Great column by George Will on charitable giving

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Bleeding Hearts but Tight Fists

By George F. Will
Thursday, March 27, 2008; A17

Residents of Austin, home of Texas's government and flagship university, have very refined social consciences, if they do say so themselves, and they do say so, speaking via bumper stickers. Don R. Willett, a justice of the state Supreme Court, has commuted behind bumpers proclaiming "Better a Bleeding Heart Than None at All," "Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Beauty," "The Moral High Ground Is Built on Compassion," "Arms Are For Hugging," "Will Work (When the Jobs Come Back From India)," "Jesus Is a Liberal," "God Wants Spiritual Fruits, Not Religious Nuts," "The Road to Hell Is Paved With Republicans," "Republicans Are People Too -- Mean, Selfish, Greedy People" and so on. But Willett thinks Austin subverts a stereotype: "The belief that liberals care more about the poor may scratch a partisan or ideological itch, but the facts are hostile witnesses."

Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.

If many conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, Brooks, a registered independent, is, as a reviewer of his book said, a social scientist who has been mugged by data. They include these findings:

? Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

? Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

? Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

? Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

? In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

? People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

Brooks demonstrates a correlation between charitable behavior and "the values that lie beneath" liberal and conservative labels. Two influences on charitable behavior are religion and attitudes about the proper role of government.

The single biggest predictor of someone's altruism, Willett says, is religion. It increasingly correlates with conservative political affiliations because, as Brooks's book says, "the percentage of self-described Democrats who say they have 'no religion' has more than quadrupled since the early 1970s." America is largely divided between religious givers and secular nongivers, and the former are disproportionately conservative. One demonstration that religion is a strong determinant of charitable behavior is that the least charitable cohort is a relatively small one -- secular conservatives.

Reviewing Brooks's book in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, Justice Willett notes that Austin -- it voted 56 percent for Kerry while he was getting just 38 percent statewide -- is ranked by the Chronicle of Philanthropy as 48th out of America's 50 largest cities in per capita charitable giving. Brooks's data about disparities between liberals' and conservatives' charitable giving fit these facts: Democrats represent a majority of the wealthiest congressional districts, and half of America's richest households live in states where both senators are Democrats.

While conservatives tend to regard giving as a personal rather than governmental responsibility, some liberals consider private charity a retrograde phenomenon -- a poor palliative for an inadequate welfare state and a distraction from achieving adequacy by force, by increasing taxes. Ralph Nader, running for president in 2000, said: "A society that has more justice is a society that needs less charity." Brooks, however, warns: "If support for a policy that does not exist . . . substitutes for private charity, the needy are left worse off than before. It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."

In 2000, brows were furrowed in perplexity because Vice President Al Gore's charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore "gave at the office." By using public office to give other people's money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals increasingly, and conveniently, understand that word.

Link

As for my own commentary, I think the column speaks for itself just fine. But to avoid the ire of the mods, I'll just add that this merely mirrors my own experiences. I had many very liberal friends in college, and none of them volunteered at all with any of the student groups who did things like work for Habitat for Humanity, etc. Charity was the gov't's job.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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It's because the people they vote into office rape their high wages with high taxes for all the peons to live off of.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Does this include money given to churches?

Two groups that largely vote Democrat, nonreligious and Catholics, give a lot less than 20% or whatever Protestants are supposed to tithe.
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
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I would not always equate socialists with liberals, but they both appear to seek larger government to lessen personal responsibility.

This actually is fundamental socialism. You give permission for the Gov't to take $ from everyone so you don't have to give personally. I don't know of any religion which promotes the government doing things that you or your church should be doing itself.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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The whole concept of charitable giving as a percentage of income is flawed on a couple of fronts.

1. The percentage of church goers is grossly in favor of red states and their tithing is considered charitable giving
2. The average salary is grossly in favor of blue states so the percentage can be less while the total is more (1.9% of $100,000 is a lot more than 4% of $37,000)

I believe (from source quotes in the book that he uses for his argument) that the link below is one of the most prominent studies used to draw the conclusions.

http://www.independentsector.o...faithphilanthropy.html

The problem that I find that also arises with the conclusions of the studies and the article is that neither take into account the "guilt factor". I would like to see a study that also includes a question when asking the religious...."Are you made to feel guilty either by the church or other church goers when you do not give or are unable to give as much as they believe you should give?" (Or something along those lines).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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The charitable givers from both ideology's are a small percentage of each group. It also makes sense that those who are religious would give more to charity as these religious groups use charitable services to evangelize and convert.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Celebs aside, liberals are poor because they have a bad mindset which makes them not only want to see money thrown at them by gov but also is a reason they are poor, so not as much charity money available!
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

2. The average salary is grossly in favor of blue states so the percentage can be less while the total is more (1.9% of $100,000 is a lot more than 4% of $37,000)

i would argue that the 4% of 37,000 is the one giving more. Its harder financially for the poorer person to give 4% than it is for the middle class to give 1.9%.

Also from the article it says: "Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227)."
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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Do any of these studies control for cost of living? It's easier to give the extra $400 a year when you're paying $200 less per month for rent, food is less, etc.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
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are church tithing figures calculated in this? Giving to a church is not charity. If it is i want my membership dues to any and all organizations i'm in included.

Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

2. The average salary is grossly in favor of blue states so the percentage can be less while the total is more (1.9% of $100,000 is a lot more than 4% of $37,000)

i would argue that the 4% of 37,000 is the one giving more. Its harder financially for the poorer person to give 4% than it is for the middle class to give 1.9%.

Also from the article it says: "Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227)."

if anyone wants to make any sort of argument about who is more or less relatively generous you have to adjust everything to local cost of living, tax burdens, as well as what they are giving to, etc. For those who remember, blue areas are mostly urban and those areas typically have much higher costs of living.

btw this article is just a repost of a study thats been on here about 10 times.

 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
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And the OP, like JS80 and all the other kool-aid republicans, have taken these stats without actually looking into them. If you did you would see a lot of them are greatly flawed. Such as the writer asserts that ALL money given to a church is charity. Does not matter if it pays for a chairs, clothes for the preacher/pastor/etc..., party for the church, buildings, etc...
Now what about atheists who give to beggars? Nope.

Also how did he come up with who is a conservative and liberal? He just asked and what ever the person said that stuck. He has no scientific setting for whom is a liberal or conservative.

Also he measures giving based on total income not disposable income. So if you are a "liberal" in NY that makes $1000 a week but have basic bills that total $900 and gave $10 then you only gave 1% of your money to charity. But live in a rural area making $500 a week and have $300 in bills a week and gave $10 to charity then you gave 2%, or double the amount of one of those cheap liberals.


This study was just nothing more then a circle jerk by kool-aid republicans with no more sense then to believe anything Oreally or Rush spill out everyday.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Marlin1975
And the OP, like JS80 and all the other kool-aid republicans, have taken these stats without actually looking into them.

Actually, I've read several reviews of Brook's book, and will shortly be reading the book itself.

Also how did he come up with who is a conservative and liberal? He just asked and what ever the person said that stuck. He has no scientific setting for whom is a liberal or conservative.

This only demonstrates that you're merely speculating. Brooks actually asked people a series of questions eliciting their response to various statements about political philosophy. It even says that in Will's column, if you bothered to read it. For example:

People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

Brooks in no way merely allowed respondents to self-report political affiliation.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
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Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
And the OP, like JS80 and all the other kool-aid republicans, have taken these stats without actually looking into them.

Actually, I've read several reviews of Brook's book, and will shortly be reading the book itself.

Also how did he come up with who is a conservative and liberal? He just asked and what ever the person said that stuck. He has no scientific setting for whom is a liberal or conservative.

This only demonstrates that you're merely speculating. Brooks actually asked people a series of questions eliciting their response to various statements about political philosophy. It even says that in Will's column, if you bothered to read it. For example:

People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

Brooks in no way merely allowed respondents to self-report political affiliation.


Get the book look in the index under "liberal" and "...definition of". it will send you to a page that does not offer a definition but merely says that he used self-labels given by persons surveyed.

Oh and heres quote from the book as well...
"So how do liberals and conservatives compare in their charity? When it comes to giving or not giving, conservatives and liberals look a lot alike. Conservative people are a percentage point or two more likely to give money each year than liberal people, but a percentage point or so less likely to volunteer."




 
Nov 30, 2006
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Many Libs don't want to hear this...they want to hear that they're much more generous and caring than conservatives. As expected, the apologists are coming out of the woodwork to refute and rationalize. There was a thread a couple months ago regarding a study that showed marked differences in charitible giving in numerous other "nonfinancial" areas as well such as giving blood, habitat for humanity, etc. Regardless, I hope this study will reinforce to both liberals and conservatives that actions speak much louder than words.

In addition, I hope many Libs here are objective and honest enough to realize that their stereotypes of conservatives they may have fabricated (rich, greedy, selfish, war mongerers, unconcerned about the environment, don't care about poor people, etc.) is a psychological strawman (based on inaccurate perceptions rather than fact) that only serves to rationalize bigotry and hatred of those with "diverse" ideological perspectives. Extreme partisan politics is divisive and promotes an irrationality that prevents us from finding common ground and moving forward to acheive common objectives. People working together...what a concept. Yeah...I know...I'm a dreamer.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Liberals understand that society through democracy and taxation can better many address many issues than charity. They are more concerned, generally, with addressing these issues than the right wing.

I'm for the government running Medicare, not running it as a private charity. I'm for public schools, not for charity to run the schools (as a single homeowner without children, that means I want to pay the taxes for this, instead of not paying under the private system). I'm for the government leading some of the efforts to find cures for deseases, in partnership with the private sector, not leaving it up to the profit motive only.

And so on. When Bill Gates (through his father) advocates the estate tax, he's choosing to pay from his own family's money. Liberals typically are advocating to pay more themselves with the programs, not give themselves exemptions.

The article here is propaganda, misrepresenting the implications of the right giving more to private charity - which they do, and I give them fair credit.

But they do more harm by opposing where the government is more effective than they help through the charities. We know how society looks under their system - before social security, 90% of elderly in the US were in poverty, now 90% are not in poverty. LBJ's Great Society has reduced the percent of Americans in poverty by about a third ever since it was passed from the levels before.

Sorry, but this one doesn't pass the sniff test. It's typical Karl Rove-like lying to try to prevent the right, whose members are often good people but also often lied to, from noticing the problems with their side's policies, and changing to the left, by giving them a lie to believe about the left.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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These compassionate conservatives would be Democrats 50 years ago, but due to a lot of things, namely Roe v Wade and a few other cultural issues have driven these people from D to R.

My guess is that moral issues are of utmost importance to these people but the core R values of trickle down economics and so forth aren't real high on the list. So there is a strong disconnect there and this in turn causes people to vote against their own economic self interest.

Thomas Frank wrote a book that will explain everything about these statistics, it's called "What's the matter with Kansas?", go read it.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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George Will drags up old news and again tries to pass the statictically-flawed ""Generosity Index"" as a measure of charitable giving.

It has been proved time and again that people in Mississippi do not give a higher percentage of their after-tax income to charity than those god-less liberals.

It's a simple calculation. You take the number of households per state and compare it to the states' percentage share of total charitable giving. The Red States lose - - - big time.

So the Generosity Index decides, ""AHH! We will calculate our index based upon our 'share' of after-tax income"" Yippeee! Look! We give one-tenth of one percent more of our after-tax income than those god-less Libs!

Well, guess what. An enterprising group of researchers decided to look a little deeper. And those researchers found that when you look at the share of after tax income and adjust it for cost-of-living, the god-less Libs were giving a much larger percentage of their income. In some cases 40-50% - and more - than those Red Staters.

It just eats the Red Staters up. The CONdecending, holier-than-thou Red Staters turn out to be a bunch of skin-flints who think their tithing to God is the spiritual law of giving.

Sorry, guys. Come again.

25% of households with incomes above $70,000 are responsible for 70% of charitable giving - and 51.6% of ""Charitable Contributions"" came from states that went Blue in 2004.

Care to make a bet for 2008? :)
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The CONdecending, holier-than-thou Red Staters turn out to be a bunch of skin-flints who think their tithing to God is the spiritual law of giving.
Yeah...gotta hate those stingy evil bastards !!!!:roll:

 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The CONdecending, holier-than-thou Red Staters turn out to be a bunch of skin-flints who think their tithing to God is the spiritual law of giving.
Yeah...gotta hate those stingy evil bastards !!!!:roll:

Well honestly how can they say that the money they donate is going to a worthwhile cause? I know this is the case with most charities, but donating money to Benny Hinn or one of those jokers is most likely paying for more gold adornments for his throne.

There's a pastor in my town driving a Ferrari, courtesy of his "flock", yet I bet those $5 donations are being counted as "charitable."
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The CONdecending, holier-than-thou Red Staters turn out to be a bunch of skin-flints who think their tithing to God is the spiritual law of giving.
Yeah...gotta hate those stingy evil bastards !!!!:roll:

Well honestly how can they say that the money they donate is going to a worthwhile cause? I know this is the case with most charities, but donating money to Benny Hinn or one of those jokers is most likely paying for more gold adornments for his throne.

There's a pastor in my town driving a Ferrari, courtesy of his "flock", yet I bet those $5 donations are being counted as "charitable."

And the United Way caught huge flack a few years back when former head Bill Aramony was found guilty of embezzlement, fraud, etc. The American Red Cross has paid its president $175K in the past (some presidents have accepted less). What's your point? I agree that it's a farce when various Christian leaders live the good life based on charitable donations (wasn't Jesus supposed to be poor his whole life?), but then many secular charities are the same. You should see some of the grandious headquarters of some big national non-profits here in Washington. On the other hand, everyday leaving work I see the homeless line up for a daily meal passed out by the Missionaries of Charity (Mother Theresa's order). Not every dime given to a religious institution goes to pay for Ferraris. The nuns drive a beat-up old van.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The CONdecending, holier-than-thou Red Staters turn out to be a bunch of skin-flints who think their tithing to God is the spiritual law of giving.
Yeah...gotta hate those stingy evil bastards !!!!:roll:

Well honestly how can they say that the money they donate is going to a worthwhile cause? I know this is the case with most charities, but donating money to Benny Hinn or one of those jokers is most likely paying for more gold adornments for his throne.

There's a pastor in my town driving a Ferrari, courtesy of his "flock", yet I bet those $5 donations are being counted as "charitable."
I know it's shocking...but I think the Spanish Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials were funded by "charitable" donations !!!! <---sarcasm for those with broken meters

Seriously, do you actually think this is all about donating money to "Benny Hinn or one of those jokers"? Maybe you should look a tad deeper into the subject of Church charities and reevaluate your perspective. I'm sure you'll be able to find one or two examples out of the thousands and thousands of Church charities that don't pass muster. The question is this...is the glass 99% full or is it 1% empty? Do you really care about helping people or do you want to throw the baby out with the bath water?

 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Actually a lot more of church donations go to the poor, compared to how wasteful the US Government is. Many churches have learned to stretch church donations further. As a whole during Katrina it was the churches in large part which helped the poor a lot more than government agencies.

Imagine a concept like this. A church program where people Abstain from eating 2 meals and then they donate the money they would have spent on food and donate it to a program set up just to feed, house and take care of the poor. By going without 2 meals in a row the people learn what it means to be hungry and this motivates them to be more willing to help the poor, volunteer for service projects, and help when times are tough. This is all on top of a 10% of Gross Tithing. The people that receive this money are often friends and neighbors down on their luck. Maybe they dont have enough money for that house payment or they need a little money fo pay for medicine or fix the car so they can keep working. These are the people that the government may not be helping, that would fall through the cracks. With just a little help people can feel like they have hope for the future, but without it maybe their house will be foreclosed, their car repossessed or the people themselves may become indigent or criminals. With love and comapssion we can help people and foster a hope for a brighter tomorrow.

Do you think that the government will be there when you need help?
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Does this include money given to churches?

Two groups that largely vote Democrat, nonreligious and Catholics, give a lot less than 20% or whatever Protestants are supposed to tithe.

20%? Good GOD!!! is that what you give? Is that really the average?

No wonder this nation can't save a dime and is ill prepared at old age for retirement!

Shit, if they gave that 20% to themselves for retirement they would be in GREAT shape!

I don't give jack / Nadda / Zero to the filthy church.... I do however give about 5% of my earnings to the human society... I don't just write them a check, I buy dog/cat food and volunteer .... I want to know where my $$ is going... Not just into someones plate....