Government spending cuts!

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Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
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<<Just taking agriculture...I've heard the number of farmers nowaways is a mere fraction of what it was just 10 years ago. yet the Dept. of Agriculture is probably the same size it's always been. Does it need to be that large? No. Eliminate it altoghter? No. What to do then? Shrink it, eliminate inefficiencies and ferret out mismanagement. Pretty standard, really.>>

Umm what does the number of farmers have to do with regulation of agriculture. The DOA size should be based on the amount of food produced a year not the number of people that grew a carrote in there back yard.



1. agriculture department -- Umm no I would perfer that some one inspects my food
2. FCC -- Oh great idea now every radio/TV can all use the same Hz
3. HUD -- What do poor people need a house for
4. The federal food stamp block grant program -- Food why should I have to pay for the milk in the botttle of some baby
5. the national endowment for the arts -- Look at the Imac people like things that doen't just look like crap
6. the federal department of education(this is at best a local issue, not federal) -- Well of course you don't live in a poor area now do you
7. NATO membership(without a ussr, who needs NATO) -- You joking right break up the most powerfull organiztion so you can save a buck ever think of why USSR fell?
8. FAA(privatize the flight control system) -- All flights will leave at 8am and arrive at 5pm rush our in the ski great.
9. DEA(drug use laws infringe individual liberty) -- Well your right for once
10. Amtrack(if passenger service was profitable, it would be picked up by private railroads..if not, then let it die) -- Well beside the fact that taking the train is alot better for the enviroment and the tracks need to be maintiened so that there can be shipping of goods you wouldn't want on the truck next to you.


 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
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rahvin,

Your attitude is precisely why it's so difficult to cut the waste from government and eliminate failing/failed programs. You notice a critisicm of your favorate pet program, don't even bother to try to understand it, then sound the Battle Cry, &quot;Oh don't touch this, you'll wreck america!&quot; Pooey. I can only assume you're a card carrying FFA member without any objective viewpoint. Too bad for you. The Dept. of Ag. is bloated and needs to be streamlined. Also, trying reading my first post. You'll notice I said it shouldn't be eliminated altogether. Sheesh.

<< Umm what does the number of farmers have to do with regulation of agriculture. >>

rahvin, do some research. The Dept. of Ag. has county-level offices around the country. These counties are drying up of farmers so many aren't needed any more. Also, there are tons of farm subsidies out there. These do not need to be budgeted at the same levels when there are fewer family farms.

Again again for you FFA members: I'm not advocating abolishing your precious Dept. of Ag. Just trimming off that fat. :)
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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<<Your attitude is precisely why it's so difficult to cut the waste from government and eliminate failing/failed programs. You notice a critisicm of your favorate pet program, don't even bother to try to understand it, then sound the Battle Cry, &quot;Oh don't touch this, you'll wreck america!&quot; Pooey. I can only assume you're a card carrying FFA member without any objective viewpoint. Too bad for you. The Dept. of Ag. is bloated and needs to be streamlined. Also, trying reading my first post. You'll notice I said it shouldn't be eliminated altogether. Sheesh.

rahvin, do some research. The Dept. of Ag. has county-level offices around the country. These counties are drying up of farmers so many aren't needed any more. Also, there are tons of farm subsidies out there. These do not need to be budgeted at the same levels when there are fewer family farms.

Again again for you FFA members: I'm not advocating abolishing your precious Dept. of Ag. Just trimming off that fat.>>

No the USDA is not my pet department (if any department is my pet it's the DOT), I just happen to know a lot more about it than you think you do. As I stated before you don't know the FIRST thing about the USDA or what they do. I happen to know quite a bit about what the USDA does and what they try to accomplish, something you know very little about. Truth be told the USDA is actually UNDERFUNDED for their designated goals. We have less than one inspector per ~10 factories. It is frankly amazing we haven't had MORE fatalities from bad meat and processed food.

But seeing as how you are the god of information on the USDA please state the objectives of the USDA and list the programs that you don't feel are necessary in your infinate wisdom (I bet you don't even know what things like the Farm bank are). I really would like to point out your ignorance. See people like you THINK you know what the USDA and a bunch of other federal agencies do and frankly you DON'T have a clue. You have absolutely KNOW IDEA the impacts that these programs directly have on your life so you say &quot;lets cut them&quot;. That is called ignorance and it's a result of you sitting on you butt typing into a computer rather than getting an education about government and the world in general.
 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
3,211
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Hey Libertarians, I just heard that the island of Borneo has no taxes!!!!! Start packing :)
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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rahvin,

You're such a munch. :) OK, i'll try to clue you in: in the real world it's possible for a federal Department to both be underfunded in some areas and overfunded in others. Your DOA is not an Untouchable, Unaccountable repositority for tax dollars. It has areas of deficiency that need addressing just like every other Dept. Open your eyes.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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<<You're such a munch. OK, i'll try to clue you in: in the real world it's possible for a federal Department to both be underfunded in some areas and overfunded in others. Your DOA is not an Untouchable, Unaccountable repositority for tax dollars. It has areas of deficiency that need addressing just like every other Dept. Open your eyes.>>

Ok god of information, where are these overfundings in the USDA? I want a list, put up or shut up.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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rahvin,

You're not worth it.

I'll dig into it if someone else would like to know where we can trim the fat off the Dept. of Ag. Just holler and I'll have some stuff to list this weekend. :)
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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<<You're not worth it.>>

Lol, exactly the response I expected. :)

Oh and I'm not against cutting government programs we don't need but Clinton gutted USDA ten years ago along with a dozen departments to balance the budget, doesn't mean there isn't more to cut but you aren't the one to make that decision because you aren't informed enough about the needs or benefits of any of the programs to make an educated decision. Of course that won't stop you from continueing to believe that you are the king of cutting.

lol.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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rahvin,

Well Mr. USDA Is God, Throw More Money at it, take the time to read this:

<< Reduce USDA?s 2,700 county office locations by 50 percent

1-Year Savings: $500 million 5-Year Savings: $2.5 billion

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) uses county field offices to deliver a myriad of farm programs. Under the Federal Crop Insurance Reform and Department of Agriculture Reorganization Act of 1994, the Secretary of Agriculture began to streamline departmental operations by consolidating county offices (3,700 in 1994 to 2,700 in 1999). Much work has yet to be done. The number of farmers alone has dropped from 6 million in 1933 to less than 2 million today. The General Accounting Office (GAO) notes that USDA officials should study the costs and benefits of using alternative delivery methods, such as mail, telephones and computers, to deliver services to the remaining 2 million farmers. By reducing field offices by half (to 1,350) USDA should still be able to deliver services while cutting costs.

Eliminate the Export Enhancement Program (EEP)

1-Year Savings: $302 million 5-Year Savings: $2.2 billion

EEP was established in 1985 to subsidize the export of agricultural commodities. Participants in EEP negotiate directly with buyers in a targeted country and then submit bids to USDA for cash bonuses. Wheat growers have been the primary beneficiaries of EEP, which has awarded more than $7.2 billion in bonuses since its inception. Proponents claim that EEP is necessary because European wheat farmers are heavily subsidized, thereby creating an uneven playing field for U.S. wheat to be sold overseas. But this program is simply a handout to big corporations so they can dump wheat on the international market. The 1994 Uruguay Round of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which pledged to reduce both the volume of subsidized exports of agricultural products and budgetary outlays on export subsides for those products, also reduces the need for this corporate welfare giveaway.

Reform Milk Marketing Orders

1-Year Savings: $149 million 5-Year Savings: $669 million

Government intervention in the milk industry dates back to more than 60 years ago, when milk marketing orders were created to ensure an adequate supply of pure and wholesome milk. The only effect this market manipulation has now is to inflate prices of all dairy products. Milk marketing orders are regulations approved by dairy farmers in individual fluid milk markets that require dairy manufacturers to pay minimum monthly prices for milk purchases. The most illogical of all the provisions is the &quot;differential&quot; pricing scheme, which charges the manufacturers of fluid milk additional premiums, based in part on how far the manufacturing plants are from Eau Claire, Wisconsin. This makes about as much sense as the federal government requiring computers manufactured in Maine to be sold at a higher price than those manufactured in the Silicon Valley. The USDA milk marketing rule adopted in April 1999 reduces the number of regional milk marketing orders from 31 to 11 as well as the blatant disparity in the price differentials, but fails to sufficiently change this outdated system to truly enhance industry competitiveness.

Eliminate the Sugar Subsidy

1-Year Savings: $90 million 5-Year Savings: $450 million

The present sugar program consists of a domestic commodity loan program that sets a support price (loan rate) for sugar and establishes an import quota system that restricts foreign competition and ensures a high domestic price for sugar. When Congress reformed most agricultural programs in the 1996 Farm Bill, it left the sugar program virtually untouched. The sugar program costs consumers at least $1.2 billion in higher costs for sugar and sugar-containing products; it costs taxpayers another $90 million in higher prices for sugar and sugar-containing products purchased for the federal government?s feeding programs. A handful of wealthy sugar barons, less than one percent of the nation?s sugar growers, gobble up 58 percent of the program benefits. These are not small family farmers. In a recent year, 33 cane sugar growers obtained more than one million dollars each from this government boondoggle, and one grower alone received $65 million. In fact, USDA purchased $54 million worth of excess sugar in June 2000, which will artificially sweeten the price of sugar and perpetuate the waste.

Eliminate the Market Access Program (MAP)

1-Year Savings: $5 million 5-Year Savings: $348 million

Trying to increase market share is as American as apple pie. Companies use every gimmick in the book to convince consumers to purchase their products. MAP is one gimmick used by some companies to have the American taxpayers pay for the expense of the companies? attempts to expand their market overseas. In the past, this corporate handout has gone to multinational corporations such as Burger King, Dole, Purina, and Sunkist. Even though the 1996 Farm Bill placed tighter restrictions on MAP spending, this program still needs to be eliminated. No one has been able to determine whether MAP actually works, but even if it did, why should private citizens pay for it?

Eliminate Electrification and Telephone Subsidies Provided by the Rural Utilities Service (RUS)

1-Year Savings: $1 million 5-Year Savings: $33 million

The initial mission of the Rural Utilities Service (formerly known as the Rural Electrification Administration) was to assist the nation?s rural areas with utility infrastructure development. This mission has been accomplished. RUS survives today to bring low-cost electricity to formerly remote locations ? including desolate outposts like Aspen and Vail, Colo.; Hilton Head, S.C.; and Potomac, Md. Other beneficiaries of low-cost electricity include major telephone holding companies. An April 1997 GAO report stated that $8 billion, or 19 percent, of RUS?s outstanding principle on loans was owed by borrowers that were experiencing financial difficulties (read: they won?t be paying the money back). RUS survives today in a new and unnecessary form. The electrification and telephone subsidies should be eliminated, especially to nonrural areas, and current borrowers should be encouraged to pay off their loans.

Eliminate the Peanut Subsidy

1-Year Savings: not available 5-Year Savings: not available

As a result of the 1996 Farm Bill, farmers now have the freedom to farm almost everything, except peanuts. Only farmers who own or lease a production quota can legally grow peanuts to be sold for edible use. With a government-guaranteed support price of $610 per ton (compared to a world price of $350 per ton), domestic prices are 74.3 percent higher than the average world market price. This imposes a hidden peanut tax of as much as $500 million annually on U.S. consumers. As taxpayers, consumers are hit again for millions of dollars annually that the federal government pays in inflated peanut prices for government feeding programs. >>

Who's laughing now? ;)

Source: Citizens Against Government Waste .
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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Ravhin,

I've proven I have the facts in my court while you've just made a lot of noise. Now it's your turn to response. I want to know exactly where the Dept. of Ag. is UNDERFUNDED, as you so claim. Put up or shut up.

Because I'm a nice person, I'll even help get you started: according to what I read recently in Consumer Reports the US has far more meat and poultry inspectors than it does fish/seafood inspectors. This is an area where the DOA could use additional funding.

Also, please tell me Ravhin, why don't you want to trim off this Dept.'s fat? By doing so you may just free up some money to fund the problem I mentioned above. In your last post you came damn close to agreeing with me. Try just a bit harder and you can come over to my side of the fence and enjoy the bbq. :)
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
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<< impartial agency like the F&amp;DA certiying the safety of drugs, you'll have to know it well. >>


Impartial, yeah I bet. There must not be ANY connection between big business and the gov't there. U.S. history has shown time and again the gov't can be swayed, bought, influenced, or whatever by any idiot with a load of $$, or someone with a strong public opinion. How the FDA safe-gaurded from this. I'm not saying that the FDA should neccesarily eliminated, but not run by the gov't. It should be a private business, or collection of business' that check out what goes in you. Big daddy government is too nortorious to trust with something so vital to all those who rely on it.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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<< Reduce USDA?s 2,700 county office locations by 50 percent>>


Essential services are no longer being provided. The former SCS (Soil Convservation Service) has been combined with other agencies and renamed the NRCS as a cost saving measure. The goals of the SCS are no longer being met, and the primary goal of the SCS has apparently been abandoned. With current loss of topsoil rates in the US we could be looking at the destruction of the american farm industry within 50 years. In some communities it would be possible to reduce the number of field offices but I highly doubt the 50% number and would rather see a number from the GAO. With a reduction in the number of field office will comes a loss of services and potential damage to the long term future of the US. These offices were deployed as a result of the dust bowl in the 30's and have a goal of preventing similar disasters in our farming communities.


<<Eliminate the Export Enhancement Program (EEP)>>

Currently worldwide the US has on average subsidized prices for wheat. Without these subsidies the american wheat market would be destroyed and nearly all wheat farming in this country would cease. American strategic planners feel that this would harm US interests in negotiations if we become dependent on foreign sources of food. But hey, lets save a buck and become someones wheat gimp like we are OPEC's oil gimp.


<<Reform Milk Marketing Orders>>

I don't know anything about this and I don't consider your source impartial so I won't conceed the point.


<<Eliminate the Sugar Subsidy>>

Absolutely, they have been trying to get rid of it for years, the sugar lobby is quite powerfull though.


<<Eliminate the Market Access Program (MAP)>>

The MAP program insures the US farm industry stays competitive on the world stage and in business. This program is essential from a strategic defense perspective in that without it our farming industry would be eliminated by cheaper overseas imports and in a time of war without internal sources the US could be put into a position of compromise to avoid starving.


<<Eliminate Electrification and Telephone Subsidies Provided by the Rural Utilities Service (RUS)>>

Oh I was hoping you would bring the REA up. So you don't live in a rural community so why should you care if they have electrical or phone service right? Guess what, although the number of rural communities has decreased the need for the low interest loans provided to the rural coop electrical and telephone utilties has not. Believe it or not, this program has been scaled back and the 1million dollars a year it costs is a pittance to ensure that rural communities have access to electricity and telephone service.

<<Eliminate the Peanut Subsidy>>

Don't know enough about this, and again your source is NOT impartial.

<<Who's laughing now?>>

Me, at you.

<<I've proven I have the facts in my court while you've just made a lot of noise.>>

You haven't proven anything other than you believe everything that is written and can cut and paste from a website. Why don't you go talk to a farmer some day and become familiar with the real facts and not one sided looks at only the numbers. Looking at strictly numbers on any budget in the government you can't justify any of them, it's not until you examine the reasons for the spending that you become educated, something you haven't achieved.


<<Now it's your turn to response. I want to know exactly where the Dept. of Ag. is UNDERFUNDED, as you so claim. Put up or shut up.>>


Yet, the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service has allowed imports of meat and poultry from 35 countries without verification that their Salmonella testing is equivalent to the US, spurring a recent Congressional vote to halt meat imports by March of 2000.(47) These failures are, in part, due to underfunding at the USDA and other food safety agencies.

http://www.coalitionforconsumerrights.org/studies/OnTheTable.htm

DeWaal and others contend the system is too inefficient, and that years of underfunding have left the FDA with a food safety program that is little more than a recall agency for contaminated foods.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9704/03/food.safety/

Discussion of test unreliability: During discussion of tests, two valid concerns were expressed: the unreliability of present tests, and the variability of results from lab to lab. Reliable tests are a concern to PARA because to clean up the herds, we need tests showing that a cow is truly Johne's negative or positive with a high level of confidence. The reason why such tests are not available is because of chronic underfunding of research.

http://www.crohns.org/media/pr151098.htm

In addition, the Committee has not fully funded the President's request for the Rural Community Advancement Program (RCAP), underfunding direct loans for water and wastewater and for community facilities. These loans provide the community infrastructure needed to improve the quality of life of rural Americans, and often finance the vital ingredient for diversifying the rural economy. The Committee bill would result in an estimated 35 fewer water and wastewater facilities serving 50,000 rural residents, and 75 fewer rural health clinics, police and fire stations, and child care facilities being built. Furthermore, for the RCAP program to be adaptable to unique local economic development needs, as envisioned in its 1996 Farm Bill authorization, the Senate should strike the Committee's limitation on the flexibility to transfer funds among programs and allow the program to be implemented as authorized.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/textonly/OMB/legislative/sap/105-2/S2159-s.html

Over the last decade, many USDA offices and Agriculture Departments of Land Grant Universities have been underfunded. This underfunding has created an environment that is ripe for inappropriate, scientifically-insupportable, and even unlawful events.

http://www.neosoft.com/~colburn/pabill.html

The Administration strongly opposes a number of reductions to important conservation and environmental programs contained in the Committee bill, which would reduce benefits to all Americans by cutting or eliminating key activities proposed to be carried out through the Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS). The bill and report include highly objectionable language prohibiting NRCS funds from being used for climate change, biomass, urban resources partnerships, most of the American Heritage Rivers (AHR) initiative, or the Community Federal Information Partnership. These actions would harm local community development and environmental restoration efforts. The AHR is an interagency initiative that applies coordinated Federal resources to benefit all river communities, helps communities evaluate their needs and identify funding sources, and cuts red tape so they can promptly implement priority practices. In addition, NRCS soil databases provide the foundation for the Nation's vital soil carbon sequestration efforts. The Committee's action could limit the ability of all USDA agencies that rely on NRCS data to advance valuable research on the effects of climate change on agriculture and potential ways for farmers to adapt to climate change.

These restrictions, coupled with the $70 million reduction to the request for NRCS conservation operations salaries and expenses, would result in a significant step backwards in efforts to improve land stewardship capabilities of farmers and ranchers. Furthermore, the Administration strongly objects to the Committee's reduction in authorized mandatory funding for the Environmental Quality Incentives Program (EQIP) to $174 million. This represents a cut of $26 million from current law and $151 million from the President's request. This program is vitally important in assisting farmers and ranchers in improving their agricultural operations while benefiting all Americans through cleaner water and air, and it is an important component of the Clean Water Action Plan. Coupled with the Committee's funding only $9 million of the requested $48 million increase in discretionary funds for the Plan, this reduction would severely impede progress on cleaning up our Nation's waters. We urge the House to eliminate the EQIP reduction and fully fund the Administration's request for the Clean Water Action Plan.


http://www.agiweb.org/gap/legis106/approps_ag2001.html


By far the biggest long term underfunding of the USDA is the cut's in research $$'s over the past decade. This research is fundemental to the long term growth and development of new farming techniques and understanding of natural forces. This research is something private companies are unwilling and/or unable to accomplish on their own because of the lack of long term rewards to the private sector, but this research does provide long term benefits to society at large. It is very unfortunate that we have shortsighted politicians in this country that will sell our future out for the present.

<<Also, please tell me Ravhin, why don't you want to trim off this Dept.'s fat?>>

Oh I'm not opposed to eliminating ineffecienies, but I'm opposed to people like you campaigning for the elimination of programs you are undeducated about.


<<Impartial, yeah I bet. There must not be ANY connection between big business and the gov't there. U.S. history has shown time and again the gov't can be swayed, bought, influenced, or whatever by any idiot with a load of $$, or someone with a strong public opinion.>>

Name one drug that was approved for sale in the US because it's approval was purchased? Guess what, you will be unable to. You have NO understanding of how the FDA works.


<<I'm not saying that the FDA should neccesarily eliminated, but not run by the gov't. It should be a private business, or collection of business' that check out what goes in you. Big daddy government is too nortorious to trust with something so vital to all those who rely on it.>>

History is littered with the dead bodies of what happens when you trust private enterprise with critical issues of Life and community safety. Profits become more important than the lives at issue. Corporations number one issue will always be the bottom line even in the case of human life. If you think corporations can be trusted with drug approval maybe you should do some research on thalidamide, a drug the FDA was able to prevent being sold but that was sold in Europe and Canada.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
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  • Abolish the Department of Education

    Rep. Patricia Schroeder (D-Colo.) predicted, &quot;No matter what anyone says, the Department of Education will not just write checks to local school boards. They will meddle in everything. I do not want that.&quot;

    ...Just eliminate the Department of Education, end its meddlesome subsidies and regulations, and return its $30 billion budget to the American people in the form of a tax cut. Then let 260 million Americans decide how best to spend that money.
Anybody got any ideas on how we slap some sense into the people running these departments?
  • Regulatory Horror Stories

    To protect the habitat of eight flies, San Bernardino County had to relocate its new hospital and had to spend $4.5 million to provide 10 acres of protected habitat. No amount of bureaucratic obfuscation will convince any sensible person that flies are an endangered species in the United States - and that they are worth a half million dollars a piece.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Nice posts by the Cannondale Rider (though I prefer Colnago) and Rahvin.

Because a program is not perfect is no argument for its abandonment. Almost every argument by every Libertarian starts out with some absurd example of a failing by some governmental agency that is clear evidence the agency should be dismantled. What is it lawyers say: &quot;Bad cases make bad law&quot;? By following the same line of thought, some of you guys would be sweeping floors at McDonald's rather than having been given a second chance-remodeled so to speak-and sent off to college. Tsk, tsk.

Frankly, I think the FDA should have more power, not less. The sheer lunacy in the vitamin and therapeutic supplement industry ought to scare the bejezzus out of anyone. I can think of at least 100 examples like that one.

Libertarians Unite! (So we can launch you all in one piece to the moon! :) )
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
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certainly, I agree that the government needs an over-haul and restructuring, but a Libertarian form of government wouldn't work. Do you really think that people would live in harmony together if their wasn't a government? No, it would be survival of the fittest. THose with the biggest guns would rule.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Got any clear evidence that the Department of Education should not be dismantled?
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
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I think we can all agree that our government is out of control on the spending front and that reform is needed. Just look at the 10 million spent on cow flatulence, or maybe the $800 toilet seats. Just plain eliminating whole sections of government haphazardly would create anarchy though. As far as education, I find it interesting how we spend vast amounts of money but our students rank so poorly in comparison to many other countries. Here is an interesting article on the subject..... link
 

silhoutte

Banned
Mar 1, 2001
316
0
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<< History is littered with the dead bodies of what happens when you trust private enterprise with critical issues of Life and community safety. Profits become more important than the lives at issue. Corporations number one issue will always be the bottom line even in the case of human life. >>



extremely sad but ultimately true. you can't believe how big business has bought this government that we have been masked into believe is ours. it was at one time but isn't now and hopefully it will be ours again in the future.

one day when the people, who have been disenfranchised, finally understand and can not feed their own children nor breath the air, there will be quite a ruckus. politicians blind themselves to this inevitability while stuffing their pockets w/ coporate money.

there are already signs of it, i.e. Governor Ventura, and there will be more. man, i sound like a radical :) even though I'm quite a quiet and conservative person. but trust me, i will be one of those ppl holding on the steps of our government w/ my pitch fork :)

*note to self* go out and buy new heavy duty pitch fork.
 

minus1972

Platinum Member
Oct 4, 2000
2,245
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jebus [no, it's not spelled wrong, watch the simpsons]...LIBERTYorDEATH...put yourself for one instant in the shoes of someone who is down on his/her luck, looking to get a job. You have no money, and therefore few clothes. It is, therefore, dificult for you to find a job [not presentable/taken seriously]. Now, current government programs allow you to obtain funds through unemployment/welfare to meet basic costs of living. Food stamps BUY YOUR FOOD. Government programs help to educate you and get you back into the work force and off of welfare. So please, step off of your pedestal

<< Off with you, little penguin. >>

(how about we sell off all the federal prisons??? hey! here's an idea, all those cons can stay at your house!) and think about the people who really need money instead of b*tching to get your couple hundred back from the govt so you can buy a GeForce3.

note: Please don't respond to this post with countless links to outdated articles on the inefficency of the welfare program, etc. That's not my main point; so please don't make a fuss about it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,935
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Perhaps one reason our students do so poorly is that the life our society offers them is stuffed so full of empty jobs so devoid of real meaning that they could care less. We have a society propelled by money, fame, and power that might be classified as a motivational force appealing only to a mere minority of the most maladjusted. In one of the harshest environments on earth a group of hunter gatherers spend about 20 hours a week attending to their basic needs. The rest is play time.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
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Well Moonbeam I guess you should just move to this Utopia you mention and see how long you live. Face it bucko....you've got it better here than you would anywhere else in the world. Work hard and you will be rewarded....choose not to work and we should kick your ass to the curb and let you die. Social Darwinism baby....if you're weak then we don't need you, it's not the responsibility of society to make sure you live.
 

gogeeta13

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2000
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Asmuch as all these ideas are good, the biggest problem is not spending too much, its spending it in the wrong places.
 

gogeeta13

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2000
5,721
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Asmuch as all these ideas are good, the biggest problem is not spending too much, its spending it in the wrong places.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
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rahvin - I'm not too worked up about the &quot;stratigic&quot; part of the wheat farmers. First, Canada is the main competition to the US in wheat growing and I just don't see those dastardly Canadian not shipping wheat. Second, farming itself wouldn't suffer, individual farmers would. It would just speed up what already is happening and more and more corporate farmers would take over. Individual farmers tend to be less efficient, they tend to own more machinery than is relly needed to farm their smaller pieces of land (although a fair pick of farm equipment actually moves across the country and follows the harvest).

There would be a rather severe impact on the quickly shrinking number of traditional farmers with a spill over into the small towns that support them. My wife's family owns a farm in Kansas and the part that still farms it would be pretty hard hit. That part of the country is emptying out quick now and cutting aid drastically would speed that process up.

I bet that the budget could be redeployed within the DoA to better serve the more modern concerns of the American public at large, but the same goes for just about any government agency. the best thing to do is restrict the budget and force an evaluation. I'm hoping that the business-centric team Bush is putting into place will do just that. I do agree that cutting what you do not understand is the path to ruin.

Ornery - You nad I actually see pretty close to eye-to-eye. I think that the teacher's union that grips the lower school system, a union that is aided and abetted by the DOE, is one of the real evils that government has foisted on the American people, and that evil is striking at our children.

Michael