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Greece budget deficits miss bailout targets- Look out Wall St!

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That adds a lot to the debate... Please feel free to share anything that will back up the position that Maastrich criteria were different pre-99.

Creative accounting took priority when it came to totting up government debt.Since 1999, the Maastricht rules threaten to slap hefty fines on euro member countries that exceed the budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product. Total government debt mustn't exceed 60 percent.

The Greeks have never managed to stick to the 60 percent debt limit, and they only adhered to the three percent deficit ceiling with the help of blatant balance sheet cosmetics. One time, gigantic military expenditures were left out, and another time billions in hospital debt. After recalculating the figures, the experts at Eurostat consistently came up with the same results: In truth, the deficit each year has been far greater than the three percent limit. In 2009, it exploded to over 12 percent.

My point is that socialism didn't create the circumventing of deficit limits, that was a purely capitalist deal. Is Greece innocent in all this? Not at all. Spidey's assertion that this problem is one of socialism misses much of what happened and why it blew up in their face. Both are to blame, but more accurately the notion of spending money you don't have is to blame. Neither socialism or capitalism are free from short sighted and destructive actions.
 
The size and scope were different, and there were different regulations for EU countries in place in 1999.

The point remains that the scale of Greece's problems have alot more to do with capitalism than socialism.

The problems Greece is facing has a lot to do with their past history (from the 70's-90's onto today's current debacle) of continued out control government spending that preceded their relationship with Goldman Sachs. This isn't the first time in history that the Greek government has gone on a socialist spending spree and found itself down a giant debt hole of their own making. This time though since the EU is stuck with Greece as member state they are being dragged along for the debilitating ride.
 
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My point is that socialism didn't create the circumventing of deficit limits, that was a purely capitalist deal. Is Greece innocent in all this? Not at all. Spidey's assertion that this problem is one of socialism misses much of what happened and why it blew up in their face. Both are to blame, but more accurately the notion of spending money you don't have is to blame. Neither socialism or capitalism are free from short sighted and destructive actions.

Oh in terms of that we're in full agreement. I may have misread your arguments as the some what clichee "wall street did it".
 
My point is that socialism didn't create the circumventing of deficit limits, that was a purely capitalist deal. Is Greece innocent in all this? Not at all. Spidey's assertion that this problem is one of socialism misses much of what happened and why it blew up in their face. Both are to blame, but more accurately the notion of spending money you don't have is to blame. Neither socialism or capitalism are free from short sighted and destructive actions.

Thank you.

What few realize is that bankers mostly act as facilitators between borrowers & investors, do their dead level best to make each look good to the others so they can take their cut off the top, leave the principals to their own devices. They will, at times, hold some of the debt as assets for whatever reasons. Sometimes they get stuck with it in sudden market epiphanies because they float lending ahead of securitization. Like this-

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GJrHfLNrRzs/Til-TsyjbAI/AAAAAAAAAIs/KSjtprELuMU/s1600/2yr-greek-bond.png

Greek bonds end up the same as toxic mortgage securities did for US banks, but the bankers got their cut off the top, which was all that mattered.

In lesser venues, it's called creative bankruptcy. In banking, it leads to bailout or nationalization.
 
Thank you.

What few realize is that bankers mostly act as facilitators between borrowers & investors, do their dead level best to make each look good to the others so they can take their cut off the top, leave the principals to their own devices. They will, at times, hold some of the debt as assets for whatever reasons. Sometimes they get stuck with it in sudden market epiphanies because they float lending ahead of securitization. Like this-

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GJrHfLNrRzs/Til-TsyjbAI/AAAAAAAAAIs/KSjtprELuMU/s1600/2yr-greek-bond.png

Greek bonds end up the same as toxic mortgage securities did for US banks, but the bankers got their cut off the top, which was all that mattered.

In lesser venues, it's called creative bankruptcy. In banking, it leads to bailout or nationalization.

I think you're missing out the other half of the puzzle - greeks got the money they wanted, someone else got the exposure to the greek market they wanted. People just need to work out Basel 3 to make sure when these sorts of bets go wrong, all the parties can absorb the losses.
 
I think you're missing out the other half of the puzzle - greeks got the money they wanted, someone else got the exposure to the greek market they wanted. People just need to work out Basel 3 to make sure when these sorts of bets go wrong, all the parties can absorb the losses.

Sounds peachy, except for the fact that banks have employed a variety of mechanisms leaving them over-exposed, unable to absorb the losses while remaining solvent. Like American banks left holding the toxic dregs of the ownership society, European banks were forced to hold debt they knew full well to be a bigger gamble than what they'd represented to investors.

You also ignore the idea that bankers often suggest venues to investors, (such a deal I have for you!), and also encourage borrowers to do so with their help and support. Modern bankers adhere to no fiduciary duty to either party other than not telling lies they can't get away with, relying heavily on the ability to exit the transaction before it winds to its conclusion, good or bad. Sometimes they get it wrong, end up holding the bag themselves.
 
My point is that socialism didn't create the circumventing of deficit limits, that was a purely capitalist deal.

Your point still doesn't jive. Socialism did in large part create this problem because the Greeks spent beyond their means and without any restraint while foolishly adhering to their pan-Hellenic socialist policies in the face of such debt. This massive spending in turn then lead the Greek government to seek advice from Goldman Sachs. Of the aforementioned, Goldman Sachs more then gladly offered their advice on how Greece could restructure their debt because this is how Goldman Sachs makes money which is by providing financial advice for a fee. In addition it was not Goldman Sachs responsibility to secure and/or guarantee the safety of this massive debt that Greece had already incurred and neither was it Goldman Sachs responsibility to play the morality police for foreign governments like Greece or to ensure that the markets would stay in favor of Greece and its actions.

Furthermore once Greece's government became ethically and morally bankrupt in its economic policies well the proverbial "shit" did indeed hit the fan when capitalism like clockwork brought the reality of their horrible economic decisions back down to reality. This is to say that capitalism did indeed work as intended because in capitalism losses (which includes incurred debt) count just as much as profits and you can't ignore losses in a capitalist market system without consequences which is what Greece and its socialist government did and it is why they have fallen into this soul sucking debt hole.

In addition one can also highlight that socialism in Greece did not prevent the circumventing of deficits either. Of which one can also easily argue that Greece's stringent adherence to their socialist economic policies that originally created this gargantuan debt continued to emphasize the problem by the continued view that Greek government officials could spend without concern while hiding their debt (Greeks have a long history of masquerading their debt), misleading their EU partners (along with most of the world) and most importantly their own citizens.

Is Greece innocent in all this? Not at all. Spidey's assertion that this problem is one of socialism misses much of what happened and why it blew up in their face. Both are to blame, but more accurately the notion of spending money you don't have is to blame. Neither socialism or capitalism are free from short sighted and destructive actions.

No actually Greece's government is to blame because they wanted to provide everyone with a proverbial "free lunch" inline with their adherence to their socialist economic policies without first ensuring they had their economic act together. They (Greece and its government) thought they could hide from this reality in a capitalist financial market and were spanked hard for doing so when the global debt bubble burst and reality arrived onto the main stage.

Of which this behavior of incurring massive debt and finding gimmicks to alleviate said debt has systemically been a economic issue with Greece mainly due to their socialist policies in government time, after time for most of the 20th (and now 21st) century. Thus as I mentioned in my previous post this has been an on going issue with Greece since before their admittance to the EU and their association with GS. Greece's socialist government has a spending problem and they need a "Doctor Drew" style intervention before their EU partners kick them to the curb along with the rest of the world.

However if Greece doesn't care about their relationship with the EU or about the fiscal malfeasance of their own economic debt well they can default on their obligations. Which if they do then Greece can finally move up in the hyperinflation record books from 5th place to 1st and push out Zimbabwe once they decide to say, "Fuck it" and screw over their creditors and citizens.
 
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Anyone else feel like the whole thing is a giant psuedo pyramid scheme at this point?

Germany and others are willing to funnel tons of cash into the system to stop Greece from defaulting. They're actually willing to put more money in than Greece owes since I'm sure they're worried that Spain and Italy will topple shortly after if Greece does.

I wish I was more of an expert on the subject but this idea of "too big to fail" seems to have put the US in a bigger mess. I struggle to believe that if we had let our bad banks fail that others wouldn't have come in and filled the void. Wouldn't it help the global economy if businesses and countries saw that if you fuck up there are consequences. Let Greece default. The economic model of "take the upside but don't accept the downside" isn't working. No more investing in things that don't make money, waste tons of money, don't make a profit, and are completely unstable.

How many years are we going to keep dealing with all this economic bullshit? Die already. The Euro is over valued, housing is over valued, and Greece should default and spend 50 years learning from it's mistake. Greece was greedy.
 
Most people on this forum ignore they obvious reason why they are in the Red is because they bought a shitload of TOXIC CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS FROM THE US BANKSand when the housing bubble imploded all hell broke loose....Thanks again Wall Street you greedy fucking bastards.
 
Most people on this forum ignore they obvious reason why they are in the Red is because they bought a shitload of TOXIC CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS FROM THE US BANKSand when the housing bubble imploded all hell broke loose....Thanks again Wall Street you greedy fucking bastards.

Greece has been running large deficits for decades. They have had a debt to gdp ratio of ~100% for 20 years. Then they tried to hide their spending through creative accounting.

Greece spent too much is the problem.
 
Greece has been running large deficits for decades. They have had a debt to gdp ratio of ~100% for 20 years. Then they tried to hide their spending through creative accounting.

Greece spent too much is the problem.

So Credit Default swaps or buying Subprime Mortgage derivatives had nothing to do with it?


http://www.insidersstrategygroup.com/tpg/taipan-daily/taipan-daily-062211.html

The Greek Debt Crisis

The generally understood fear is that a Greek default could lead to a "domino chain" of other defaults. If Greece goes down, so does Portugal. Then Ireland, then Spain and so on, until it is "game over" for the eurozone.

That path of events could certainly unfold. But it is not the only way disaster could strike. What is frightening is that, as with Lehman, there are other ways the whole financial system could melt down -- thanks to our old friend complexity.

Take, for example, the "Credit Default Swap," or CDS. A credit default swap is a form of insurance against a debt obligation going bad. It was the indiscriminate selling of CDS that blew up AIG in the 2008 financial crisis.

AIG was happy to collect tiny premiums (pennies on the dollar) selling insurance on the subprime mortgage market, thinking it was "free money" because disaster would never happen. Wall Street banks, meanwhile, were dumping CDS obligations on AIG as fast as they could.

Now we have a repeat situation with European sovereign debt. Just as AIG sold CDS insurance on subprime, American banks have been selling hundreds of billions in default insurance to European banks, in the form of CDS on various periphery countries like Greece.

Here is some more information how Wall Street was involved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis

From late 2009, fears of a sovereign debt crisis developed among fiscally conservative investors concerning some European states, with the situation becoming particularly tense in early 2010.[1][2] This included eurozone members Greece,[3] Ireland, Spain and Portugal and also some EU countries outside the area.[4] Iceland, the country which experienced the largest crisis in 2008 when its entire international banking system collapsed has emerged less affected by the sovereign debt crisis as the government was unable to bail the banks out. In the EU, especially in countries where sovereign debts have increased sharply due to bank bailouts, a crisis of confidence has emerged with the widening of bond yield spreads and risk insurance on credit default swaps between these countries and other EU members, most importantly Germany.[5][6]

300px-Sovereign_credit_default_swaps.png


There are valid reasons why people are protesting Wall Street greed that almost brought down the World's Financial markets.
 
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So Credit Default swaps or buying Subprime Mortgage derivatives had nothing to do with it?


http://www.insidersstrategygroup.com/tpg/taipan-daily/taipan-daily-062211.html

The Greek Debt Crisis

The generally understood fear is that a Greek default could lead to a "domino chain" of other defaults. If Greece goes down, so does Portugal. Then Ireland, then Spain and so on, until it is "game over" for the eurozone.

That path of events could certainly unfold. But it is not the only way disaster could strike. What is frightening is that, as with Lehman, there are other ways the whole financial system could melt down -- thanks to our old friend complexity.

Take, for example, the "Credit Default Swap," or CDS. A credit default swap is a form of insurance against a debt obligation going bad. It was the indiscriminate selling of CDS that blew up AIG in the 2008 financial crisis.

AIG was happy to collect tiny premiums (pennies on the dollar) selling insurance on the subprime mortgage market, thinking it was "free money" because disaster would never happen. Wall Street banks, meanwhile, were dumping CDS obligations on AIG as fast as they could.

Now we have a repeat situation with European sovereign debt. Just as AIG sold CDS insurance on subprime, American banks have been selling hundreds of billions in default insurance to European banks, in the form of CDS on various periphery countries like Greece.

Here is some more information how Wall Street was involved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis

From late 2009, fears of a sovereign debt crisis developed among fiscally conservative investors concerning some European states, with the situation becoming particularly tense in early 2010.[1][2] This included eurozone members Greece,[3] Ireland, Spain and Portugal and also some EU countries outside the area.[4] Iceland, the country which experienced the largest crisis in 2008 when its entire international banking system collapsed has emerged less affected by the sovereign debt crisis as the government was unable to bail the banks out. In the EU, especially in countries where sovereign debts have increased sharply due to bank bailouts, a crisis of confidence has emerged with the widening of bond yield spreads and risk insurance on credit default swaps between these countries and other EU members, most importantly Germany.[5][6]

300px-Sovereign_credit_default_swaps.png


There are valid reasons why people are protesting Wall Street greed that almost brought down the World's Financial markets.

When you run as high a deficit as greece has for as long as they have. This is the result. Unable to pay your bills. The housing market and banking crisis only brought the issue forward. On top of that is appears Greece was greasing the numbers to get into the EU. Their deficit spending was much higher than they originally claimed.
 
When you run as high a deficit as greece has for as long as they have. This is the result. Unable to pay your bills. The housing market and banking crisis only brought the issue forward. On top of that is appears Greece was greasing the numbers to get into the EU. Their deficit spending was much higher than they originally claimed.

Yes with the help of Goldman Sachs so they buy more CDS's too.
 
Who buys more CDS?

you are fighting a lost cause....it is obvious that he doesn't think having most of your workforce as government employees and providing significantly more in benefits than you are collecting in taxes is even remotely part of their problem...he wants to blame the WHOLE thing on wall street greed...
 
Who buys more CDS?

Short memory retention?


http://www.businessinsider.com/gold...bt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

Goldman Sachs arranged swaps that effectively allowed Greece to borrow 1 billion Euros without adding to its official public debt. While it arranged the swaps, Goldman also sought to buy insurance on Greek debt and engage in other trades to protect itself against the risk of a default on those swaps. Eventually, Goldman sold the swaps to the national bank of Greece.

Despite its role in creating swaps that may have allowed the Greek government to mask its growing debts, Goldman has no net exposure to a default on Greek debt, a person familiar with the matter says.

Goldman is “flat” when it comes to Greece, the person said. Which is to say, its long and short exposure to a potential Greek default are in balance.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/gold...ranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2#ixzz1Zjdk8EBA

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a8wj2A4RttMQ

Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- “Goldman Sachs, Greece Didn’t Disclose Swap Contract” leads a selection of top stories from Bloomberg News in the past week.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. managed $15 billion of bond sales for Greece after arranging a currency swap that allowed the government to hide the extent of its deficit. German Chancellor Angela Merkel said it would be a “scandal” if banks helped Greece massage its budget. Click here for more stories on Greece’s debt crisis.
 
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you are fighting a lost cause....it is obvious that he doesn't think having most of your workforce as government employees and providing significantly more in benefits than you are collecting in taxes is even remotely part of their problem...he wants to blame the WHOLE thing on wall street greed...

I wasn't aware that was my main premise.
 
Short memory retention?


http://www.businessinsider.com/gold...bt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

Goldman Sachs arranged swaps that effectively allowed Greece to borrow 1 billion Euros without adding to its official public debt. While it arranged the swaps, Goldman also sought to buy insurance on Greek debt and engage in other trades to protect itself against the risk of a default on those swaps. Eventually, Goldman sold the swaps to the national bank of Greece.

Despite its role in creating swaps that may have allowed the Greek government to mask its growing debts, Goldman has no net exposure to a default on Greek debt, a person familiar with the matter says.

Goldman is “flat” when it comes to Greece, the person said. Which is to say, its long and short exposure to a potential Greek default are in balance.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/gold...ranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2#ixzz1Zjdk8EBA

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a8wj2A4RttMQ

Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- “Goldman Sachs, Greece Didn’t Disclose Swap Contract” leads a selection of top stories from Bloomberg News in the past week.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. managed $15 billion of bond sales for Greece after arranging a currency swap that allowed the government to hide the extent of its deficit. German Chancellor Angela Merkel said it would be a “scandal” if banks helped Greece massage its budget. Click here for more stories on Greece’s debt crisis.

So the greeks cheated with the help of Goldman Sachs. Who do you have beef with? The bank who helped them cheat or the cheaters?

It really doesnt matter anyways, at the end of the day the problem is Greece spent too much and now cant pay its debt. The EU will have to do more dilligence before letting more members within their ranks. Greece provided the framework to dupe them and stick them with a revolving door of debt crisis.
 
So the greeks cheated with the help of Goldman Sachs. Who do you have beef with? The bank who helped them cheat or the cheaters?

It really doesnt matter anyways, at the end of the day the problem is Greece spent too much and now cant pay its debt. The EU will have to do more dilligence before letting more members within their ranks. Greece provided the framework to dupe them and stick them with a revolving door of debt crisis.

They were both at fault in my opinion but if you look at the chart most of Europe was also buying that toxic crap but as we all know Greece was by far the most out of control European country.
 
The Greeks hold the power here, hence they can reneg on past promises. They may be the debtor, but if they default, then banks all over Europe are likely to implode from Greek exposure.
 
so the stock market is down 2%+ today. is it because of this news on Greece?

if not, then what?
 
This,
they will have zero purchasing power going forward, but they'll be ever so exciting by sticking it to the "man".

It's not about sticking it to "The Man", its about them acknowledging reality.

Their debt-to-GDP is around 150% and growing fast - their targets for deficit reduction are in terms of GDP, but the austerity measures are causing a drop in GDP and making the targets even harder to reach. Soon, they'll be in unexplored debt territory. There simply isn't a way they'll ever repay that debt.

I don't know when it became "socialism" to believe that one should reap both the rewards and losses of one's risks, but it's time for those who took the risk to take the losses.
 
They were both at fault in my opinion but if you look at the chart most of Europe was also buying that toxic crap but as we all know Greece was by far the most out of control European country.

I don't think you really know what you're talking about...

Here's a hint: the euro sovereign debt has nothing to do with "toxic" derivatives.
 
I wasn't aware that was my main premise.


Decades of socialism and yet you claim the obvious reason is Wall Street...

Most people on this forum ignore they obvious reason why they are in the Red is because they bought a shitload of TOXIC CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS FROM THE US BANKSand when the housing bubble imploded all hell broke loose....Thanks again Wall Street you greedy fucking bastards.
 
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