of entrance protection no matter what. House was probably built in the 50s.

 

[Vette73]

It's detached.

Ahhh... yea your f__ked.

Check to see if the double ground rod will work for GFCI. If so go for it.

My shop has the 6ga running under ground and has a ground so i am lucky it was like that when I boought it.

 

[DrPizza]

If you're going to hire an electrician, I'm guessing he's not going to do work that doesn't meet current code. If you do it yourself, then pound in the solid copper rod into the ground, bond to it correctly (look it up; there's apparently a right way and a wrong way), and simply tie it into the first GFCI on the circuit. I'm hoping you've got 12/2 w/ ground wiring already in the garage, else you'll just end up replacing all the wiring. (I suppose you could run a single strand of green around the room, but it'd look ugly to me.) But, a 250 foot roll of 12/2 w/grd is about $60-70 these days; toss in half a dozen plastic boxes for 20 cents each, some wire staples, and a GFCI (for the first outlet on the run), and you're set for under $100.

I have no clue how much the grounding rods cost.

 

[boomerang]

Didn't read all the posts, but I don't think a second ground rod will do the job unless the new rod is bonded to the existing rod. Otherwise you set up a ground loop.

You'd have to trench to the existing rod and use the correct guage wire for the distance. The house and the garage must share the same ground if the garage is powered from the panel in the home.

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician.

 

[bruceb]

You do need a bonding conductor back to the main panel.
A sub panel in the garage would be the best idea.
GFCI outlets or GFCI breaker protecting them in a garage is an NEC requirement.
Most towns will not allow a certificate of occupancy unless all codes are met, which include structural, plumbing, electrical and fire.
I would suggest a new cable run from home to the garage. It would be the easiest as installing new ground rods (code requires 2 about 10 feet apart) is difficult and they must go down about 8 feet or so. Running a cable can be overhead with the correct type or use a Ditch Witch to dig a quick trench and run in the proper type of plastic electric conduit (or EMT if you prefer) .. Another option is to offer the buyer a Credit and let them take care of it.

 

[ScottMac]

I'll have to (re)dig a little, but I believe that a GFCI does not require any ground, that's why it is used as a substitute in some cases to a grounded (three prong) outlet where it was formerly a two-prong outlet.

To put in a "grounded" circuit from the house, it should tie to the same single-point facilities ground as the main service, or risk a sub-optimal / unintentional grounding path.

If you installed a sub-panel, I think it can be installed with its own ground stake and/or facilities bond.

I need to look this up, it should be in the NEC, possibly modified to a local code standard, usually toward the "more expensive" side of modification (i.e., conduit, extra stuff).

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Offer the buyer $500-$1000 and be done with it


I'm fairly sure you'd need a dedicated subpanel in my state, and even then some places are weird about power in a detached building - which is obnoxious.

 

[edro]

Correct. A GFCI does not require a ground/bond wire, but it does require a grounded neutral, done at the main panel.
Also, NEC 250.32 requires a grounding conductor back to the main panel, for detached buildings.

I don't know when this requirement was added to NEC. Since your house is that old, it may be grandfathered in... in which case the sellers are not asking to repair a code violation, but are asking to bring an old installation up to code. 2 very different things.

 

[spidey07]

Correct. A GFCI does not require a ground/bond wire, but it does require a grounded neutral, done at the main panel.

Also, NEC 250.32 requires a grounding conductor back to the main panel.

So maybe the garage could be protected by single GFCI even though it only has two physical wires to it?

 

[*kjm]

It's an old out building and was built to code at the time so where I live it's fine to be sold the way it is now.... grandfathered in. The home I bought has no GFI in the bathroom or kitchen and again is fine because wiring has never been updated for any reason and was built to code at the time.

That being said I updated my shop in the back yard. I put in a 100A sub pannel and to do it to code I trenched the wires in 24" down in PVC. I had to run the power wires and a ground from my house and ground it at the shop with its own grounding rod. I also had to use a GFI on the 110V outlets in the shop. Now if I would have left the non grounded wiring to the shop alone it would have been fine..... 25A was not enough for my woodworking shop though

Edit: Once you start changing any wiring you are opening yourself up to HAVING to update it to code!

 

[spidey07]

Electrician is out there. He confirmed only one earth ground allowed per dwelling. But the GOOD news is he read the actual home inspection report instead of the requests from the home buyer. Instead of installing a GFCI and grounding the garage (which would require running 3 lead wire back to panel, outdoors, overhead) he's simply going to take out the 3 prong outlets and replace them with two prong. The garage would remain ungrounded and that's OK and meets what was pointed out in inspection.

Up to code, meets the report, no grounding or GFCI is necessary and a lot cheaper than having to run the cable.

 

[sdifox]

When I bought my house this was an issue. Previous owner just ripped the cable to the garage out...

 

[edro]

he's simply going to take out the 3 prong outlets and replace them with two prong.

LOL, wow!
I didn't even think of that.

The new owners are gonna be pissed though.
Aren't you worried they won't buy the house since you aren't doing what they requested?