Greenspan in favor of private accounts

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6975923/

I mean you ask the man who knows the most about our financial structure, he straight to your face tells you in the long run private accounts make much more sense than the current pay as you go approach and this is all you can come up with?

Schumer on Tuesday gave a ?pre-buttal? of Greenspan?s Wednesday morning testimony. His message: Even though Greenspan ?is a tremendously respected figure and a great chairman of the Fed and he?s been my friend for a long time,? the public should not heed his advice on Social Security private accounts.

I can understand if the democrats would say this if Bush was saying this. But we are talking about Greenspan. A man who knows more about our system than anybody in congress possibly will.

Just shakes head in disbelief. If anything this will provide fuel for the repubs in 2006 when the man says something like this

The normally placid Greenspan rose almost to the threshold of passion as he made a class-based argument by contending that private accounts would allow low-income people to become mini-capitalists ? in his view, a very good thing.

?When you have assets which you own, which you can bequeath to your children, (assets) which have your name on them, I think it is highly desirable thing, because you give wealth to people in lower- and middle-income groups who have not had it before,? he told a clearly skeptical Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y.


You cant ask for a better setup against a party who is supposed to be the champion of the lower amd middle income class of this country.

I should add my own opinion that I dont believe private accounts are the end all to this debate either. But to simply throw them out without even considering them, especially with Greenspan giving his opinion is just ideological childs play with the American people being the victim.

I dont usually start threads but I cant believe they just disregard his opinion and the facts that the system doesnt work just to deny Bush credit for changing this broken system.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
From my point of view they are attacking the wrong problem. I agree with Greenspan, I agree with Bush. I think we can do better things with our money than the government can. But so far I've seen nothing on how that will happen. I'm at the point where I'm thinking, "Ok, I agree with you...now what?" And I personally think it's a little too soon to attack the Democrats for not liking the Republican's plan...because they don't have one.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
From my point of view they are attacking the wrong problem. I agree with Greenspan, I agree with Bush. I think we can do better things with our money than the government can. But so far I've seen nothing on how that will happen. I'm at the point where I'm thinking, "Ok, I agree with you...now what?" And I personally think it's a little too soon to attack the Democrats for not liking the Republican's plan...because they don't have one.



Well, you are right, there currently is no plan, other than find the best way to transition to private accounts. The democrats completely oppose any plan to get there.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Bingo. They were for private accounts and SS reform in general when Clinton was in office. They don't want to give Bush a political win by being the one reforming SS.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Not true.

Private accounts still don't correct the funding issue. Also, the current idea of prvate accounts being capped on growth (government skims off after a certain percentage growth) doesn't seem appealing. That could be a very heavy tax if the account grows well.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D

You can thank the AARP for that.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D

You can thank the AARP for that.

You really think they are affraid of their constituents?
 

OokiiNeko

Senior member
Jun 14, 2003
508
0
0
Bingo. They were for private accounts and SS reform in general when Clinton was in office. They don't want to give Bush a political win by being the one reforming SS.

No, Clinton did something better. Started putting money aside for SS future needs and starting paying down the national debt.
Concrete, verifiable fiscal conservancy from a damn liberal.

I linked to this a few days ago. I don't post often, so should be easy for you to find. Its a .gov site.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Change of plan, folks. You might be interested in this article from the NY Times/AP.

Even Bush seems to be giving up on his dream of destroying Social Security.

Bush May Raise Payroll Tax Cap to Pay for Social Security

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: February 16, 2005

Filed at 6:34 p.m. ET

PORTSMOUTH, N.H. (AP) -- President Bush is not ruling out raising taxes on people who earn more than $90,000 as a way to help fix Social Security's finances.

At the same time, he renewed his pitch Wednesday for Congress to approve an overhaul that would include Social Security private accounts for many workers. He told 2,000 people in an airport terminal that rich and poor alike should have a chance to invest in the stock market.

``Investors aren't just Wall Street people, as far as I'm concerned,'' Bush told the crowd invited by the state's all-GOP congressional delegation. ``I think every citizen, every citizen has got the capacity to manage his or her own money.''

He gave only passing mention to options for fixing the program's long-term financial woes, but told reporters for regional newspapers on Tuesday that he isn't ruling out making more wages subject to Social Security taxes.

Asked directly, Bush said he would not bar raising the $90,000 cap, although he does not want to see the payroll tax rate go up.

``The one thing I'm not open-minded about is raising the payroll tax rate. And all the other issues go on the table,'' Bush said in the interview, according to an account in Wednesday's New Haven (Conn.) Register.

White House spokesman Trent Duffy said raising the cap on Social Security taxes is just one option among many being advocated.

``Just because he said it was an option doesn't mean he embraced it,'' Duffy added.

Under the current system, payroll taxes are paid only on the first $90,000 in wages. That ceiling rises each year with inflation -- last year it was $87,100. The Social Security tax rate is now 12.4 percent of pay, split between workers and employers.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., and other lawmakers have argued that Bush's plan for personal accounts, which will cost more than $1 trillion up front, would be more attractive to Democrats if it is financed by raising taxes on the wealthy.

If Congress did nothing but lift the cap entirely and therefore subjected all wages to the tax, Social Security would be financially balanced for 75 years, though the system would again face trouble after that, according to one economic analysis.

In New Hampshire, Bush vowed to continue to travel the country, convincing Americans the system needs fixing. He hopes they will, in turn, persuade their congressional delegation to act.

``I'm going to talk to the American people over and over and over again until the members of Congress recognize we have a problem,'' Bush said.

It's a case he must continue to make, said Senate Finance Committee Chairman Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. Asked about the mood of Senate Republicans toward the issue, he said Tuesday: ``Every member would like to see Social Security go away, but it isn't going to go away because the president won't let it go away.''

With his quick visit here, Bush has now hosted Social Security-focused forums in eight states since his Feb. 2 State of the Union address.

 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D

You can thank the AARP for that.

You really think they are affraid of their constituents?

You've no idea the kind of lobbying power the AARP has....
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Change of plan, folks. You might be interested in this article from the NY Times/AP.

Even Bush seems to be giving up on his dream of destroying Social Security.

FYI - There is no plan right now. Recall the SOTU address. Bush was pushing private accounts but said they were looking at all options to make SS solvent. There is no SS proposal on the table right now. Just talk.

And the next time Boxer, Kerry, Kennedy, Reid et all say that private accounts are dangerous or whatever, remember that member of Congress already have the option to put a portion of their SS withdrawals into private accounts.

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Greenspan is also against these huge deficits, and Republicans have ignored that completely, but when he's for private accounts, they are grabbing to his every word.
Greenspan has been ranting about the low savings rate in the US for ages. But he has also been ranting about government borrowing. These private accounts will create worker savings at the expense of government borrowing. So it's not really fixing anything, just shifting the problem around.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Greenspan is also against these huge deficits, and Republicans have ignored that completely, but when he's for private accounts, they are grabbing to his every word.
Greenspan has been ranting about the low savings rate in the US for ages. But he has also been ranting about government borrowing. These private accounts will create worker savings at the expense of government borrowing. So it's not really fixing anything, just shifting the problem around.

Private accounts are only part of fixing the problem. Probably their greatest benefit will be that they will earn a much higher rate of return than what beneficiaries would have received with just SS alone and they can transfer that money to their heirs. This is key as SS benefits will likely have to be cut (age limit increased or otherwise) years down the road.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Greenspan is also against these huge deficits, and Republicans have ignored that completely, but when he's for private accounts, they are grabbing to his every word.
Greenspan has been ranting about the low savings rate in the US for ages. But he has also been ranting about government borrowing. These private accounts will create worker savings at the expense of government borrowing. So it's not really fixing anything, just shifting the problem around.

Private accounts are only part of fixing the problem. Probably their greatest benefit will be that they will earn a much higher rate of return than what beneficiaries would have received with just SS alone and they can transfer that money to their heirs. This is key as SS benefits will likely have to be cut (age limit increased or otherwise) years down the road.

SS puts money into government bonds. If stock accounts making higher return than government bonds was a certainty, noone would buy government bonds.
People living longer is going to be a problem whether they draw money from SS or their own private account, you'll still need to spread the money over more years.
Demographics is going to be a problem whether it's SS or private account. Someone has to buy the assets in your account for you to get cash to live on. The more retirees, the higher supply of assets, the fewer workers, the lower the demand, so the prices of assets will drop, and you will get less return.
So it doesn't solve the problems, it just shifts them around.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
From my point of view they are attacking the wrong problem. I agree with Greenspan, I agree with Bush. I think we can do better things with our money than the government can. But so far I've seen nothing on how that will happen. I'm at the point where I'm thinking, "Ok, I agree with you...now what?" And I personally think it's a little too soon to attack the Democrats for not liking the Republican's plan...because they don't have one.

Exactly. Until we see the specifics, it's all just massive speculation. I personally am in favor of gaining more control over my retirement money, but I'd prefer to see the particulars of the SS reform plans before deciding if it's good or bad. Apparently, the Dems have a plan regarding SS too and their holding off on the details until the R's provide more info...
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
SS puts money into government bonds. If stock accounts making higher return than government bonds was a certainty, noone would buy government bonds.
People living longer is going to be a problem whether they draw money from SS or their own private account, you'll still need to spread the money over more years.
Demographics is going to be a problem whether it's SS or private account. Someone has to buy the assets in your account for you to get cash to live on. The more retirees, the higher supply of assets, the fewer workers, the lower the demand, so the prices of assets will drop, and you will get less return.
So it doesn't solve the problems, it just shifts them around.

SS money is spent on current retirees. Any leftover is spent on pork. SS is a ponzi scheme that matches the rate of inflation at best. Everyone would buy government bonds if otherwise.

Galveston, TX took advantage of a loophole and allowed it's city workers to invest their SS money in conservative inestment plans instead of in SS. They are enjoying payouts around four times greater than what they would have received under SS. Same with Chile. They went from a SS similar to ours to a full private plan.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D

You can thank the AARP for that.

You really think they are affraid of their constituents?

You've no idea the kind of lobbying power the AARP has....



Yup they did a bogus survery to show that people did not want SS reform(did not sample anyone below 30 and oversampled retired folks).
They call private accounts risky, but yet have 38 managed funds to sell to their members...
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SuperTool
SS puts money into government bonds. If stock accounts making higher return than government bonds was a certainty, noone would buy government bonds.
People living longer is going to be a problem whether they draw money from SS or their own private account, you'll still need to spread the money over more years.
Demographics is going to be a problem whether it's SS or private account. Someone has to buy the assets in your account for you to get cash to live on. The more retirees, the higher supply of assets, the fewer workers, the lower the demand, so the prices of assets will drop, and you will get less return.
So it doesn't solve the problems, it just shifts them around.

SS money is spent on current retirees. Any leftover is spent on pork. SS is a ponzi scheme that matches the rate of inflation at best. Everyone would buy government bonds if otherwise.

Galveston, TX took advantage of a loophole and allowed it's city workers to invest their SS money in conservative inestment plans instead of in SS. They are enjoying payouts around four times greater than what they would have received under SS. Same with Chile. They went from a SS similar to ours to a full private plan.

It doesn't scale.
If you move everyone into private accounts, it will have same problems as SS. Ultimately, the workers are the ones supporting retirees, either way you slice it. For a retiree to take the money out of the stock market, a worker has to put his savings into the stock market. Stock market is not a bank. It doesn't keep cash. Every penny taken out of the market when you sell an asset is a penny put in by someone buying your asset. It's a pay as you go system.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Question: When will democrats get it?

When it's their man in office pushing it.

Too bad there are Republican senators and congressmen who evidently don't get it either. :D

You can thank the AARP for that.

You really think they are affraid of their constituents?

You've no idea the kind of lobbying power the AARP has....



Yup they did a bogus survery to show that people did not want SS reform(did not sample anyone below 30 and oversampled retired folks).
They call private accounts risky, but yet have 38 managed funds to sell to their members...

38 piss-poor performing managed funds. Seriously, it doesn't take much research to pick a good fund or fund management company.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It doesn't scale.
If you move everyone into private accounts, it will have same problems as SS. Ultimately, the workers are the ones supporting retirees, either way you slice it. For a retiree to take the money out of the stock market, a worker has to put his savings into the stock market. Stock market is not a bank. It doesn't keep cash. Every penny taken out of the market when you sell an asset is a penny put in by someone buying your asset. It's a pay as you go system.

The investment market is not the same as SS.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It doesn't scale.
If you move everyone into private accounts, it will have same problems as SS. Ultimately, the workers are the ones supporting retirees, either way you slice it. For a retiree to take the money out of the stock market, a worker has to put his savings into the stock market. Stock market is not a bank. It doesn't keep cash. Every penny taken out of the market when you sell an asset is a penny put in by someone buying your asset. It's a pay as you go system.

The investment market is not the same as SS.

It's still a pay as you go system.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It doesn't scale.
If you move everyone into private accounts, it will have same problems as SS. Ultimately, the workers are the ones supporting retirees, either way you slice it. For a retiree to take the money out of the stock market, a worker has to put his savings into the stock market. Stock market is not a bank. It doesn't keep cash. Every penny taken out of the market when you sell an asset is a penny put in by someone buying your asset. It's a pay as you go system.

The investment market is not the same as SS.

It's still a pay as you go system.



Except you are not counting the interest that accumulates over the years.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It doesn't scale.
If you move everyone into private accounts, it will have same problems as SS. Ultimately, the workers are the ones supporting retirees, either way you slice it. For a retiree to take the money out of the stock market, a worker has to put his savings into the stock market. Stock market is not a bank. It doesn't keep cash. Every penny taken out of the market when you sell an asset is a penny put in by someone buying your asset. It's a pay as you go system.

The investment market is not the same as SS.

It's still a pay as you go system.



Except you are not counting the interest that accumulates over the years.

What interest? A stock is not a bank deposit.