GPU Pricing: wtf?

[VERTIGGO]

Originally posted by: yacoub
1600x1200 or 1680x1050 with AA and AF at playable FPS in modern games, which is an average expectation in 2007.

Dude, that's still not midrange! However it does suck how fast the flagships are inflating.

But it's a dynamic market is it not? Electronics are a unique market where performance of an item can double in a year. Imagine if cars could get twice the mileage with every years release! Sounds ridiculous, but I think that's one reason computer prices can rise so quickly and people still buy them.

 

[dreddfunk]

apoppin - I am certainly not simply repeating what you've said. I'm agreeing with parts of what you've said and I'm adding a few things. Honestly, you don't seem to care about understanding my additions, but would rather emphasize that, whatever points you think I've made, you've already made them. I may have something to add to the conversation, if you care to listen.

You're confused as to why I would repeat what you've said. That should be your first clue that I don't believe that I'm only repeating you. You haven't taken your own confusion as a clue and begun to ask questions, however. Why is that? It certainly seems to me that the likely cause is that you really aren't interested in what I have to say. You are interested in what you have to say, and you are interested when people repeat and agree with what you say. That explains why you only 'hear' the parts of my statement where I agree with you, and don't seem to 'hear' those differences or additions I have.

Do you want to understand what I am trying to contribute or not? If not, I'm fine and we'll just move one. If so, we should actually try and spend some time understanding one another.

Ask me some questions about what additions I'm trying to make, maybe? I thought I was clear, but clearly I was not.

The ball is in your court, but I've got to go over to a friend's house for a while, so PM me and we'll respond to each other outside of this thread.

Cheers.

 

[imported_Equinox]

Why aren't either of them (ATI or NVidia) putting out cards that are at $200 price points and with good performance? With ATI, I think they tried with the 2600XT GDDR4 but the performance plain isn't there. They can't put out a part that they haven't made. NVidia had *plenty* of time and opportunity to release a decent midrange $200 part - but why do it? Lack of a good $200 part caused people to have to pay more for the higher end parts. I don't buy that "they cost too much to make". They had no competition, and therefore they decided to charge as much as they could. It may come back to haunt them though - many that spent $300 and $400 that they didn't really want to spend will be holding on to their cards through the next release. I know I will be. $400 for a Geforce GTS 640 was a large chunk of change, and I won't be upgrading just because something new comes out.

 

[yacoub]

Originally posted by: apoppin

then - if your 7900 is "fine" -- WHY are you complaining?

Obviously because there are new games coming out very soon that will require more horsepower. I'm sorry you have difficulty following such a simple line of thought. It's also DX9 hardware and lacks HDMI compatibility (just to offer additional reasons why someone might want to upgrade even if it plays current games alright).

And just because something weighs a lot doesn't really impress me of its value in computer hardware, especially given that smaller and more efficient is the constant focus in this industry. Something that's heavy, hot, and loud really contradicts that.

dredd: apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk
apoppin - I am certainly not simply repeating what you've said. I'm agreeing with parts of what you've said and I'm adding a few things. Honestly, you don't seem to care about understanding my additions, but would rather emphasize that, whatever points you think I've made, you've already made them. I may have something to add to the conversation, if you care to listen.

You're confused as to why I would repeat what you've said. That should be your first clue that I don't believe that I'm only repeating you. You haven't taken your own confusion as a clue and begun to ask questions, however. Why is that? It certainly seems to me that the likely cause is that you really aren't interested in what I have to say. You are interested in what you have to say, and you are interested when people repeat and agree with what you say. That explains why you only 'hear' the parts of my statement where I agree with you, and don't seem to 'hear' those differences or additions I have.

Do you want to understand what I am trying to contribute or not? If not, I'm fine and we'll just move one. If so, we should actually try and spend some time understanding one another.

Ask me some questions about what additions I'm trying to make, maybe? I thought I was clear, but clearly I was not.

The ball is in your court, but I've got to go over to a friend's house for a while, so PM me and we'll respond to each other outside of this thread.

Cheers.

please do what you do best
-and analyze it under a microscope if you wish

i'm up for it ... i believe i was neither confused nor rude .. and perhaps you didn't understand my comments originally ... i am willing to give you the benefit of any doubt
==============

Originally posted by: yacoub

Originally posted by: apoppin

then - if your 7900 is "fine" -- WHY are you complaining?

Obviously because there are new games coming out very soon that will require more horsepower. I'm sorry you have difficulty following such a simple line of thought. It's also DX9 hardware and lacks HDMI compatibility (just to offer additional reasons why someone might want to upgrade even if it plays current games alright).

And just because something weighs a lot doesn't really impress me of its value in computer hardware, especially given that smaller and more efficient is the constant focus in this industry. Something that's heavy, hot, and loud really contradicts that.

dredd: apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

strange ... i could say exactly the same thing about you ... clearly you didn't "get" my comments

however, i am far too mature - now - to suggest that you are an idiot for not understanding my comment as i respect the forum rules about "goading" other forum members into a rude response

if you want to discuss it, that is fine - i will be glad to CLARIFY my comments ... Iotoh, if you just want to flame anyone, that is another matter
-you might have noticed that Video forum is getting moderation

 

[coloumb]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
People seem to forget that the cost of current video cards are MUCh higher than it sue to be. Back in the days, 128mb was the norm where the PCB wasn't as complex and cooling was done away with a simple heatsink and a small 40~60mm fan.

Nowadays, we are lookign at 512mb worth of ram on board, PCbs to accompany 256bit/384 and now 512bit bus, dual slot heat pipe cooling systems, and to top that off GPUs that house 700 million transistors.

This is only the small part of the whole picture.

People dont realise that the 8800GTS 320mb is something nVIDIA wouldn't do because the margins on the 640nmb model was bad enough, the 320mb makes that a whole lot worse. This is why ATi has failed to compete with nVIDIA at an economic level. Sure for us its good but selling R580s so cheap how do you expect them to earn any profit at all?

Im barely describing the whole picture, but you get what i mean. It has nothing to do with colluding or price fixing. Sure there could be some, but to me prices only drops if they want to clear inventory, or the margins dont get a sever shaft, or competition between retailers, or if the company desperate.

I mean why does the GTS has to come down in price anyway? Part of the blame also can go toward ATi for providing such a lackluster product in YEARS. yes i mean Years.

Demand? supply? these are all part of the picture but you get my point. 😉

If working [in the fab] at Intel proves anything, It really doesn't cost much more to produce the current "next gen" cards when compared to the previous generation. Most of it is "this is new - so we'll charge more" - that's how it's been from day 1. They are probably using the same process tools/300mm wafers which means relatively little added cost per gpu.

I would expect the cost of the latest "next gen" cards to drop around Nov/Dec timeframe - just in time for Xmas 🙂

 

[dreddfunk]

apoppin - I need analyze nothing under a microscope. It is patently obvious that you simply were not making any effort to understand what I had to say--and still aren't. Not to mention that you are clearly demonstrating no interest in what yacoub has to say.

Discussing this matter with you is fruitless because, frankly, you are not making an effort. You aren't interested at all in what others here have to say, you are only interested in what you have to say.

I'll point to only two things among many.

#1 - You call out yacoub for skirting the new line on 'baiting' people into poor behavior, and still you see no implied insult in the following statements of yours: "however, i am far too mature - now - to suggest that you are an idiot for not understanding my comment as i respect the forum rules about "goading" other forum members into a rude response" You have essentially called yacoub immature, a child. Is that not being rude?

#2 - When responding to yacoub, you still only show a preference for clarifying *your* position, and no interest in discussing his: "if you want to discuss it, that is fine - i will be glad to CLARIFY my comments" Not a single question has graced your last few posts regarding what yacoub's complaints are and why he has them. You've decided that you understand his complaints well enough to judge them, even when he clearly believes his points have not been addressed. Instead of attempting to understand him, you simply accuse him of failing to understand you. You tell me: is that attitude going to help or hinder the discussion at hand?

apoppin - at this stage you are only interested in a one-way conversation, from you to yacoub (or from you to me). You have no questions about our thoughts, only the willingness to reiterate your thoughts. That isn't a discussion; that is a lecture.

I do have a number of questions for you, on the other hand:

1) Do you think it is justified to 'complain' when you have a 'fine' current situation? You seem to chastise yacoub for doing so, "if your 7900 is "fine" -- WHY are you complaining?" I indicated that this is a situation that is common on AT boards, since they are inhabited by enthusiasts, and I have no problem with it. Do you, and if so, why? I would suggest that you consider your response carefully here, as you may have skirted this line of complaining about 'fine' performance yourself.

2) Do you think the only factor in the lack of current competition is the 'lateness' of the 2900? You say, "i said "lateness" is the reason for lack of competition and hence no "normally" dropping prices," and accuse me of simply reiterating this point. That my statement was a simple reiteration of your point is patently false. I indicated that both lateness *and the inability of the 2900 to set a new price/performance standard* were at the heart of the stable GTS/GTX prices. These are my relevant words: "Though it competes well with the GTS 640, it certainly doesn't seem to leave it in the dust, which means that the prices the GTS and GTX stabilized at, pre-2900, were born out to be good prices, post-2900." How is this merely a reiteration of what you've said? Again, you seem to be only interested in my comments in so far as they echo your own?

3) Do you think that your purchase of a 2900xt at $320 (which we all agree is 'lucky') has any relevance to yacoub's complaint that no sub-$300 DX10 cards have 512MB of memory or more, even when this level of memory was easily available in the $200-300 price point on previous generations? We understand that you got a good deal, we were merely stating its irrelevance to the issue of the dearth of $200-300 cards with sufficient video RAM to game at higher resolutions.

If you want to actually have a discussion, wherein you are interested in what others actually have to say, just let me know. I remain very interested in what you have to say. I have lost faith, however, that you are in any way interested in what I have to say.

I won't respond any further to this thread; it has outlived it's usefulness to do so. I will accept whatever answer you give to my questions and move on. Still, I again invite you to PM me if you wish.

Cheers.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: coloumb

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
People seem to forget that the cost of current video cards are MUCh higher than it sue to be. Back in the days, 128mb was the norm where the PCB wasn't as complex and cooling was done away with a simple heatsink and a small 40~60mm fan.

Nowadays, we are lookign at 512mb worth of ram on board, PCbs to accompany 256bit/384 and now 512bit bus, dual slot heat pipe cooling systems, and to top that off GPUs that house 700 million transistors.

This is only the small part of the whole picture.

People dont realise that the 8800GTS 320mb is something nVIDIA wouldn't do because the margins on the 640nmb model was bad enough, the 320mb makes that a whole lot worse. This is why ATi has failed to compete with nVIDIA at an economic level. Sure for us its good but selling R580s so cheap how do you expect them to earn any profit at all?

Im barely describing the whole picture, but you get what i mean. It has nothing to do with colluding or price fixing. Sure there could be some, but to me prices only drops if they want to clear inventory, or the margins dont get a sever shaft, or competition between retailers, or if the company desperate.

I mean why does the GTS has to come down in price anyway? Part of the blame also can go toward ATi for providing such a lackluster product in YEARS. yes i mean Years.

Demand? supply? these are all part of the picture but you get my point. 😉

If working [in the fab] at Intel proves anything, It really doesn't cost much more to produce the current "next gen" cards when compared to the previous generation. Most of it is "this is new - so we'll charge more" - that's how it's been from day 1. They are probably using the same process tools/300mm wafers which means relatively little added cost per gpu.

I would expect the cost of the latest "next gen" cards to drop around Nov/Dec timeframe - just in time for Xmas 🙂

The thing is that when it comes to process "know hows" and technological advancement in that area, intel is ahead of the rest of the world. Weren't they already working on 32nm process?

Look at nVIDIA. They are fabless. Im not sure how intel works but im thinknig that nVIDIA is abit different when it comes to manufacturering their next gen products. Note that TMSC makes all their chips. (well some at UMC too)

Intel chips are currently at 65nm packed with 300 million transistors, and are 143 mm^2 terms of die size. How many do you think intel can produce core 2 duos per wafer?

Compare that to 90nm G80s, with 700 million transistors, plus the die size of the G80 with is roughly 484mm². How many G80s could they make per wafer? how about the added cost of NVIO chip and a 12inch long PCB board accompanying 384bit memory interface?

btw PM sent for something.. 🙂

 

[apoppin]

apoppin - I need analyze nothing under a microscope. It is patently obvious that you simply were not making any effort to understand what I had to say--and still aren't. Not to mention that you are clearly demonstrating no interest in what yacoub has to say.

how can you dare to say this when i am carefully reading your post right now? ... and i re-read our exchange several times

Discussing this matter with you is fruitless because, frankly, you are not making an effort. You aren't interested at all in what others here have to say, you are only interested in what you have to say.

again the 2nd time you said the same thing - "not making an effort" ... quite an accusation ... one that i made against you long ago; i AM clearly making an effort so don't "cop out" with a weak excuse

I'll point to only two things among many.

#1 - You call out yacoub for skirting the new line on 'baiting' people into poor behavior, and still you see no implied insult in the following statements of yours: "however, i am far too mature - now - to suggest that you are an idiot for not understanding my comment as i respect the forum rules about "goading" other forum members into a rude response" You have essentially called yacoub immature, a child. Is that not being rude?

absolutely not ... that is what i used to say and what i would have replied before to his rudeness: I'm sorry you have difficulty following such a simple line of thought and apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us. Do you not find his comments provocative and totally rude?

PLEASE - *show me* what i did to deserve that comment by yacoub

#2 - When responding to yacoub, you still only show a preference for clarifying *your* position, and no interest in discussing his: "if you want to discuss it, that is fine - i will be glad to CLARIFY my comments" Not a single question has graced your last few posts regarding what yacoub's complaints are and why he has them. You've decided that you understand his complaints well enough to judge them, even when he clearly believes his points have not been addressed. Instead of attempting to understand him, you simply accuse him of failing to understand you. You tell me: is that attitude going to help or hinder the discussion at hand?

i don't know - out of the blue, yacoub says:I'm sorry you have difficulty following such a simple line of thought. and apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us. How would you respond? with love and kisses? -that is when my "tone" changed.

apoppin - at this stage you are only interested in a one-way conversation, from you to yacoub (or from you to me). You have no questions about our thoughts, only the willingness to reiterate your thoughts. That isn't a discussion; that is a lecture.

Yes, you are correct, it WAS a lecture - i.e. do not insult anyone by saying: I'm sorry you have difficulty following such a simple line of thought. and apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

I do have a number of questions for you, on the other hand:

1) Do you think it is justified to 'complain' when you have a 'fine' current situation? You seem to chastise yacoub for doing so, "if your 7900 is "fine" -- WHY are you complaining?" I indicated that this is a situation that is common on AT boards, since they are inhabited by enthusiasts, and I have no problem with it. Do you, and if so, why? I would suggest that you consider your response carefully here, as you may have skirted this line of complaining about 'fine' performance yourself.

Because he brought it up and opened himself to me pointing out inconsistencies in his reasoning

2) Do you think the only factor in the lack of current competition is the 'lateness' of the 2900? You say, "i said "lateness" is the reason for lack of competition and hence no "normally" dropping prices," and accuse me of simply reiterating this point. That my statement was a simple reiteration of your point is patently false. I indicated that both lateness *and the inability of the 2900 to set a new price/performance standard* were at the heart of the stable GTS/GTX prices. These are my relevant words: "Though it competes well with the GTS 640, it certainly doesn't seem to leave it in the dust, which means that the prices the GTS and GTX stabilized at, pre-2900, were born out to be good prices, post-2900." How is this merely a reiteration of what you've said? Again, you seem to be only interested in my comments in so far as they echo your own.

the *only* factor ? - No!, i didn't say that ... i said, lateness was the main factor the one that precipitated this strange market situation with prices holding longer than usual. Of course, i am stressing my OWN point ... that is what YOU do ... i don't care to argue your point or yacoubs for him

3) Do you think that your purchase of a 2900xt at $320 (which we all agree is 'lucky') has any relevance to yacoub's complaint that no sub-$300 DX10 cards have 512MB of memory or more, even when this level of memory was easily available in the $200-300 price point on previous generations? We understand that you got a good deal, we were merely stating its irrelevance to the issue of the dearth of $200-300 cards with sufficient video RAM to game at higher resolutions.

Absolutely. i pointed out that there were several sales including a GTS 8800-640 at $316 from Buy.com that i missed

If you want to actually have a discussion, wherein you are interested in what others actually have to say, just let me know. I remain very interested in what you have to say. I have lost faith, however, that you are in any way interested in what I have to say.

I won't respond any further to this thread; it has outlived it's usefulness to do so. I will accept whatever answer you give to my questions and move on. Still, I again invite you to PM me if you wish.

Cheers.

you may choose not to respond and i do not feel as you do about this thread or that i am not interested in your PoV ... CLEARLY i am and i am sorry if my posts gave the impression otherwise as such was not my intention

FINALLY i am SO sorry that i replied by EDITING your post ... that was an ACCIDENT - blame my newness with the mod tools - i had intended "quote" instead of "edit" 😱

-apoppin

i will try to fix your post 😛
edit: got it, i think

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: apoppin in response to dreddfunk

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

You have essentially called yacoub immature, a child. Is that not being rude?

absolutely not ... that is what i used to say and what i would have replied before to his [yacoub's] rudeness:

I'm sorry you [apoppin] have difficulty following such a simple line of thought.

dredd - apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

Do you not find his comments provocative and totally rude?

Highlighted is what I believe dreddfunk is talking about. You did say a returning insult. It's just that it was under the guise of:

Originally posted by: apoppin

...i am far too mature - now - to suggest that you are an idiot for not understanding my comment...

You still called him an "idiot", it's just that you proclaim you would have done so more openly in the past.

At least, that is how I am reading it. Perhaps I've just lost touch with your logic in my absence here. Dreddfunk, sorry if I misinterpreted you.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Originally posted by: apoppin in response to dreddfunk

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

You have essentially called yacoub immature, a child. Is that not being rude?

absolutely not ... <<<<<<<<<<<<that is what i used to say and what i would have replied before to his [yacoub's] rudeness:

I'm sorry you [apoppin] have difficulty following such a simple line of thought.

dredd - apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

Do you not find his comments provocative and totally rude?

Highlighted is what I believe dreddfunk is talking about. You did say a returning insult. It's just that it was under the guise of:

Originally posted by: apoppin

...i am far too mature - now - to suggest that you are an idiot for not understanding my comment...

You still called him an "idiot", it's just that you proclaim you would have done so more openly in the past.

At least, that is how I am reading it. Perhaps I've just lost touch with your logic in my absence here. Dreddfunk, sorry if I misinterpreted you.

that is true - you are not reading it wrong; nor am i denying it ... i was very polite until yacoub told me that i am too stupid to understand his line of thought and that i am incapable of comprehension and that i should be ignored ... in the past i would have been much ruder ... this time - if you notice - i did NOT actually call him an "idiot" for not understanding my comment although the implication was definitely and deliberately left in. ReRead my comment as a personal "response" to a "Moderator bait" 😉

instead, i should have simply given him a vacation for his original rude comment as i am well within the guidelines for doing so and i should have made no comment back to him.
-what do you think, better just 'vacation' next time?
--no worries, i am learning

and let me try again ... what yacoub first posted without provocation:

I'm sorry you [apoppin] have difficulty following such a simple line of thought.

dredd - apoppin has never really had much luck with reading comprehension. just learn to ignore most of what he writes like the rest of us.

Do you not find his comments provocative and totally rude? --it falls under "moderator baiting" and it has been expanded on by the administration. it won't be tolerated.

EDIT: now enough of this 'personal' crap. Consider it a "discussion" that is now closed HERE. IF you want to post further about 'mod issues' - Forum Personal Issues is the place - NOT here. i will be glad to discuss it THERE. We will get back to discussing this topic. "GPU Pricing: wtf?"

--Graphics Moderator apoppin

edited

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

FINALLY i am SO sorry that i replied by EDITING your post ... that was an ACCIDENT - blame my newness with the mod tools - i had intended "quote" instead of "edit" 😱

-apoppin

i will try to fix your post 😛
edit: got it, i think

LOL, I am so glad I am not a moderator. I can just imagine the trouble I'd be getting into.

I'd accidentally hit the wrong button, leave the forum alone for two days, and BAM! 40 people would be screaming abuse of power and then off with 'is head!... :laughing;

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: apoppin

FINALLY i am SO sorry that i replied by EDITING your post ... that was an ACCIDENT - blame my newness with the mod tools - i had intended "quote" instead of "edit" 😱

-apoppin

i will try to fix your post 😛
edit: got it, i think

LOL, I am so glad I am not a moderator. I can just imagine the trouble I'd be getting into.

I'd accidentally hit the wrong button, leave the forum alone for two days, and BAM! 40 people would be screaming abuse of power and then off with 'is head!... :laughing;

i got your PM also ... thank-you very much.

this is a "transition" time for Video and i am sure it is as difficult for me as it is painful for you to adjust to each other in a new way. i am NOT going to be heavy on the "ban stick" ... certainly not now unless it is pretty extreme behavior.

i stated what i could do and should do - and will even have to do ... in the future. We are all going to have to adjust a little. i never believed video was "broken"; rather that it needs more politeness - even if not genuine respect for each other.

and please ... no more OT here ... let's get back to the discussion:
GPU Pricing: wtf?


since i am personally involved in this thread and ended up needing to moderate it, i will drop out of it if you like. And IF you like me OUT of it, please don't respond to my points or to me by name anymore.

Graphics Moderator apoppin

 

[Peter]

Well ... there's a simple answer to all of these "why is this stuff so expensive?" type questions:

Because enough people are paying those prices.

 

[sliderule]

Originally posted by: GEOrifle
Yes, that's CHEAPEST CHINESE STUFF, thise $300 cards cost just $30 for MF, left over
goes in pocket who's financing them: US FINANCIAL CORPORATIONS, you know they decided to move all jobs oversea for extra $$ and they got it : producing cost just couple
dozen $$. If thise kind of bussiness will continue thise $300 cards will cost very soon $400, then $500 and so on.
We need another manufacturer from diferent country to drope prices down!!!

Hmm, I don't think either company Ati or Nvidia are US companies, but it is true pretty much all of the worlds businesses are selling out to cheap Chinese labour...whether they be based in Europe, Japan, or North America. :/

My sister in law works at JC Penny, and they sell dress shirts for $40 that they literally pay 1 penny for...no joke.

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: coloumb


If working [in the fab] at Intel proves anything, It really doesn't cost much more to produce the current "next gen" cards when compared to the previous generation. Most of it is "this is new - so we'll charge more" - that's how it's been from day 1. They are probably using the same process tools/300mm wafers which means relatively little added cost per gpu.

I would expect the cost of the latest "next gen" cards to drop around Nov/Dec timeframe - just in time for Xmas 🙂

The problem with that is that you are only thinking about the GPU. A video card is a lot more like a complete computer on a card. Nvidia/ATI can only screw card manufacturers for the GPU itself. A lot of the cost of the cards is in the RAM and other components. It's probably more reasonable to get pissed at the RAM manufacturers for price fixing than Nvidia/ATI.

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: sliderule

Hmm, I don't think either company Ati or Nvidia are US companies, but it is true pretty much all of the worlds businesses are selling out to cheap Chinese labour...whether they be based in Europe, Japan, or North America. :/

nVidia is american, ATI is canadian, at least they were before they got acquired by AMD. They might be considered american now also 😕

 

[Laminator]

Originally posted by: aka1nas
The problem with that is that you are only thinking about the GPU. A video card is a lot more like a complete computer on a card. Nvidia/ATI can only screw card manufacturers for the GPU itself. A lot of the cost of the cards is in the RAM and other components. It's probably more reasonable to get pissed at the RAM manufacturers for price fixing than Nvidia/ATI.

Damn you, Foxconn! And Hynix! And Samsung! DAMN YOU AAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLL!!!11one

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: sliderule

Hmm, I don't think either company Ati or Nvidia are US companies, but it is true pretty much all of the worlds businesses are selling out to cheap Chinese labour...whether they be based in Europe, Japan, or North America. :/

nVidia is american, ATI is canadian, at least they were before they got acquired by AMD. They might be considered american now also 😕

What he said. However, it is an easy mistake to make since california is more like a different planet...

 

[lopri]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
People seem to forget that the cost of current video cards are MUCh higher than it sue to be. Back in the days, 128mb was the norm where the PCB wasn't as complex and cooling was done away with a simple heatsink and a small 40~60mm fan.

Nowadays, we are lookign at 512mb worth of ram on board, PCbs to accompany 256bit/384 and now 512bit bus, dual slot heat pipe cooling systems, and to top that off GPUs that house 700 million transistors.

This is only the small part of the whole picture.

People dont realise that the 8800GTS 320mb is something nVIDIA wouldn't do because the margins on the 640nmb model was bad enough, the 320mb makes that a whole lot worse. This is why ATi has failed to compete with nVIDIA at an economic level. Sure for us its good but selling R580s so cheap how do you expect them to earn any profit at all?

Im barely describing the whole picture, but you get what i mean. It has nothing to do with colluding or price fixing. Sure there could be some, but to me prices only drops if they want to clear inventory, or the margins dont get a sever shaft, or competition between retailers, or if the company desperate.

I mean why does the GTS has to come down in price anyway? Part of the blame also can go toward ATi for providing such a lackluster product in YEARS. yes i mean Years.

Demand? supply? these are all part of the picture but you get my point. 😉

I fail to see your point but I do see NVDA stock price going up and NV's revenue, gross margin, and market share going up.

 

[lopri]

Well, to make my point clear: NV isn't charging a *reasonable* amount for their GPUs, after carefully calculating the cost on their part. 🙂 They will charge as much they can, and they will do anything to maximize their profit for both short/long term. This isn't my saying. It's what their CEO said in their stock holders' meeting and it's what's written in the textbook. To be more accurate to what their CEO said - NV charges as much as their customers are willing to pay. (example: 8800 Ultra) And there is nothing wrong about it and actually he is probably one of the best CEOs in the whole tech industry. That's how capitalism works and according to the textbook, unfortunately, there are quite a few bad side-effects of free market, such as price fixing between duo-poly.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Simply put what i was trying to point out is that you CANNOT expect prices of current high end cards to be $300~ like along time ago in the days of the R300 and before that.

Just to point out that IHVs only sell the GPUs, where everything else is made by the graphics card manufacturers e.g custom PCB or nVIDIA/ATi reference.

 

[Munky]

The good old days of $300 high end cards are not coming back. AMD and NV will charge as much as people would pay, and unless everyone boycotts video cards costing over $300, there's no reason for the cards to drop in price.

 

[imported_Equinox]

Well, as I stated earlier, I'm personally boycotting the *next* $400 and $500 cards they put out, because after dropping $400 on my current card, I'm going to have to keep it for a while. Hopefully most of the people that paid that much will feel the same way, and they can start lowering their expectations of just what is a fair price. I certainly know that $799 for essentially an overclocked GTX wasn't a fair price. Apparently a large number of other people felt the same way because they stayed away in droves until the prices came down. GTX and GTS prices haven't come down tremendously, and the HD2900XT is still pretty much sitting above MSRP at most places.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: lopri
Well, to make my point clear: NV isn't charging a *reasonable* amount for their GPUs, after carefully calculating the cost on their part. 🙂 They will charge as much they can, and they will do anything to maximize their profit for both short/long term. This isn't my saying. It's what their CEO said in their stock holders' meeting and it's what's written in the textbook. To be more accurate to what their CEO said - NV charges as much as their customers are willing to pay. (example: 8800 Ultra) And there is nothing wrong about it and actually he is probably one of the best CEOs in the whole tech industry. That's how capitalism works and according to the textbook, unfortunately, there are quite a few bad side-effects of free market, such as price fixing between duo-poly.

This should be obvious to most people but I guess it's not. As long as you agree that a corporation should charge as much as the customer is willing to pay, then that's fine, but don't expect the card to remain stagnant in price while production cost increases, that isn't logical either.

The other side of the coin is production cost is continuing to increase, that isn't incorrect, by the way I can't really take you to your word of "by your calculations" on production cost do you have evidence to back up your claims?