Greece about to default

[chucky2]

And whats wrong with Africans?

Nothing. My point is Greeks, nor anyone else, are special. If Africans can live poorly yet still exist, so can Greeks who are already better off. Just because they can't continue to be subsidized the good life (or, a better life than they earned for themselves) doesn't mean money should be taken from others so Greeks can be happy (or happier than they should be allowed to enjoy given their situation). Let them enjoy the fruits of their decisions...

 

[werepossum]

I'm not sure what this means or what you think it means. Also, it is not at all notable that countries in bad economic shape have large deficits, you just might not have a good grasp of which way the chain of causation goes.

I assume you mean primary surplus. It looks like you've just decided to keep up the ideological ranting. Shocking.

Yep, meant primary surplus, which is as accurate as all the economic figures Greece reports. As far as ideological ranting, I'm not the one saying we should keep doing what has failed for years.

Except they hold EU citizenship...

Which may soon end. Kicking out Greece for non-payment might solve some future problems for the EU.

greece will become the north korea of europe. A new fat man will come to rule all.

I suspect you are correct. Greeks are working their way through those willing to tell them they can spend more than they earn, and communism and/or dictatorship can't be far away.

 

[bshole]

Yep, meant primary surplus, which is as accurate as all the economic figures Greece reports. As far as ideological ranting, I'm not the one saying we should keep doing what has failed for years.


Which may soon end. Kicking out Greece for non-payment might solve some future problems for the EU.


I suspect you are correct. Greeks are working their way through those willing to tell them they can spend more than they earn, and communism and/or dictatorship can't be far away.

I don't know but attacking the pensions of old people on fixed incomes who paid in for their entire lives seems a bit draconian. It certainly is a horrible situation and I hope they can come through and remain a viable country.

 

[werepossum]

I don't know but attacking the pensions of old people on fixed incomes who paid in for their entire lives seems a bit draconian. It certainly is a horrible situation and I hope they can come through and remain a viable country.

Nobody is attacking those pensions, just pointing out that Greece has promised more than they can deliver and the rest of Europe is getting tired of meeting those promises.

 

[unokitty]

If the Greeks made a decent effort at ending corruption or collecting taxes, I might be more sympathetic. But they don't. Tax evasion and political corruption are normal in Greece.

According to Transparency International's Global Corruption Barometer 2013, 90% of surveyed households consider political parties to be corrupt or extremely corrupt—ranking as the most corrupt institution in Greece. Furthermore, 39% of the surveyed households believe that the level of corruption has increased a lot, and 46% of surveyed households find government efforts in the fight against corruption to be very ineffective...

The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks.[20] The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying "Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros".

Still, if anyone wants to donate to Greece, you can do so at the Greek Bailout Fund site.

At the same time, I can't help but be aware that this wouldn't be the first, second, third, or fourth Greek default. The world didn't end the first few times Greece defaulted nor did the country disappear...

I have confidence in the Greek people.

Confidence in Greek politicians, not so much...

Uno

 

[Charmonium]

If the Greeks made a decent effort at ending corruption or collecting taxes, I might be more sympathetic. But they don't. Tax evasion and political corruption are normal in Greece.

I didn't realize things were quite that bad but those are some amazing numbers. Still, even if they collected every last dime of what they are owed, the total debt is more than 360B euros or basically 10 times that amount.

It makes you wonder if, even with support from the IMF and ECB, if there would EVER be an endgame that didn't involve creditors taking a huge haircut.

 

[Zorkorist]

Government has failed these people, and there is only more government to come.

-John

 

[Michael]

Although it sounds bad to cut the existing pensions of older Greeks, they never did pay in to support the pay outs they are getting now.

The society is corrupt. They do not pay taxes and this is considered normal and acceptable.

I think Greeks living and working outside of Greece do so as they are part of the EU. If they not only were kicked out of the Euro (you can be in the EU and have your own currency) but were kicked out of the EU as well, then they would need work visas instead of having the right to work and live anywhere in the EU. they are not EU citizens, they are Greek citizens and Greece is part of the EU.

Michael

 

[Zorkorist]

A little hustle and go-go, will be good for grandpa and grandma.

-John

 

[ThatsABigOne]

Here is a barbaric food for thought; Germany should invade Greece and acquire property, IP, and tourist destinations.

 

[nickqt]

Here is a barbaric food for thought; Germany should invade Greece and acquire property, IP, and tourist destinations.

Invading a country with an actual presence is barbaric, considering the barbarians are a lot smarter now and use finance to privatize public assets and then purchase them for Euro Cents on the Euro.

 

[Ns1]

Invading a country with an actual presence is barbaric, considering the barbarians are a lot smarter now and use finance to privatize public assets and then purchase them for Euro Cents on the Euro.

I see what you did there.

 

[glenn1]

Invading a country with an actual presence is barbaric, considering the barbarians are a lot smarter now and use finance to privatize public assets and then purchase them for Euro Cents on the Euro.

I see what you did there.

He could have said for drachmas on the Euro, but everyone knows the former won't be worth shit.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Any Greeks on this forum? What's your opinion?

 

[bshole]

Any Greeks on this forum? What's your opinion?

Do fanciers of Greek sex count?

 

[Charmonium]

The shit is about to hit the fan in Greece. The banks are reportedly down to their last €500M. So there is no way the banks can reopen next week. Additionally, the ECB has restricted their lending to those banks.

http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-banks-only-have-500-million-euros-left-2015-7

Greek banks are down to their last 500 million euros.

Writing in The Telegraph on Thursday, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard cites the head of the Hellenic Chambers of Commerce, who told The Telegraph that, "We are reliably informed that the cash reserves of the banks are down to €500m. Anybody who thinks they are going to open again on Tuesday is day-dreaming. The cash would not last an hour."

Greek banks are currently closed, and the government has implemented capital controls limiting the amount of money people can take out of ATMs.

Banks are set to remain closed through at least next Monday. Currently, the European Central Bank has capped the amount of liquidity available to Greek banks through the ECB's emergency lending program. While Greece has worked to cap outflows in the interim, it seems reserves are running dry.

 

[Murloc]

Although it sounds bad to cut the existing pensions of older Greeks, they never did pay in to support the pay outs they are getting now.

The society is corrupt. They do not pay taxes and this is considered normal and acceptable.

I think Greeks living and working outside of Greece do so as they are part of the EU. If they not only were kicked out of the Euro (you can be in the EU and have your own currency) but were kicked out of the EU as well, then they would need work visas instead of having the right to work and live anywhere in the EU. they are not EU citizens, they are Greek citizens and Greece is part of the EU.

Michael

the first two paragraphs are true (except maybe the normal and acceptable part, it takes just 10% of the population that evades taxes to create damage, that doesn't mean the middle class considers it acceptable).

The last not so much.

Under the free movement of labour regime, you can get your work permit automatically once you have a contract, and you don't need a tourist visa to get in in the first place, so it's all very easy, but you still get a permit.

And even if a country exits the free movement area, permits acquired under those agreements cannot be taken away as stated by the treaty, they are acquired rights.

Also being in the EU is not a requirement to be in the Schengen zone: Switzerland and Norway are in the zone but not in the EU.
So Greece can exit the EU but stay inside most of the agreements (european economic space, schengen, dublin etc.).

Last but not least, the treaties aren't very clear so the policians will just bend everything and Greece will stay in the EU, regardless of what happens, because it doesn't make sense to kick a country out as a "punishment" of sort, not even the eurocrats are this dumb.

 

[boomerang]

 

[waggy]

I'm reading on some sites that Greece voted NO to the vote. should be interesting.

 

[AtenRa]

Greek people Today voted NO to more Αusterity measures that destroyed the economy.
Greeks Today voted YES to Reforms and for Growth measures.

And just to get it straight, The Greek people will pay every cent they got as a loan, but they will do so by Growth of the Economy, like Germany did after the Second World War, and not by inhumane High Taxation forced in a destroyed economy by the EU Austerity measures.

Also to point out that, nobody in the EU can force another country to leave the Union just because it suits their needs or plans. Only each country themselves can leave the EU by their own will.


ps: Switzerland and Norway are not in the European Union.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/euro/index_en.htm

 

[brianmanahan]

hey, maybe i can spend my tetradrachm now!

 

[LegendKiller]

Greek people Today voted NO to more Αusterity measures that destroyed the economy.
Greeks Today voted YES to Reforms and for Growth measures.

And just to get it straight, The Greek people will pay every cent they got as a loan, but they will do so by Growth of the Economy, like Germany did after the Second World War, and not by inhumane High Taxation forced in a destroyed economy by the EU Austerity measures.

Also to point out that, nobody in the EU can force another country to leave the Union just because it suits their needs or plans. Only each country themselves can leave the EU by their own will.


ps: Switzerland and Norway are not in the European Union.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/euro/index_en.htm

Let's be serious here. The Greek people can't repay the debt, it is impossible. You guys have almost no economy relative to the debt you owe. Your Target2 payments are even bigger.

The austerity is needed, your pubic social works programs are simply too rich for your own good. Your retirement age too low. Your pensions too high. Your tax receipts too low because of people dodging them and corruption in the government prevent them from being enforced.

You would be in this situation inside or outside the Euro, as you have been multiple times in the past.

That being said, I am happy the Greeks voted no. The debt needs to be written down, austerity needs to kick in, and a country that shouldn't have been in the Euro should be kicked out.

Then, maybe, you guys will realize you can't depend on a stable currency to create more "wealth" than you owe.

One last thing - a lot of investors are fucking morons. Sadly I see it more than I should. People who reach for yield, don't do their due diligence, and savers pay the ultimate price. You can't catch everything but usually you can spot bad debt investment pretty quickly and sell it to reduce your losses. I've seen some horrible investments that stood out as very obvious ones but people grabbed for the yield anyway.

 

[Charmonium]

Thanks for the info gents. This was the outcome that Syriza was recommending iirc.

The problem with this though is that Greece has precious few Euros left and can't get any more now with this vote. So they really have no choice but to go back to the drachma. But isn't this going to take weeks or months to accomplish? And what are people going to do in the meantime?

 

[Greenman]

Why can't Greece default on it's debts and use it's tax base to run the country as usual? Obviously, their budget would have to be balanced, but that should be easy as there would be no interest piling up. It seems to be the direction they are headed in, and it gives them back control of their economy.

 

[Charmonium]

hey, maybe i can spend my tetradrachm now!

If you have an original one that's in good condition, you should be able to get at least several hundred bucks for it.

It will be interesting to see what the euro/drachma exchange rate is going to be.