Government jobs - Pay negotiation?

[Jadow]

Seriously Librarian, LOL.

When you're in a pressure job where you're deposed by lawyers about a security breach you found, you provide analytics on million dollar deals on a daily basis, the idea of sitting in a library in an "academic" setting sounds really easy and really tempting.

 

[bonkers325]

you have to have leverage in order to bargain

tell them that another government has offered you the same position at $10k more

 

[AndrewR]

For a federal job, you can negotiate a higher starting salary within the pay grade (GS scale) with something called Advance In Grade or something like that. You have to prove that you have a current salary or another offer that is equivalent to the step (1-10) that you are requesting. I managed a 3 step increase when I was hired, which was nice.

Healthcare costs are very cheap (I pay <$180/month for a family plan), and the job security, especially in this economy, is a very nice feeling. I am basically guaranteed a pay raise every year and regular increases up the steps within my pay grade.

Unfortunately, the GS scale is being whittled away in favor of NSPS, at least within the Department of Defense. I'm immune to that for now, which why I took this position. The next administration may decide to overhaul NSPS anyway, since that was a Rumsfeld initiative.

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: hanoverphist
you have to figure in the benefits as well. also, if its federal, no fed tax witholding. they still do that, dont they? when lake havasu was romancing me and trying to get me to move there, the manager for the dept that wanted me told me "c'mon, you love crappy pay and great benefits! also, the retirement is great!" hes right, the retirement and benefits rock, but the pay was too low to make me want to move to a hotter place with less to do than phoenix.

I don't think that's ever been the case.

It certainly isn't now.

 

[Tobolo]

State jobs usually aren't up for negotiation. They are set by the governing board (board of regents, governor, etc.) Couldn't hurt to try though!

 

[shopbruin]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
I am flying out for a job interview in a couple of weeks and if I accepted the job I would be a state employee. The job pays poorly even for the field (specifically, the pay ranges from 31-39 and the average starting salary for people in this field is 39-40). Now, from what I have been told you rarely start out at the top of the pay scale (which is what I would need).

Is any aspect negotiable beyond that pay band? From what I could tell that pay is more or less in line with other employees there*.

Negotiable above and beyond the listed pay band? No. The listed job usually is a specific pay title, with an already pre-determined pay range. If you want to get up and beyond that pay band, you have to move up to the next position.

For example, this may be a librarian I position, but if there is a librarian II position, you will find a higher pay range, but also different duties.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Originally posted by: bonkers325
you have to have leverage in order to bargain

tell them that another government has offered you the same position at $10k more

I don't think that's a good way to go. The pay range is set. If he says another company is offering $10k more the first company will just say, "Well, we certainly can't compete with that, and we don't want to stand in your way of a better opportunity. Good luck to you."

As much as the OP may think they "need" him they probably don't, and they'll just go down the list of the other 100 people fresh out of college who applied for the job.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Librarian? What state is that? I bet that's an easy job

Um, yeah, sure. Easy job. I truly hope you are not that ignorant.

Uhm.... being a librarian is NOT an easy job.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: amdskip
So whats so hard about a librarian job? It's not a smart a$$ question, just would like to know.

It really depends on the position. First though you need to understand that what a "librarian" is has changed. Until a few decades ago almost every staff member you encountered was a degreed librarian. That started to change as budgets were cut (starting mainly in the late 80's) and now very few are actual degreed librarians. To be considered a "librarian" you must at a minimum possesses a Masters in Library Science (later renamed to Library and Information Science). In a public library very dew of the staff will have this while at an academic library most will...it just depends on the location.

So when you see that "librarian" sitting at the circulation desk realize that they are not who I am talking about. A librarian can do a number of different jobs, and what they do depends on the setting. In this particular case the job is to be a specialist in a particular area of content for a state agency. That means that I need to learn literally EVERYTHING there is to know about that particular area. Furthermore, I need to keep abreast of every change in the field. Now knowing the answer is NOT an option, period. At all times I need to know the answer (and be able to provide proof enough to hold up in court) or know where to find the answer.

So let's create an example: At a larger university with a good engineering program you will have a librarian that specializes in that. In all likelyhood they got their Bachelors in that field and THEN went on to get their Masters. They are expected to know not just the area they specialized in but every other dicipline...so they need to understand chemical, mechanical, civil, etc.

Answering reference questions is only one part of the job. That specialist is also expected to determine which materials on their subjects should be purchased for their library. They will create new resources for their area. This would likely mean that they are managing the creation of an entirely new website for the library or something similar.


It goes on but that is about the briefest overview I could give. Let me know if you have any questions.

Jeez. For $35k, forget that

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: mjuszczak

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Librarian? What state is that? I bet that's an easy job

Um, yeah, sure. Easy job. I truly hope you are not that ignorant.

Uhm.... being a librarian is NOT an easy job.

I pissed off the librarians. Am I destined to live in fear for the rest of my life, never knowing when a librarian will strike at me?? 🙁

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
For a federal job, you can negotiate a higher starting salary within the pay grade (GS scale) with something called Advance In Grade or something like that. You have to prove that you have a current salary or another offer that is equivalent to the step (1-10) that you are requesting. I managed a 3 step increase when I was hired, which was nice.

Healthcare costs are very cheap (I pay <$180/month for a family plan), and the job security, especially in this economy, is a very nice feeling. I am basically guaranteed a pay raise every year and regular increases up the steps within my pay grade.

Unfortunately, the GS scale is being whittled away in favor of NSPS, at least within the Department of Defense. I'm immune to that for now, which why I took this position. The next administration may decide to overhaul NSPS anyway, since that was a Rumsfeld initiative.

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: hanoverphist
you have to figure in the benefits as well. also, if its federal, no fed tax witholding. they still do that, dont they? when lake havasu was romancing me and trying to get me to move there, the manager for the dept that wanted me told me "c'mon, you love crappy pay and great benefits! also, the retirement is great!" hes right, the retirement and benefits rock, but the pay was too low to make me want to move to a hotter place with less to do than phoenix.

I don't think that's ever been the case.

It certainly isn't now.

I believe it used to be the case that Federal employees had a retirement system totally outside of Social Security and therefore did not have the Social Security tax withheld. IIRC that was changed in the late 1970's though with a revamp of the Federal retirement system.

 

[Vette73]

Gov employees pay federal tax. MAYBE what some are thinking is that there was a retirement system called CSRS. They would not pay SS tax as they had the same amount taken out to pay toward their pension in the CSRS system. That has changed and we are now under something called FERS. You pay SS tax and SS is part of your retirement now.

OP very VERY unlikely you can get a higher salary. In my office when people try to negotiate with someone on the staffing team, what they say is? HaHaHa. We even make fun of some people. Like the person that was brought on as a GS7 and tried to negotiate her way from a 7 to a supervisor level 9. Needless to say she?s not getting it.

Now what AndrewR was talking about is very rare and hard to do. But if someone is brought on and they are in high demand, have lots of exp, lots of education/certs. Etc? AND can show they were making more in the private sector then we might be able to bump them up to get them onboard. But it has to be approved by the higher ups. So even asking a HR person for it will only get you a let me look into it at best. If the HR person is getting heat as to why we have found anybody yet then things can happen. But again this is not the norm. If you apply for a GS5-7 job you will be brought on at either a GS5-1 or a GS7-1 and that is it.

I came onboard at a GS-7. That was the highest to start at. I make $39k. I will hit my 1 year next month and get my GS-9 and be bumped up to $48k. My job tops out at GS-12 ($70k). If I want a 13 I will have to go else where or hope they redo the PD for my job to allow a 13.


<- Works for State Dept HR

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Gov employees pay federal tax. MAYBE what some are thinking is that there was a retirement system called CSRS. They would not pay SS tax as they had the same amount taken out to pay toward their pension in the CSRS system. That has changed and we are now under something called FERS. You pay SS tax and SS is part of your retirement now.

OP very VERY unlikely you can get a higher salary. In my office when people try to negotiate with someone on the staffing team, what they say is? HaHaHa. We even make fun of some people. Like the person that was brought on as a GS7 and tried to negotiate her way from a 7 to a supervisor level 9. Needless to say she?s not getting it.

Now what AndrewR was talking about is very rare and hard to do. But if someone is brought on and they are in high demand, have lots of exp, lots of education/certs. Etc? AND can show they were making more in the private sector then we might be able to bump them up to get them onboard. But it has to be approved by the higher ups. So even asking a HR person for it will only get you a let me look into it at best. If the HR person is getting heat as to why we have found anybody yet then things can happen. But again this is not the norm. If you apply for a GS5-7 job you will be brought on at either a GS5-1 or a GS7-1 and that is it.

I came onboard at a GS-7. That was the highest to start at. I make $39k. I will hit my 1 year next month and get my GS-9 and be bumped up to $48k. My job tops out at GS-12 ($70k). If I want a 13 I will have to go else where or hope they redo the PD for my job to allow a 13.


<- Works for State Dept HR

Didn't know that about CSRS -- no wonder people talk about it being so much better. FERS is trash from what I've seen. Thanks for making me rely on Social Security, since that'll be insolvent in a couple decades.

My Advance In Grade had to approved by first the director (my supervisor's boss) and then by someone in higher headquarters, though they told me at the time that it is almost always approved unless there's some exceptional circumstance. Now, I requested the same advance from another unit, which was just starting out, and was denied because they had no extra budget for an increase in salary so that job would have been a Step 1.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
You'll probably get near the top. I know I started at the higher end for engineering.

Yes, fine, but what I am wondering is if there is anything you can negotiate outside that pay band?

I've had several gov. jobs and have never been successful in negotiating outside the pay band.

I wasn't able to either.

Same here. In fact, a lot of them use a Grade/Step system when it comes to those pay bands. For example, maybe the position is a Grade 22 which pays betwen $35k-50k and each pay grade is sub categorized into 12 steps where step 12 makes 50k. Everyone who gets a job at Grade 22 starts at 35k which is step 1 and will go up in steps as their annual raise. Getting promoted means possibly increasing your Grade which will start you back at step 1, but you will be making more and your band might change to something like 55k-75k using another 12 step system.

You get it? Obviously I don't know if the job you are applying for is like that but what I am trying to say is that don't be surprised if they offer you the lowest pay in that band they showed you without any chance of negotiation. The idea with government jobs is that your hours are minimal and the benefits are out of this world which make up for pay.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Gov employees pay federal tax. MAYBE what some are thinking is that there was a retirement system called CSRS. They would not pay SS tax as they had the same amount taken out to pay toward their pension in the CSRS system. That has changed and we are now under something called FERS. You pay SS tax and SS is part of your retirement now.

OP very VERY unlikely you can get a higher salary. In my office when people try to negotiate with someone on the staffing team, what they say is? HaHaHa. We even make fun of some people. Like the person that was brought on as a GS7 and tried to negotiate her way from a 7 to a supervisor level 9. Needless to say she?s not getting it.

Now what AndrewR was talking about is very rare and hard to do. But if someone is brought on and they are in high demand, have lots of exp, lots of education/certs. Etc? AND can show they were making more in the private sector then we might be able to bump them up to get them onboard. But it has to be approved by the higher ups. So even asking a HR person for it will only get you a let me look into it at best. If the HR person is getting heat as to why we have found anybody yet then things can happen. But again this is not the norm. If you apply for a GS5-7 job you will be brought on at either a GS5-1 or a GS7-1 and that is it.

I came onboard at a GS-7. That was the highest to start at. I make $39k. I will hit my 1 year next month and get my GS-9 and be bumped up to $48k. My job tops out at GS-12 ($70k). If I want a 13 I will have to go else where or hope they redo the PD for my job to allow a 13.


<- Works for State Dept HR

Didn't know that about CSRS -- no wonder people talk about it being so much better. FERS is trash from what I've seen. Thanks for making me rely on Social Security, since that'll be insolvent in a couple decades.

My Advance In Grade had to approved by first the director (my supervisor's boss) and then by someone in higher headquarters, though they told me at the time that it is almost always approved unless there's some exceptional circumstance. Now, I requested the same advance from another unit, which was just starting out, and was denied because they had no extra budget for an increase in salary so that job would have been a Step 1.

The best way I can cliff CSRS and FERS is this...

CSRS = Stay with the GOV for a long time 25+ years and get a great pension. But don;t leave and try not to use any sick time as that helps when you retire. Allowed into the TSP (Govs version of 401k) but no match

FERS = Come and stay at least 3 years. After that come and go as you please as long as the last 5 years is with the GOV. You also get 5% match on TSP. If you have career status, 3 years, then your time is saved and will be given credit.

So they are different enough to say neither is better the other. But for long time Gov workers CSRS is great for pension.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
You'll probably get near the top. I know I started at the higher end for engineering.

Yes, fine, but what I am wondering is if there is anything you can negotiate outside that pay band?

I've had several gov. jobs and have never been successful in negotiating outside the pay band.

I wasn't able to either.

Same here. In fact, a lot of them use a Grade/Step system when it comes to those pay bands. For example, maybe the position is a Grade 22 which pays betwen $35k-50k and each pay grade is sub categorized into 12 steps where step 12 makes 50k. Everyone who gets a job at Grade 22 starts at 35k which is step 1 and will go up in steps as their annual raise. Getting promoted means possibly increasing your Grade which will start you back at step 1, but you will be making more and your band might change to something like 55k-75k using another 12 step system.

You get it? Obviously I don't know if the job you are applying for is like that but what I am trying to say is that don't be surprised if they offer you the lowest pay in that band they showed you without any chance of negotiation. The idea with government jobs is that your hours are minimal and the benefits are out of this world which make up for pay.

I do not believe that this state has steps. I actually asked about it and they stated that most people start in the middle and it is very rare for someone to start on the high end. I would basically be fighting to get the peak just so I could pay the bills each month since there is no good way to survive off of much less than 40k.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Same here. In fact, a lot of them use a Grade/Step system when it comes to those pay bands. For example, maybe the position is a Grade 22 which pays betwen $35k-50k and each pay grade is sub categorized into 12 steps where step 12 makes 50k. Everyone who gets a job at Grade 22 starts at 35k which is step 1 and will go up in steps as their annual raise. Getting promoted means possibly increasing your Grade which will start you back at step 1, but you will be making more and your band might change to something like 55k-75k using another 12 step system.

You get it? Obviously I don't know if the job you are applying for is like that but what I am trying to say is that don't be surprised if they offer you the lowest pay in that band they showed you without any chance of negotiation. The idea with government jobs is that your hours are minimal and the benefits are out of this world which make up for pay.

I do not believe that this state has steps. I actually asked about it and they stated that most people start in the middle and it is very rare for someone to start on the high end. I would basically be fighting to get the peak just so I could pay the bills each month since there is no good way to survive off of much less than 40k.

Well, best of luck. The way I see it is that the answer is no until you try. However, I should also warn you that it isn't uncommon when it comes to government jobs for them to write you off as a possibility if you try to negotiate too high. All jobs do that to a degree of course but this is often more strict in the government job world than the commercial world. Government jobs are just too high in demand and since their goal is not to try and make as much profit as possible it really doesn't matter to them if they do not hire the "best person for the job" if that best person is also the most expensive candidate. They want a quality working force, but the point is that the benefits of hiring the best quality working force are not as high or even possible due to funding as it is in the commercial world. It's just a different set of rules. Don't let that get you down, but just keep it in mind during your interview.

 

[0roo0roo]

with the economy being bad, gov jobs are safe and desirable.
negotiate?
lol i dont think so, they got all the cards!