Government shutdown looms over ObamaCare

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,062
48,073
136
Are any Obamacare supporters ever going to comment on the Wake County Schools story that Fern posted, or are you just going to ignore it completely and pretend it never happened?

What's to say? Employer mandates in that form won't work well, which is why they should be delayed or removed. They aren't a necessary part of the law. This has already been discussed, so why were you so excited about it?

Are you going to comment on the total irresponsibility of conservatives in government as their threats show?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
What's to say? Employer mandates in that form won't work well, which is why they should be delayed or removed. They aren't a necessary part of the law. This has already been discussed, so why were you so excited about it?

Are you going to comment on the total irresponsibility of conservatives in government as their threats show?
It was delayed, not removed -- and the delay was not done to prevent the type of damage described above. Instead, they (Congress) simply claimed that the corporate reporting system isn't ready and those exact mandates were pushed back one whole year. Did I miss the part wherein they plan to remove those corporate mandates altogether?

A rather significant portion of the ACA is flawed and may cause irreparable damage to individuals, businesses, and quite possibly the entire economy.

This isn't make-believe. Stories like the one Fern posted will occur throughout every industry and market in the entire country. The repercussions will be incredibly painful, and there is currently no talk of preventing said damage by removing entire portions of the Act altogether. You may believe that the corporate mandates aren't necessary, and I wholeheartedly agree, but that's not how most ACA supporters here and in Congress see it.

Why don't you ask someone whose hours will be cut to below 30 how they feel about your wonderful ACA? There will be MILLIONS of people who fit that description in 2015, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding someone to ask...

AFAIC, the only semi-responsible members of Congress I see are those who wish to repeal the entire Act. The vast majority of the bill is garbage, it's dangerous, and it needs to go.
 
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berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
I think we do have an obligation to help the poor in this country. I believe we should look for solutions that actually help people because what we've got now enslaves them. We give too much healthcare away and we give too much food away. We make being poor too comfortable. I'm all for giving the basics but being able to buy lobster and steak with food stamps is just too much. People should get the basics for survival, they don't need cases of Coke to survive. I know someone living in subsidized housing that has central air. She has lived there for 8 years. Why move? Why better yourself? Lots of people settle with "just enough" and "just enough" is a lot lower with all the "help" poor people get from the government.
This part strikes me as fairly ridiculous. Being poor is so completely far from "comfortable" that it's hard to know where to start. Anyone buying lobster or (good quality) steak with foodstamps is going to be suffering from extreme hunger the rest of the month, because benefits are meager. Central air is hardly the world's most exotic luxury in 2013, and for poor senior citizens in some areas can literally be life or death (they could have a window unit I guess, but that's more expensive over time). Most of all, though, no one in history has aimed at being poor and didn't want to be rich instead. There will always be some small percent of fraud/waste/corruption that we need to be vigilant for and minimize, but I'd seriously suggest considering some community service in poor areas that lets you get to know the people and see how hard-working most poor people are despite never getting ahead. Poverty in America is widespread and its prevalence in a nation as rich as we are should shock and disgust everyone.

And having poor cancer patients "go to the emergency room" is orders of magnitude more expensive and less effective than treating them regularly.

Cost, and availability of care. Doctors don't grow on trees and most of them don't go through 11 years of school not to get paid at the end. Supply and demand goes both ways.
The supply of doctors isn't a free market, production is controlled by the AMA who have a monopoly and artificially inflate the price (ie wages) by lowering supply. There are so few medical schools because the AMA won't allow more until they decide doctors will remain scarce enough. There are also plenty of people who become doctors for reasons other than becoming rich. We have tons of teachers, for example, and that pays poorly. There are plenty of doctors in every other single-payer country in the world. There is no reason to think we would have more of a shortage of doctors than we do now.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
The supply of doctors isn't a free market, production is controlled by the AMA who have a monopoly and artificially inflate the price (ie wages) by lowering supply. There are so few medical schools because the AMA won't allow more until they decide doctors will remain scarce enough. There are also plenty of people who become doctors for reasons other than becoming rich. We have tons of teachers, for example, and that pays poorly. There are plenty of doctors in every other single-payer country in the world. There is no reason to think we would have more of a shortage of doctors than we do now.

You have a things wrong and omit important points. First of all this isn't teaching. We're talking about professions which demand extraordinary skills, not just good will. There is an inherent high standard of perfection with draconian punishments for failure. There is not just intellectual needs but rare emotional qualities required to endure the stress and remain functional. Ever diminishing resources and ever increasing nonsense regulations are not positive recruitment incentives. Then the "get rich" myth again. The best get paid very well. Indeed they are rich by most standards. That's not most practitioners. You also fail to account for the massive debt incurred while spending potential income earning years in training then begrudge them if they recoup their substantial investment and work under conditions you'd scream about if you had to contend with. Europe? Their system of practice isn't even comparable. They don't have our politicians.

Forget the AMA. Your going to have trouble finding qualified people regardless. Become a nurse and tell us how great things are.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,723
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Sorta like how once we invaded Iraq? After all, the anti-war left had their chance to defeat the Authorization of Force bill when it was introduced. Were they being "sore losers" when they didn't just stand down and support the Bush administration in an effort to win the war rather than protesting it and demanding we "bring the troops home"?

It's one thing to protest it. It's another to deny funding to the DOD and the rest of the government until the troops are brought back home.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
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Well that's a starting point however you are missing something important. I want you to look at how government has handled every major issue in your lifetime and point to the ones where neither political gain nor special interests did not play a significant role.

Also being paid by cure? You sound like cures are options. You've created a disincentive to treat problematic cases. I do however find merit in your intent. I'd like to see real reform handled by professionals and then completed work handed to Congress including legislation and regulations and released to the public at the same time to minimize partisan politics.

Curiously it has been obamacare supporters who have voiced the most objections perhaps because they value their party and government more than the best result.


More whining and still no solutions.

Have you heard of the south park super hero, Captain hindsight? He's pretty much a characature of the republican party (and a apparently their supporters) and captures their essence to a T.

http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Hindsight

Edit:

Scratch that, captain hindsight actually tells people what they should have done.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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More whining and still no solutions.

Have you heard of the south park super hero, Captain hindsight? He's pretty much a characature of the republican party (and a apparently their supporters) and captures their essence to a T.

http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Hindsight

Edit:

Scratch that, captain hindsight actually tells people what they should have done.

I've made suggestions before all this was enacted. I mistook you for someone interested in options. My apologies.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
14,927
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I've made suggestions before all this was enacted. I mistook you for someone interested in options. My apologies.

You offered your opinion several years ago? Why thank you!
What that has to do with this current thread I don't know. Maybe you just assume everyone follows you around and knows you really well, I'm not one of those people, sorry.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
This part strikes me as fairly ridiculous. Being poor is so completely far from "comfortable" that it's hard to know where to start.
How many 50 inch plasma TVs should the poor have? I've seen real poverty in places like Cuba. The "poor" here send money to the real poor there. I'm not saying that poor people live in luxury here but they've got it pretty damn good in comparison.
Anyone buying lobster or (good quality) steak with foodstamps is going to be suffering from extreme hunger the rest of the month, because benefits are meager.
Do you have any idea how much people can get per person in food stamps? It isn't meager at all. Plus the real point I was making is that luxury items shouldn't be covered by food stamps. They should cover the basics and the basics only. No pop, no ice cream, no candy, no lobster.
Most of all, though, no one in history has aimed at being poor and didn't want to be rich instead.
I'm not talking about aiming to be poor I'm talking about making their poorness too comfortable that its hard to escape. Lets say somebody wants to take a new job but they are on assistance. They have to weigh whether the lost benefits is going to be more than the gain in pay. In many cases getting a raise can lead to a lower quality of life. If you can't improve yourself to totally overcome the differences between benefits and the new job why take the job?
There will always be some small percent of fraud/waste/corruption that we need to be vigilant for and minimize, but I'd seriously suggest considering some community service in poor areas that lets you get to know the people and see how hard-working most poor people are despite never getting ahead. Poverty in America is widespread and its prevalence in a nation as rich as we are should shock and disgust everyone.
I want poor people to not be poor just as much as anybody. But I don't want bad life choices subsidized to the extent they are now. I believe it leads to more bad life choices, not less.
And having poor cancer patients "go to the emergency room" is orders of magnitude more expensive and less effective than treating them regularly.
I said we should help the poor with health care. I said that in response to the totally privatized system you were talking about. I wasn't arguing for a completely privatized system.
We have tons of teachers, for example, and that pays poorly. There are plenty of doctors in every other single-payer country in the world. There is no reason to think we would have more of a shortage of doctors than we do now.
It's much easier to become a teacher than it is a doctor. I think that has more to do with us having "tons" of teachers than the wages.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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You offered your opinion several years ago? Why thank you!
What that has to do with this current thread I don't know. Maybe you just assume everyone follows you around and knows you really well, I'm not one of those people, sorry.

You didn't ask did you? All you hit me with was "whining" while I said your ideas were worth discussing. I thought it might be a starting point, but I was mistaken. You complained about hindsight then dismissed that as an excuse and went for "I don't follow you around". When that failed. So defend and attack. Praise the Lord! Obama the Deliverer has come and you are a Defender of the Faith.

The opiate of today's masses.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
14,927
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You didn't ask did you? All you hit me with was "whining" while I said your ideas were worth discussing. I thought it might be a starting point, but I was mistaken. You complained about hindsight then dismissed that as an excuse and went for "I don't follow you around". When that failed. So defend and attack. Praise the Lord! Obama the Deliverer has come and you are a Defender of the Faith.

The opiate of today's masses.

In fact I did. The point of my post was to get past the political bullshit and whining and actually provide solutions, no one other than me has done so.

When did righties become bitches? All they do is whine. You name it and they will find something to whine about. When something they were whining about is addressed they whine about how long it took to get it addressed.

Ask them to provide a solution to a problem and they will whine about that.

Well guess what, you had your chance to add your input into the healthcare reform debate and you chose to whine about it instead of contributing.
So go to your room like the little kids you are and don't come out until you are done whining.

No one likes a whiner.


I await your whiny responses;)

Actually it's pretty fucking easy. It starts by ignoring what I wrote and instead provide solutions to improve the US healthcare system.

Instead you chose to sarcastically whine about my post.

You guys are so predictable.


What I want to hear from the right is - just once - a rational, workable alternative to Obamacare that solves the death-spiral trajectory of the pre-Obamacare, status-quo, private-insurer-based system, with its ever greater number of un- and under-insureds.

Instead, all we hear is "kill obamacare," as if that's a solution to anything.

It's the height of irresponsibility to merely oppose, oppose, oppose without actually offering substantive alternatives.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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In fact I did. The point of my post was get past the political bullshit and whining and actually provide solutions, no one other than me has done so.

You aren't ready for solutions. The process (again) needs to be led by experts in the various fields- those who are recognized by peers as superior in reasoning and ethics. Providers of all sorts, health care advocates, actuaries, those skilled in legal language,
and the kitchen sink if need be.
Fund them to do an analysis of the current system, explore modifications and changes, compare and model their effects and give an honest assessment of costs, advantages and disadvantages of each. Have the results written up with legal language to minimize unintended consequences.

The details would be released to the public and Congress at the same time to minimize any skullduggery from either party.

I can give isolated examples of improvements but I haven't enough resources to create a master plan and so far no one else does. This needs to be a coordinated effort involving care and finance and we are tampering with the most complex system ever to exist.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
In fact I did. The point of my post was get past the political bullshit and whining and actually provide solutions, no one other than me has done so.

Oh pleeze.

You've been here since 2000. We've had this discussion a zillion times. I've personally written extensively on problems and recommendations from the AMA and the New England Journal of Medicine etc.

We're not interested, or at least I'm not, in sitting down and typing out more long posts on the issue.

Fern
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
14,927
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Oh pleeze.

You've been here since 2000. We've had this discussion a zillion times. I've personally written extensively on problems and recommendations from the AMA and the New England Journal of Medicine etc.

We're not interested, or at least I'm not, in sitting down and typing out more long posts on the issue.

Fern

I've only started posting in P&N since the last couple of years. But that doesn't matter, you guys complain and never offer solutions or hold republicans responsible for offering solutions.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Oh pleeze.

You've been here since 2000. We've had this discussion a zillion times. I've personally written extensively on problems and recommendations from the AMA and the New England Journal of Medicine etc.

We're not interested, or at least I'm not, in sitting down and typing out more long posts on the issue.

Fern

I think you make rather poor calculations wrt what path might lead to more of what you want. Well, if what you really want is a more effective way to deliver services to people who need them.

Dems realize that the ACA will have problems & growing pains, so they're actually seeking solutions. Repubs just want to go back to the way it was, perhaps with modifications that help the rich get richer.

With Dems, you're looking at a beast that's already in motion, so it can be steered. With Repubs, you've got an elephant sitting on its ass, and it sure as hell won't move just because you want it to.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I've only started posting in P&N since the last couple of years. But that doesn't matter, you guys complain an never offer solutions or hold republicans responsible for offering solutions.

The solutions been offered time and again here.

And I'm well aware that neither the Dems or Repubs are interested in what physicians and the HC industry have to say.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I think you make rather poor calculations wrt what path might lead to more of what you want. Well, if what you really want is a more effective way to deliver services to people who need them.

Dems realize that the ACA will have problems & growing pains, so they're actually seeking solutions. Repubs just want to go back to the way it was, perhaps with modifications that help the rich get richer.

With Dems, you're looking at a beast that's already in motion, so it can be steered. With Repubs, you've got an elephant sitting on its ass, and it sure as hell won't move just because you want it to.

The Dems program is a non-starter and it cannot be steered into the direction I support. It simply cannot. Notwithstanding that the Dem program in no way whatsoever resembles what the physicians and HC industry is talking about, standardization of care is strongly opposed by trial lawyers. So, the Dems won't touch it with a 100' pole.

The Repubs don't seem interest in the position I support either. They're too busy playing 'opposition party' which means not much more, if anything, but speaking out against Obamacare. While i agree with that, I admit they aren't doing any 'constructive', at least not anything I've seen.

Fern
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
14,927
136
You aren't ready for solutions. The process (again) needs to be led by experts in the various fields- those who are recognized by peers as superior in reasoning and ethics. Providers of all sorts, health care advocates, actuaries, those skilled in legal language,
and the kitchen sink if need be.
Fund them to do an analysis of the current system, explore modifications and changes, compare and model their effects and give an honest assessment of costs, advantages and disadvantages of each. Have the results written up with legal language to minimize unintended consequences.

The details would be released to the public and Congress at the same time to minimize any skullduggery from either party.

I can give isolated examples of improvements but I haven't enough resources to create a master plan and so far no one else does. This needs to be a coordinated effort involving care and finance and we are tampering with the most complex system ever to exist.


Then perhaps you shouldn't complain about the ACA until there are better solutions.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The Dems program is a non-starter and it cannot be steered into the direction I support. It simply cannot.

That's just what you believe, in a rather self defeating way.

Notwithstanding that the Dem program in no way whatsoever resembles what the physicians and HC industry is talking about, standardization of care is strongly opposed by trial lawyers. So, the Dems won't touch it with a 100' pole.

Again, Faith based motivated reasoning.

The Repubs don't seem interest in the position I support either. They're too busy playing 'opposition party' which means not much more, if anything, but speaking out against Obamacare. While i agree with that, I admit they aren't doing any 'constructive', at least not anything I've seen.

Fern

Try speaking out to say that you want to make the ACA better. Really.

While you may not see much of a chance, it's the only choice where there is one.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Then perhaps you shouldn't complain about the ACA until there are better solutions.

Lets see... We could have worked on real solutions but this thing was pushed.

Yeah I'll complain because a better solution wasn't wanted. Hey if someone offers you crap is not cyanide. Eat up.