GPS Backup system being mothballed

[Babbles]

Link

Washington -- Good night, Loran.

In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday afternoon will shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II.

The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats.

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup.

Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries.

GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military. . .

I think that is sorta bothersome that there will no longer be a backup to our GPS network. If I recall correctly, many of the GPS are in disintegrating orbits and I imagine if - or when - the next War to End All Wars breaks out satellites will be among the first items targeted.

I am all for the government saving money, but I think due to our reliance on technology this is a program that should probably stick around.

 

[spidey07]

Link



I think that is sorta bothersome that there will no longer be a backup to our GPS network. If I recall correctly, many of the GPS are in disintegrating orbits and I imagine if - or when - the next War to End All Wars breaks out satellites will be among the first items targeted.

I am all for the government saving money, but I think due to our reliance on technology this is a program that should probably stick around.

Yes, it should. Didn't Obama kill the next generation GPS? What's even more concerning is no backup for military GPS use - which I would HAVE to assume is in place. I don't pretend to know a lot about it.

 

[piasabird]

How will the idiot drivers know where they are going without a GPS?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Yes, it should. Didn't Obama kill the next generation GPS? What's even more concerning is no backup for military GPS use - which I would HAVE to assume is in place. I don't pretend to know a lot about it.

Most navigational military equipment does not rely solely on GPS to function. Still that's pretty concerning. What happened with the European program - I think it was called Galileo?

 

[Throckmorton]

I'm skeptical about the argument that it's a backup for GPS. How many ships and aircraft actually have Loran receivers?

BTW, I hope the knee-jerk opposition realizes this only exists in the USA.

 

[StageLeft]

Go back to those little brass things that look at the big dipper

 

[Babbles]

I'm skeptical about the argument that it's a backup for GPS. How many ships and aircraft actually have Loran receivers?

BTW, I hope the knee-jerk opposition realizes this only exists in the USA.

Knee-jerk opposition? It's a knee-jerk reaction to think that having a backup system is a good thing? Wait, I think planning for backups is the exact opposite of knee-jerk, isn't it?

Anyhow, by "only exists in the USA" you probably mean "Only exists in the USA, Russia, Canada, UK and the EU." right?

 

[PottedMeat]

Most navigational military equipment does not rely solely on GPS to function. Still that's pretty concerning. What happened with the European program - I think it was called Galileo?

i think the last time i read anything about it all the different countries/companies were fighting over who gets what portion of the cash lol.

 

[Patranus]

I'm skeptical about the argument that it's a backup for GPS. How many ships and aircraft actually have Loran receivers?

Actually most ships probably have a LORAN receiver.

 

[CallMeJoe]

What good is a backup system no one has the equipment to use? It's not as though people can switch their GPS navs over to LORAN-C mode when the satellites go down. LORAN has been obsolete for over a decade, maintained only to placate the boaters too cheap to upgrade.

 

[Patranus]

What good is a backup system no one has the equipment to use? It's not as though people can switch their GPS navs over to LORAN-C mode when the satellites go down. LORAN has been obsolete for over a decade, maintained only to placate the boaters too cheap to upgrade.

Incorrect. Most commercial vessels have both GPS and LORAN-C.
Most high end pleasure cruses as well as racing vessels also have LORAN-C and GPS.

Most people think LORAN-C is not used much because it isn't used on low end pleasure boats.

Both are actually very cheap technologies and provide different means to navigate.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Incorrect. Most commercial vessels have both GPS and LORAN-C.
Most high end pleasure cruses as well as racing vessels also have LORAN-C and GPS.
Most people think LORAN-C is not used much because it isn't used on low end pleasure boats.
Both are actually very cheap technologies and provide different means to navigate.

People think LORAN-C is dead because anyone requiring accurate navigation abandoned it in the '90s...

 

[LTC8K6]

Most airliners use INS and not GPS. The inertial system is very reliable. GPS is the backup, typically. INS does need an accurate starting position, though.

 

[dmcowen674]

Link

I think that is sorta bothersome that there will no longer be a backup to our GPS network.

Have you ever used Loran?

It's like relying on a toy walkie talkie.

 

[Cattlegod]

Isn't GPS redundant in its own right? You only need 3 for location purposes and most times you can connect to 6+. If someone is going to take out our satellites and they have the resources to take out 20+ of them to create a big enough hole, they surely would take out the loran system too.

now, regarding the issue of hacking, i'm not sure if this is even possible or what it would take - this might be the only point of contention.

 

[rudder]

I'm skeptical about the argument that it's a backup for GPS. How many ships and aircraft actually have Loran receivers?

BTW, I hope the knee-jerk opposition realizes this only exists in the USA.

Probably a lot more in ships than in airplanes. It costs a lot of money to keep it in an airplane. That would be interesting to see how many long haul aircraft have LORAN receivers on board. If I was flying across the pacific I would feel better if there was one.

Anyway, there is always the expensive inertial navigation systems... or even celestial navigation. Not a big a problem with ships as airplanes. The last airplane built where you could use a sextant was a DC-8.

 

[JTsyo]

If the system is only being mothballed and not dismantled it can still be a backup system if needed. Though I guess if it's down for a few years people will stop carrying the receivers.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Isn't GPS redundant in its own right? You only need 3 for location purposes and most times you can connect to 6+. If someone is going to take out our satellites and they have the resources to take out 20+ of them to create a big enough hole, they surely would take out the loran system too.

now, regarding the issue of hacking, i'm not sure if this is even possible or what it would take - this might be the only point of contention.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

We have trashed GPS satellites that are infinitely better than LORAN 'essentially WWII' technology. And as you note there is outstanding redundancy.

The latest GPS tech we are placing in orbit can provide multiple signals with greater accuracy, higher signal strength and multiple bands.

It wouldn't surprise me if we now have the capability to 'spoof' beams real-time in a fashion that would completely disorient our enemies GPS utilization.





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[CallMeJoe]

...It wouldn't surprise me if we now have the capability to 'spoof' beams real-time in a fashion that would completely disorient our enemies GPS utilization.--

What do you mean "If"? It's called "Selective Availability" and was turned off for civilian GPS users in 2000. The US Navy (custodians of GPS) can turn it back on and set in whatever error they see fit if it suits national security needs.

 

[Thump553]

I vaguely remember loran from flying with my father back in the sixties and early seventies. From what I recall, characterizing it as a backup system to GPS is like claiming a pencil is a backup to a personal computer.

 

[Deeko]

Link



I think that is sorta bothersome that there will no longer be a backup to our GPS network. If I recall correctly, many of the GPS are in disintegrating orbits and I imagine if - or when - the next War to End All Wars breaks out satellites will be among the first items targeted.

I am all for the government saving money, but I think due to our reliance on technology this is a program that should probably stick around.

The replacement satellites have been waiting in the wings to be launched for a very long time - the problem with GPS-II isn't that its disintigrating in orbit, its that they AREN'T, making the replacements obsolete before they're even launched.

 

[heyheybooboo]

What do you mean "If"? It's called "Selective Availability" and was turned off for civilian GPS users in 2000. The US Navy (custodians of GPS) can turn it back on and set in whatever error they see fit if it suits national security needs.

LOL

I could tell you about my NSA career but then I would have to kill yah

It only makes sense that the capability does/has existed. Think of the havoc we could reek with anything GPS related.

The replacement satellites have been waiting in the wings to be launched for a very long time - the problem with GPS-II isn't that its disintigrating in orbit, its that they AREN'T, making the replacements obsolete before they're even launched.

I think the new GPS is substantially improved over version II and that they are pretty much ready to roll ...





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[DesiPower]

OMG what will happen when PRC blows up all the satellites? we will be dead in the water... literally...

 

[Deeko]

I think the new GPS is substantially improved over version II and that they are pretty much ready to roll ...

That's what I mean - the old ones up there that the OP is opining about disintigrating weren't supposed to last as long as they have - which means their improved replacement models weren't even necessary yet.

My basic point was that saying "omgz no GPS is falling out of the sky, we need a backup" is misinformed.

 

[dainthomas]

What do you mean "If"? It's called "Selective Availability" and was turned off for civilian GPS users in 2000. The US Navy (custodians of GPS) can turn it back on and set in whatever error they see fit if it suits national security needs.

And the collective sound of every minivan/SUV in the US simultaneously running into trees and telephone poles would be truly deafening!