Graphics Card upgrade?

[MattXS]

I have an i5-3570k (not overclocked) and 7850 2GB (mildly overclocked) plus 8 Gigs memory on Windows 7. I exclusively play Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) at 1080p typically with custom graphics setting from the High preset. When I play solo, 3 man, and 6 man content it usually is fine, but with 12+ man raids and in the moors (12-48+ characters on the screen at the time) performance really suffers. LOTRO doesn't have saveable custom presets for graphics, so it is a pain to switch settings from solo/small groups to raids everytime. I am curious what graphics cards I should be looking at, that wouldn't be hampered by my processor.

 

[EXCellR8]

budget?

I would start by looking at some of the mainstream 4GB cards, as there are plenty to choose from.

as a side note, i have the same processor in one of my machines and it handles newer games just fine, and that's with a GTX 690. I wouldn't worry too much about bottleneck but a GTX 970 or R9 380X would be a nice upgrade

 

[NTMBK]

If you want to buy now, a 4GB 380X. If you want to hang on 6 months, 14nm GPUs will be here.

 

[MattXS]

No specific budget, but I guess as cheap as possible. I am open to used parts as well. I was looking at this chart http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gpu-hierarchy,4388.html and thinking something 3 sections above mine, which would be 590/680/770 or 6990/7970/R9 280X/R9 380 or higher. I don't know if LOTRO shows a bias towards Nvidia or AMD. The moors 48+ situation may not work well on any set up (may be server side issues, but they just upgraded servers so here's for hoping!).

 

[Seba]

When I play solo, 3 man, and 6 man content it usually is fine, but with 12+ man raids and in the moors (12-48+ characters on the screen at the time) performance really suffers. LOTRO doesn't have saveable custom presets for graphics, so it is a pain to switch settings from solo/small groups to raids everytime.

Does this mean that with reduced graphics settings the performance improves in areas with many characters? Did you test this?

 

[EXCellR8]

I'm kind of wondering (if possible) what a second 7850 would do as far as performance goes. Those cards are pretty cheap and would probably tie you over until new GPUs arrive.

 

[MattXS]

Yes, performance does improve with reduced settings in areas with large amounts of people. A big part of the problem is that it isn't easy to switch from two preset graphics settings in game because there are numerous sub settings that need to get changed also. I am hoping to get a card that I can use at the High (Very High?/Ultra? forget names exactly) in all scenarios and avoid switching settings all together. Currently I have to go to Medium or Low preset with only object draw distance maxed for the graphics to not be choppy in large group moors situations.

 

[Seba]

Then a better graphics card will improve the situation.

Problem is that R9 380 or even a R9 380X will not be a spectacular upgrade from your HD 7850.

You could go for the more expensive R9 390 or GTX 970. But then, the new generation of graphics card may be here in this summer and may render your relatively expensive card obsolete very soon after purchase.

 

[MattXS]

I'm kind of wondering (if possible) what a second 7850 would do as far as performance goes. Those cards are pretty cheap and would probably tie you over until new GPUs arrive.

I wouldn't mind giving this a try, I just don't know how well LOTRO does with Crossfire. I am pretty sure my Corsair CX600 can handle both the 3570k and 2x7850's.

 

[Charlie98]

You could go for the more expensive R9 390 or GTX 970. But then, the new generation of graphics card may be here in this summer and may render your relatively expensive card obsolete very soon after purchase.

I don't understand the logic of that statement... following it, that means not only is his current GPU hopelessly obsolete (even though he is still working it...) so is his 3570K???

OP, if you are looking to upgrade now, and you have the funds, do it. I wouldn't get cheap... a GTX970 or R9 380 would be a reasonable upgrade that would last a few years. Yes, new tech is hitting the shelves in a few months, but there is unlikely to be anything that would make a significant difference (comparing apples to apples) in what you are playing now. Also consider when the new GPUs come out, you probably won't be finding any bargains like you can with current tech.

I've got a GTX970, I think the newest title I play is BF4... it does very well, even coupled with my 'obsolete' 2500K, and I fully expect it to last at least 2 more years (when an entire platform update will probably be warranted.)

 

[Seba]

I don't understand the logic of that statement... following it, that means not only is his current GPU hopelessly obsolete (even though he is still working it...) so is his 3570K???

By "obsolete" I meant to say that the new generation of graphics cards will offer either the same performance at much lower cost (much lower cost than GTX 970 or R9 390 at today's prices), or much more performance at the same cost. If the expected big jump in performance will materialize.

 

[Leyawiin]

If the performance is dropping the more players they are on the scene you might want to do a test and overclock your i5 as much as you can to see if it helps performance in a situation like that. LotRO is not terribly demanding graphics-wise and an HD 7850 2GB overclocked should be able to handle anything it throws at you @ 1080p. I have an i7-4790k and a GTX 970 and it still drops into the 40s around Bree jail and city hall. The game is just poorly coded and when there are lots of NPCs and PCs running around it can slow down.

 

[MattXS]

If the performance is dropping the more players they are on the scene you might want to do a test and overclock your i5 as much as you can to see if it helps performance in a situation like that. LotRO is not terribly demanding graphics-wise and an HD 7850 2GB overclocked should be able to handle anything it throws at you @ 1080p. I have an i7-4790k and a GTX 970 and it still drops into the 40s around Bree jail and city hall. The game is just poorly coded and when there are lots of NPCs and PCs running around it can slow down.

From your response I am guessing that I am kind of doomed no matter what, due to LotRO or their servers performing poorly. What settings/resolution are you at when you are dropping to 40's? The easiest solution would be if they would just add the ability to save different custom graphics settings based on your group size and what content you are in.

The 7850's I see for sale are almost as expensive as a 380, so I am considering that option.

 

[Leyawiin]

Well, I have used the same 1920x1200 monitor with a number of PC builds and LotRO over the years. There is no difference in FPS for me with my current i7 4790k and a GTX 970 than there was with a Phenom II X4 980 BE and a GTX 670 in 2012. As with many MMOs once you hit the sweet spot throwing more GPU horsepower at it doesn't seem to help much.

 

[MrTeal]

By "obsolete" I meant to say that the new generation of graphics cards will offer either the same performance at much lower cost (much lower cost than GTX 970 or R9 390 at today's prices), or much more performance at the same cost. If the expected big jump in performance will materialize.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. At the last node transition AMD effectively replaced the 6970 with the 7870. The 6970 launched at $370 but by the time Southern Islands launched you could pick them up a decent bit less after rebate. The 7870 was $350 at launch, and only performed a bit better. Sure it consumed a lot less power, but there definitely wasn't the same performance at much lower cost.

To wit, this is TPU's Perf/$ chart from when Southern Islands finished launching.

GCN has obviously aged better than VLIW4/5 in DX11 titles, but at launch time you got more performance, better power consumption, and not really much different performance per dollar.

Maybe with this generation we'll get lucky, but if little Polaris ends up providing performance in the 960 range, I would be surprised to see it selling that much below what a 960 costs now. We might end up with a card that trades blows with a 960 or is a little faster, for 950 prices.

 

[MattXS]

Well, I have used the same 1920x1200 monitor with a number of PC builds and LotRO over the years. There is no difference in FPS for me with my current i7 4790k and a GTX 970 than there was with a Phenom II X4 980 BE and a GTX 670 in 2012. As with many MMOs once you hit the sweet spot throwing more GPU horsepower at it doesn't seem to help much.

I guess I meant with my question what graphics preset (or if custom what is your custom closest to) do you use?

Side question: Do you play a character named Leyawiin or something similar to that on the Brandywine server? Your name sounds familiar but I don't know from where. Maybe the game forums....

 

[Emyr]

I really wouldn't buy anything until the server issues settle down, but I have been told that LOTRO doesn't play well with multiple cards and does play a tad better with NVIDIA.
As far as settings, not much will help you as much as you'd think in the moors, as you have to sync to everyone else in the area. However, if you really want to not have your toon die more than necessary, I'd suggest dropping the general game graphics setting to ultra low and then turning object draw distance to ultra high. Turn player crowd quality to 0 and then inch up the texture cache as far as you can. If you have any connection issues when running up on a bunch of players or when in game at all, try setting a port value (between 9000 and 9013) in the NET area of your userpreferences.ini file in documents.
There are some other good ideas we collected for lag and whatnot in a thread I started in the Crick forums. It would also be worthwhile to make a suggestion about the setting presets in the suggestions area of the forums.

 

[MattXS]

I really wouldn't buy anything until the server issues settle down, but I have been told that LOTRO doesn't play well with multiple cards and does play a tad better with NVIDIA.
As far as settings, not much will help you as much as you'd think in the moors, as you have to sync to everyone else in the area. However, if you really want to not have your toon die more than necessary, I'd suggest dropping the general game graphics setting to ultra low and then turning object draw distance to ultra high. Turn player crowd quality to 0 and then inch up the texture cache as far as you can. If you have any connection issues when running up on a bunch of players or when in game at all, try setting a port value (between 9000 and 9013) in the NET area of your userpreferences.ini file in documents.
There are some other good ideas we collected for lag and whatnot in a thread I started in the Crick forums. It would also be worthwhile to make a suggestion about the setting presets in the suggestions area of the forums.

Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate it. I did make the preset suggestion in that area of the forums, we'll see if anything comes of it. Fortunately, I play a Guardian and I don't go to the moors much so I don't die often.

 

[lyssword]

As a rule, MMO's stress cpu more than gpu's (honestly lotr doesnt seem to have cutting edge graphics). Either overclock that beast to at least 4.5ghz or get new 6600k or something, paired with nice memory. Also, like others said, if you upgrade, you want something that will b twice as powerful in gfx cards, like 970/390, not 280.

 

[Shmee]

As a rule, MMO's stress cpu more than gpu's (honestly lotr doesnt seem to have cutting edge graphics). Either overclock that beast to at least 4.5ghz or get new 6600k or something, paired with nice memory. Also, like others said, if you upgrade, you want something that will b twice as powerful in gfx cards, like 970/390, not 280.

I agree with this, OC that CPU, and consider 970/390 or a used 290.

 

[MattXS]

I agree with this, OC that CPU, and consider 970/390 or a used 290.

I've custom built pc's before no problem, but I haven't dabbled with overclocking or non-stock hsf's. Is there a decent/accurate guide for first timers? I have a Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD3H with the stock hsf on the 3570k. I think I'll try the cpu overclock route for now, and will get a better hsf, something like a hyper 212. Much cheaper than a new video card or second 7850.

 

[Charlie98]

A 212 Evo or similar will get you where you need to go with your i5. OC isn't as scary as some make it to be, and your Gigabyte board is pretty simple in that respect. Do not use any utility (like Gigabyte's) to OC your chip, use manual settings in the BIOS.

 

[MattXS]

A 212 Evo or similar will get you where you need to go with your i5. OC isn't as scary as some make it to be, and your Gigabyte board is pretty simple in that respect. Do not use any utility (like Gigabyte's) to OC your chip, use manual settings in the BIOS.

I'm more worried about screwing up the thermal paste and HSF mounting. What steps would you suggest with the BIOS settings? 100mhz increments and prime 95 or some other utility while watching thermals? Is there an easy way to load two different settings in BIOS (say stock and overclocked) or just get a safe overclock and run with it 100% of the time?

 

[Seba]

First try to overclock the CPU with your current cooler and see if there are improvements in your game. You will not be able to overclock as much as with an aftermarket cooler and you will have higher CPU temperatures, but you should have an idea if it is worth to buy an aftermarket cooler (while keeping your current HD 7850).

Since you said that the performance improves when you lower the graphics settings, a CPU overclock may not help much.

 

[Charlie98]

I'm more worried about screwing up the thermal paste and HSF mounting. What steps would you suggest with the BIOS settings? 100mhz increments and prime 95 or some other utility while watching thermals? Is there an easy way to load two different settings in BIOS (say stock and overclocked) or just get a safe overclock and run with it 100% of the time?

There are plenty of posts on TIM and HSF mounting... it's quite simple. If memory serves, the 212 comes with decent paste.

Heat will be the deciding factor, most likely. In my case, I actually undervolted my CPU (on my DESK in sig below) to keep the heat in check, meanwhile still getting a decent OC. I would start at 4.0GHz and stock voltage, do not pump up the BCLK. Reverting back to stock BIOS is as easy as clicking 'reset to default settings' (or some such wording) in the BIOS menu if you get into trouble, but, for example, my business desktop runs that 4.1GHz OC very well, and has for over 4 years... no need to juggle 2 different BIOS settings. Just remember, you don't have to get stupid with an OC, just find your CPU's happy place, test it and verify it's stable, and roll with it.