Grounding a detached garage and GFCI outlets

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Part of the repairs needed to complete the sale of my wife's house is to fix the detached garage electrical work. Right now there is only two overhead wires running to it for power, single circuit. It's an older home. Properly grounded outlets protected by a single GCFI were requested. Obviously there is only two wires running to it so I don't have a ground.

Am I allowed to just drive a true grounding stake outside the DETACHED garage to supply ground to this structure? I know it's probably a local code issue on if I can or not but just asking so the electrician doesn't charge for running overhead cable when it's not needed.

I would think a true ground for the structure via a stake would be preferable anyway.

ps - I found the common cause of GFCI outlets not tripping or testing properly (on a different repair needed), big difference between LINE and LOAD.
 
DrPizza

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
No clue. I think there's a right way and a wrong way. Your current way sounds like the wrong way (and is the same way my barn is currently wired.) A guy from an electrical supply store had a complete list for me of everything I'd need to bring it to code. It included an underground feed, a "sub panel" in there, and a separate grounding rod for the barn. Nearest I could find for you is that something changed in the NEC in 2008 concerning separate grounding; at least I saw it mentioned on two different sites. And, the two different discussions seemed to come to opposite conclusions, so I don't know which is correct & which is wrong.

A separate grounding rod would be "safe" for the garage - but I really don't think it would bring your garage up to code.
 
E

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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lol

Weird.

I wouldn't even think about asking for something like that in order to buy a house. Such a non-issue. I guess it's more about money than anything, though. Sure, it's a simple fix - but it will cost money.

Meh, something like that wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Eli said:
lol

Weird.

I wouldn't even think about asking for something like that in order to buy a house. Such a non-issue. I guess it's more about money than anything, though. Sure, it's a simple fix - but it will cost money.

Meh, something like that wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.
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It came back from the home inspection. So inspection said "garage not grounded, no GFCI protection" and they asked for it. I was ready to tell them to go pound sand but wife said we need to sell this house. And she's right.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
DrPizza said:
No clue. I think there's a right way and a wrong way. Your current way sounds like the wrong way (and is the same way my barn is currently wired.) A guy from an electrical supply store had a complete list for me of everything I'd need to bring it to code. It included an underground feed, a "sub panel" in there, and a separate grounding rod for the barn. Nearest I could find for you is that something changed in the NEC in 2008 concerning separate grounding; at least I saw it mentioned on two different sites. And, the two different discussions seemed to come to opposite conclusions, so I don't know which is correct & which is wrong.

A separate grounding rod would be "safe" for the garage - but I really don't think it would bring your garage up to code.
Click to expand...

There was no mention of code. Only that garage outlets be grounded and protected by a GFCI. As pissed as I am about it I'll drive a 8 foot rod into the ground and ground it with 8 gauge wire. There, I did what you wanted per contract, now go fuck yourself.
 
edro

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
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11thHour said:
Requiring a GFCI...in the GARAGE...in order to buy an older house??? wtf
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Most older houses didn't use ground conductors at all on branch circuits, especially out to garages.
I have a rental house that does exactly what the OP is describing.
They ran 2 conductors to the garage, through buried metal conduit.
No ground wire at all. Not even an electrical panel in the garage either.

BTW, this thread has a nice graphic: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/supplying-power-outbuilding-4-wire-awg-2-al-type-use-2-a-85126/
...for how to do it right.
 
Texashiker

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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spidey07 said:
Am I allowed to just drive a true grounding stake outside the DETACHED garage to supply ground to this structure? .
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Be sure to talk to a local electrician, but a lot of times you can drive a ground rod anywhere its needed.

Most of the time they want you to ground at the same location as the power company ground, but when that is not possible, just drive a new ground rod.

When I worked for a cable TV provider in Houston Texas, we carried 8 foot long copper clad ground rods in the utility vans. When we installed cable tv or internet to a house, and there was no central ground, we just drove a ground rod and grounded the cable to the new rod. Sometimes the cable came in on one side of the house and the power ground was on the other side of the house - just drive a new ground rod and be done with it.
 
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edro

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
I think cable companies use grounding to eliminate noise on the line and to direct large spikes (from nearby lightning) to ground.

I think the NEC wants a bonding conductor going back to the feeder panel, because it ensures the current can get back to the main breaker if there is a ground fault.
If you use a separate ground rod at the outbuilding, it is possible that the main breaker wouldn't see enough current to trip quickly enough.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,733
6,153
136
An isolated ground will be fine. Drive a ground rod, tie the GFI to it. If the wire connected to the ground rod is located such that it is subject to damage you will have to run it in flex.
 
blurredvision

blurredvision

Lifer
Oct 19, 2000
17,860
4
81
I'm no electrician so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but will another inspection be required before the buyers will sign the papers? If you do it the way you want and the inspector comes back out and says it's a no-go, then you're taking a step backwards.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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alkemyst said:
You need to find out what code you have to work with first.
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Requirements on contingency mentioned nothing about being subject to local code or adhering to it. I read the fine print and I say fuck 'em. Grounding rod it is.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
blurredvision said:
I'm no electrician so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but will another inspection be required before the buyers will sign the papers? If you do it the way you want and the inspector comes back out and says it's a no-go, then you're taking a step backwards.
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This is the fine print, they mentioned no adherence to local codes, cited none or sign off or work of a certified electrician. I'm meeting the bare requirements, per contract. Nothing more, and nothing less.
 
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Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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I like your style. ;)

I would just be worried that it somehow goes without saying that any work performed is up to code? I have no idea though, and if not, more power to you.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Eli said:
I like your style. ;)

I would just be worried that it somehow goes without saying that any work performed is up to code? I have no idea though, and if not, more power to you.
Click to expand...

Call me a corporate shill all you guys want. But I read every single line of what I sign. It been ingrained in me for 20 years.
 
alkemyst

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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Keep in mind that modifications to electrical are one of the easiest ways to deny a homeowner's insurance claim.

This is one of the main reasons in some areas almost all work has to be done by a licensed pro. It solves the post-disaster whining of some numbnuts that thought a few twists of bare wire in a metal box with some duct-tape around it was 'good enuf'.
 
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