Greece about to default

[AtenRa]

While that is obviously devastating to small, cash-only entrepreneurs, doesn't that actually solve some problems with Greeks dodging taxes? Assuming Tsipras is so minded, anyway, because electronic transfers inherently leave trails and thus people running cash-only businesses to dodge taxes are pretty much busted as long as Greece's leadership has the political will to enforce the tax laws.

Businesses are allowed to make transactions with cash up to 300.00 Euros. For larger amounts you need to make a bank transfer or use a bank draft.

edit: Im not talking about retail.

 

[theeedude]

No, I'm coming to the conclusion that a train wreck is less bad than a plane crash. Again, austerity is more than simply spending less, it's changing the socioeconomic system to be sustainable. If Greece can satisfy the rest of the EU nations, many of whom have gone through substantial economic pain, that they are making the changes required to make their system sustainable (self-supporting) over the (reasonably short) long run, then Greece can borrow more money. So far Greece has not done so. Thus Greece has run out of other people's money. There. Is. No. More. Money.

Greece has been inflicted far more austerity on than other European nations. It made the situation worse. Austerity. Does. Not. Work.

 

[glenn1]

Austerity. Does. Not. Work.

Creditors. Do. Not. Care. What. You. Think.

They. Have. The. Money. And. That's. All. That. Matters.

 

[Turkish]

But that was my point - that if Greeks having "freedom of movement" within the EU becomes a problem as WelshBloke implied it would be, then that freedom of movement could and would be curtailed. Nations are generally not suicidal, and treaties which prove to be truly problematic can and will be scrapped.

Maybe, not sure.

But what purpose would it serve to limit the freedom of movement for Greek citizens when you are unable to kick the them out of the Union? As I've said, Greece itself will have to ratify any amendment that lets the rest of the Union kick it out. Besides, with around half a million other-EU citizens living in Greece (mostly British and German retirees I assume), them moving elsewhere or getting the necessary permits to stay in Greece (due to the lovely Greek bureaucracy) would be a logistical nightmare.

I believe sooner or later Greece will be kicked out of the EZ, if they don't leave it themselves, but kicking Greece out of EU I hardly find plausible.

 

[Turkish]

Creditors. Do. Not. Care. What. You. Think.

They. Have. The. Money. And. That's. All. That. Matters.

I believe they do care. Otherwise why all the fuss?

By the way, don't take this the wrong way. I am not suggesting Greece shouldn't be held responsible for it's debt (at least most of it), but at this stage it's pointless to discuss who cares and who does not. The past 5 or so months has been waste of time on both ends and they need to find a solution that suits both sides. My personal opinion is that the single currency system is a failed experiment as you cannot have a one-size fits all interest rate for countries with structurally different economies and unless the system is not modified intelligently, the next bail out will not be for a country but the Euro itself.

 

[fskimospy]

You persist in pretending that austerity is a switch one flips or doesn't, depending on one's favored economic theory. That is simply untrue. I am all for Greece spending more than they take in to get out of recession. The problem is that, unlike Ireland (and Spain, and Portugal), Greece has not made the systemic reforms necessary to convince lenders to loan them more money. Austerity is more than simply spending less, it's changing the socioeconomic system to be sustainable.

The European nations want Greece to be a successful nation. Everyone here at AT wants Greece to be a successful nation. But unless Greece comes up with something better than "you forgive the money we promised to pay back and give us tens of billions more until a miracle happens", loaning more money to Greece is simply throwing good money after bad. Europe cannot save Greece unless Greece helps save itself, and so far that has not happened to a sufficient extent. And that's not my analysis, it's the analysis of the IMF and the EU and the EC, as well as private investors. You can froth and foam as much as you please about austerity, but the fact is that Greece has not changed enough to make the largely socialist European states comfortable with sending more of their citizens' wealth to Greece.

It's funny when you make up new definitions for words when you realize your position is stupid.

 

[werepossum]

Lol. Right so your "cheaply" option is to renegotiate the founding agreements of the EU and get all the member states to agree on them?

Well if the Greek state was doing it I guess that would spark off a war otherwise it would be like the IRA in the UK. We didn't stop all Irish people's freedom of movement, you just up security and target the bombers.

But let's face it when your thinking is getting this ridiculous it's probably a sign that you're in a hole and that you need to stop digging.

Remember that this was in response to your assertion that Greeks being free to move about the EU nations and work in other nations was a problem. Most people recognize that this is highly unlikely to be a problem, which is why I posited hundreds of suicide bombers - a clearly implausible scenario that would make this freedom of movement a problem. Therefore extraordinary measures would be called for - and would be implemented. Short of such a scenario, Greeks would be exactly as any other EU member nationality; the fact that their nation would be out of the EZ is immaterial to their employers.

EDIT: Hell, your own kingdom's workers are not in the EZ. Is your freedom of movement a problem?

Businesses are allowed to make transactions with cash up to 300.00 Euros. For larger amounts you need to make a bank transfer or use a bank draft.

edit: Im not talking about retail.

How does that work with cash-only resorts? Do you pay separately every day? Or does that fall under retail?

Greece has been inflicted far more austerity on than other European nations. It made the situation worse. Austerity. Does. Not. Work.

Because Greece's fundamentals were in far worse shape than any other EU nation's. Honestly, you guys act as though Greece simply lost a coin toss and thus had austerity inflicted upon them.

 

[werepossum]

It's funny when you make up new definitions for words when you realize your position is stupid.

Hey, could be worse. I could just deny reality and pretend that everyone else is stupid and naive, including those people running successful nations and controlling hundreds of billions of euros.

 

[WelshBloke]

Remember that this was in response to your assertion that Greeks being free to move about the EU nations and work in other nations was a problem. Most people recognize that this is highly unlikely to be a problem, which is why I posited hundreds of suicide bombers - a clearly implausible scenario that would make this freedom of movement a problem.

By a problem I meant that if vast amounts of Greek youths leave Greece to work in other countries it's going to fuck up the Greek economy even more. I don't see why that would be that unlikely a situation. I'm not sure where you got the hundreds of suicide bombers from.

Therefore extraordinary measures would be called for - and would be implemented. Short of such a scenario, Greeks would be exactly as any other EU member nationality; the fact that their nation would be out of the EZ is immaterial to their employers.

So no, no one's going to be stopping the Greeks freedom to live and work anywhere in the EU. Cheaply or otherwise.

EDIT: Hell, your own kingdom's workers are not in the EZ. Is your freedom of movement a problem?

The UK isn't in the same situation as Greece, there is no pressure on people to leave the country en mass to find work or claim benefits.

 

[WelshBloke]

Hey, could be worse. I could just deny reality and pretend that everyone else is stupid and naive, including those people running successful nations and controlling hundreds of billions of euros.

Or you could just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just having some wierd knee jerk anti socialist attack that you seem to want to share with everyone.

 

[theeedude]

Creditors. Do. Not. Care. What. You. Think.

They. Have. The. Money. And. That's. All. That. Matters.

I guess they don't care about getting their money back either, since they insist on crashing the economy of their debtor with austerity and making repaying of their own debt unsustainable.

 

[werepossum]

Or you could just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just having some wierd knee jerk anti socialist attack that you seem to want to share with everyone.

Or as the IMF, EU, and EZ leadership call it, reality.

 

[WelshBloke]

Or as the IMF, EU, and EZ leadership call it, reality.

Yes, quite clearly you and the EU are as one voice on this issue. 🙄

 

[Enigmoid]

I guess they don't care about getting their money back either, since they insist on crashing the economy of their debtor with austerity and making repaying of their own debt unsustainable.

There is little evidence that that money would be payed back.

 

[MongGrel]

Creditors. Do. Not. Care. What. You. Think.

They. Have. The. Money. And. That's. All. That. Matters.

This.

 

[WelshBloke]

This.

Except in this case the creditors do care about a lot more than just the money.

 

[werepossum]

Except in this case the creditors do care about a lot more than just the money.

Agreed. Problem for Greece is that those creditors have pretty much reached the limit of what they are willing to pay for those other things.

 

[werepossum]

Yes, quite clearly you and the EU are as one voice on this issue. 🙄

Of course the EU and I are as one voice on this issue, because I am merely pointing out the EU position. I have no dog in the fight except for an irritation at those too far left to admit that at some point there is no more money to be borrowed. If the EU reverses its decision and loans Greece more money, that's great; I have no interest in seeing Greece fall into poverty and misery. If Greece is forced to drop off the euro and go its own way, that is great too. The Greeks will probably be better off in the long run than sharing a currency with those with whom they cannot compete. No Greek ever did anything to me or for me. Ditto with the Germans, Poles, French, Spanish, etc. I fully support their right to give their money to Greece, or not, as they see best. If they decide the best use of their countrymen's earnings is to flow to Greece in perpetuity, I have lost nothing. You guys on the far left confuse observing reality with preferring this particular outcome. I understand it and sympathize with it; I have no preference either way.

I DO of course have a vested interest in American proggies understanding that at some point, one has borrowed all the money that one can borrow. But that isn't going to happen either way.

 

[TheSlamma]

I guess they don't care about getting their money back either, since they insist on crashing the economy of their debtor with austerity and making repaying of their own debt unsustainable.

Euros for Gyros

 

[Turkish]

From the BBC:

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has admitted that the IMF is correct is saying Greece needs a haircut to cope with its debt - then poured cold water on the haircut.

He told a press conference in Frankfurt: "Debt sustainability is not feasible without a haircut and I think the IMF is correct in saying that."

But: "There cannot be a haircut because it would infringe the system of the European Union."

Schaeuble did say that in the absence of a haircut "reprofiling" of debt was a possibility, but leeway to do it was limited.

"I think the leeway we have ... is very low," he said, adding that he was 'sceptical' much could be done.

 

[unokitty]

I'm with Yanis.

No money for Greece until the German, and other European, people get to vote on whether or not they want to pay more taxes to support Greece's lifestyle!

Like Yanis says:
"Let the people decide."

Uno

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm with Yanis.

No money for Greece until the German, and other European, people get to vote on whether or not they want to pay more taxes to support Greece's lifestyle!

Like Yanis says:
"Let the people decide."

Uno

Who says they gotta pay more taxes? Just hit the printing presses.

 

[theeedude]

Looks like Eurocrats are coming to their senses:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-offi...osals-must-be-matched-by-creditors-1436440668

BRUSSELS—European institutions piled pressure on Greece and the rest of the eurozone to reach a deal that would keep the country in the currency union, with officials indicating that serious overhaul proposals from Athens could be followed by debt relief.

Donald Tusk, who presides over talks between European leaders, Thursday called on eurozone countries to make Greece’s debt more manageable—as long as Athens presents “realistic proposals” on how to get its economy growing again.

“Realistic proposal from Athens needs to be matched by realistic proposal from creditors on debt sustainability to create win-win situation,” Mr. Tusk said in a message from his official Twitter account following a meeting with Luxembourg Prime Minister Xavier Bettel.

His comments are the strongest call yet from a senior European Union official for some form of debt relief for Greece. They come just days ahead of a crisis summit of EU leaders that has been branded as make-or-break for Greece’s future in the eurozone.

If they came to this simple conclusion a month ago, could have saved themselves tens of billions of extra write offs due to the Greek economy worsening from banks being shut down. But hey, better late then never.

 

[Turkish]

Looks like Eurocrats are coming to their senses:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-offi...osals-must-be-matched-by-creditors-1436440668



If they came to this simple conclusion a month ago, could have saved themselves tens of billions of extra write offs due to the Greek economy worsening from banks being shut down. But hey, better late then never.

Tusk has also stated yesterday or the day before something along the lines of "We as bureaucrats cannot have the burden of a humanitarian crisis in Greece, we cannot be remembered as those who failed the European Union." He probably won't be seated at that post for long.

 

[waggy]

I guess they don't care about getting their money back either, since they insist on crashing the economy of their debtor with austerity and making repaying of their own debt unsustainable.

lol yeah if greece would be just left alone they would be able to pay back all loans with interest!

they just need to leave them to do it how they want!



hah