Gov’t won’t even give page counts of secret PATRIOT Act documents

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
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link

OAKLAND, California—Lawsuits challenging government secrecy have fared pretty terribly in the post-9/11 era, with the most recent example being the Supreme Court's ruling last month that a group of journalists and activists have no right to sue over the FISA spying law.

Only a few cases of this sort are left, including two Bay Area lawsuits being pushed forward by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. One is the San Francisco case over NSA wiretapping, which the government is trying to shut down using the "state secrets" privilege. The other is EFF's case demanding to see documents about how the government is interpreting Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act.

It isn't just activists that are concerned, either. In 2009, Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) said the government's use of "Section 215 is unfortunately cloaked in secrecy. Some day that cloak will be lifted, and future generations will ask whether our actions today meet the test of a democratic society." In 2011, two US Senators, Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Mark Udall (D-CO), publicly voiced their concerns, too, suggesting the government had a pretty wild interpretation of what it was allowed to do under the PATRIOT Act. "When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry,” Wyden told The New York Times.

It isn't known what kind of investigation those records would reveal, but there is some speculation that the Section 215 records are related to cell phone geolocation data. EFF's lawyer in charge of the case says if that is true, such data is probably being gathered on a "massive" scale.

Later that year, EFF filed a lawsuit [Complaint, PDF] insisting that some of those documents should be publicly disclosed. The government had stonewalled EFF's Freedom of Information Act request, so now the group wanted a federal judge to enforce its request.

Department of Justice lawyers said the FOIA couldn't be complied with, because it would reveal classified information about a "sensitive collection program."

The “list itself is classified”

In January, the government filed a declaration [PDF] signed by Mark Bradley, the FOIA director of DOJ's National Security Division, explaining what records would be responsive to EFF's request. The descriptions of the documents are extremely basic. For instance, Bradley explains that there are 200 relevant documents dated from May 2006 to Sept. 2011 that were provided to a key House intelligence committee, and that they total 799 pages. It goes on in that fashion.

At today's hearing in Oakland federal court, US District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers suggested that the document wasn't going to be sufficient.

"Why can't I have a basic categorization of what the documents are?" asked Gonzalez Rogers.

"That list itself is classified," responded Steven Bressler, the DOJ attorney present for the hearing.

"Are you suggesting the number of pages of each document is classified?" asked the judge. "What's been provided is: '200 documents consisting of 799 pages.' That doesn't tell me anything. It doesn't tell the public anything. It was never explained to me how something as basic as a list with page numbers could, in any way, shape, or form, be contrary to the interests of the government."

"Mr. Bradley has sworn, under penalty of perjury, that to say more would tend to reveal classified information," said Bressler. "A wealth of information is available for in camera review." Information like page numbers and timing of documents "may be put together by targets of investigation, or adversaries of the United States," he said.

"What the defendant [DOJ] is doing isn't a national security concern," said Mark Rumold, the EFF lawyer arguing to release the documents. "It's a litigation tactic, used since the beginning of FOIA, to make it impossible for FOIA to challenge the government. The defendant can't even describe why they can't describe the records in more detail."

It's an extremely incremental step, but Gonzalez Rogers seemed to side with EFF today. She said she was inclined to issue an order that would ask for more detail about the documents.

"What I have here is, 'We sent them 200 documents.' That's not good enough," she said.

What happened to the rule of law? Does it only apply to citizens and not the federal government? Where does it find its immunity against the redress of grievances per amendment 1 of the Constitution? What can be done if you are denied that right? Did SCOTUS and every other politician swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against enemy's foreign and domestic?

These are just a few questions I think of when reading the above article. Obviously the governments response is "national security". I am of the opinion it is their governmental authority that is really at question here, not our safety.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
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Bump for the docile society.

Frank: Oh, I get, and I am offended. Not because I've got a problem with bitter, predictable, whiny, millionaire disk jockeys complaining about celebrities or how tough their life is, while I live in an apartment with paper-thin walls next to a couple of Neanderthals who, instead of a baby, decided to give birth to some kind of nocturnal civil defense air-raid siren that goes off every fuckin' night like it's Pearl Harbor. I'm not offended that they act like it's my responsibility to protect their rights to pick on the weak like pack animals, or that we're supposed to support their freedom of speech when they don't give a fuck about yours or mine.
Office Worker: So, you're against free speech now? That's in the Bill of Rights, man.
Frank: I would defend their freedom of speech if I thought it was in jeopardy. I would defend their freedom of speech to tell uninspired, bigoted, blowjob, gay-bashing, racist and rape jokes all under the guise of being edgy, but that's not the edge. That's what sells. They couldn't possibly pander any harder or be more commercially mainstream, because this is the "Oh no, you didn't say that!" generation, where a shocking comment has more weight than the truth. No one has any shame anymore, and we're supposed to celebrate it. I saw a woman throw a used tampon at another woman last night on network television, a network that bills itself as "Today's Woman's Channel". Kids beat each other blind and post it on Youtube. I mean, do you remember when eating rats and maggots on Survivor was shocking? It all seems so quaint now. I'm sure the girls from "2 Girls 1 Cup" are gonna have their own dating show on VH-1 any day now. I man, why have a civilization anymore if we no longer are interested in being civilized?
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
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Yeah, I see three Democratic Senators have concerns about this and the EFF, a liberal organization filing a lawsuit.
Where are all of the great right wing Patriots on this? Silent. Who pushed through this so-called Patriot Act? SHhhhhhhh.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
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Yeah, I see three Democratic Senators have concerns about this and the EFF, a liberal organization filing a lawsuit.
Where are all of the great right wing Patriots on this? Silent. Who pushed through this so-called Patriot Act? SHhhhhhhh.

Which president is continuing the secrecy? Shhhhhhh.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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link



What happened to the rule of law? Does it only apply to citizens and not the federal government? Where does it find its immunity against the redress of grievances per amendment 1 of the Constitution? What can be done if you are denied that right? Did SCOTUS and every other politician swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against enemy's foreign and domestic?

These are just a few questions I think of when reading the above article. Obviously the governments response is "national security". I am of the opinion it is their governmental authority that is really at question here, not our safety.

Sadly the rule of law in the US is reserved for the sheeple. The .gov and their elite handlers not only get to write the laws but when they still break black letter law they usually get away completely and occasionally pay a fine that is a few percent of the illegally made profits.

We should be pissed, we should be demanding redress, we should be demanding that the rule of law be applied and enforced equally but most of us couldn't give half a shit. As long as American Idol comes on they just don't care. Hell, you'll have people arguing that its no big deal that the .gov acquires this data as long as "you have nothing to hide".

It seems that most Americans have lost their love of freedom.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Yeah, I see three Democratic Senators have concerns about this and the EFF, a liberal organization filing a lawsuit.
Where are all of the great right wing Patriots on this? Silent. Who pushed through this so-called Patriot Act? SHhhhhhhh.

Great, partisan bullshit in the first few replies......


Hate to break it to you but both parties have been taking away our freedom for quite a while. If you think there is any measurable difference between the two when it comes to preserving or protecting our liberties you are simply to partisan to see the truth right in front of you.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Where are all of the Republican Patriots trying to repeal the Patriot Act?
Ever seen a President voluntarily give up power? I didn't think so.

If your side is better than where are all of the Democrat patriots trying to repeal it?

As far as the President voluntarily giving up power, just because no one else has ever done the right thing doesn't make it right to do the wrong thing. Frankly we have seen this Administration take fucked up Bush admin policies and expand upon them. Unfortunately a ton of the left that was with me in condemning the Bush admin have now gone silent while those silent when the Bush admin was doing it now all of a sudden give a shit.

If your two asshole sides would actually be consistent on the subject instead of only being outraged when the other party is doing it we just might actually make some headway. Naw, scoring political points is WAY more important than little shit like liberties and freedom. See your posts as an example of what I am talking about.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
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Great, partisan bullshit in the first few replies......


Hate to break it to you but both parties have been taking away our freedom for quite a while. If you think there is any measurable difference between the two when it comes to preserving or protecting our liberties you are simply to partisan to see the truth right in front of you.

Ok, if there is no measurable difference between the parties, then why are only Democrats concerned about this , and the only only organization suing about it is a liberal one?
Where are the right wing legal organizations and the Koch brothers on this?
I would say there is a huge difference between the parties on this.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Ok, if there is no measurable difference between the parties, then why are only Democrats concerned about this , and the only only organization suing about it is a liberal one?
Where are the right wing legal organizations and the Koch brothers on this?
I would say there is a huge difference between the parties on this.

Wow, a whole two Democrats are speaking out. Pretty sure Ron and Rand Paul are pretty vocal against the PATRIOT Act, so there's your Republicans to match the whopping two Democrats who are fighting this.

And it's funny that you're claiming the EFF is liberal. If the EFF was liberal by current American interpretation of the word, they'd be pissing their pants and trying to ban 3D printing of firearms parts like the rest of you fruitcakes. I'd consider them a libertarian organization.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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I'd consider them a libertarian organization.

Agreed, they are for the freedom of information regardless of its political ideology. They just want less government intrusion no matter if that is a good or bad thing.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,748
5,908
146
you partisan hacks make me puke. all of you.
This dispicable chunk of legislation passed the house 357 to 66, and although the vast majority of dissent came from democrats, plenty voted for it.
The senate?
98 to 1, with Russ Feingold the only holdout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

So while you continue to piss and moan about us and them crap, this turd gets stronger all the time. It took both parties to get it in there and if it were ever to be repealed ( highly unlikely) it would take both parties to do that too.
So keep up your finger pointing, boys.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
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"although the vast majority of dissent came from democrats, plenty voted for it."
Of course, this was right after 9/11, and Bush had said if you are not with us you are against us. In light of the political situation in this country at that time, anyone opposing these laws would be subject to immediate political attacks. So I will excuse some of them for voting for these laws.
The facts are this law was pushed by the administration and Republicans.
To get these laws changed or removed is going to take Republican leadership, something that is not happening.
You can blame Democrats all you want, but the vast majority of the blame for this falls on Republicans. They need to step up to fix this.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,034
1
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"although the vast majority of dissent came from democrats, plenty voted for it."
Of course, this was right after 9/11, and Bush had said if you are not with us you are against us. In light of the political situation in this country at that time, anyone opposing these laws would be subject to immediate political attacks. So I will excuse some of them for voting for these laws.
The facts are this law was pushed by the administration and Republicans.
To get these laws changed or removed is going to take Republican leadership, something that is not happening.
You can blame Democrats all you want, but the vast majority of the blame for this falls on Republicans. They need to step up to fix this.

Great, so they voted for it to keep their jobs, rather than doing the duty to which they swore when they were elected.

Sounds like they're a real crop of winners there.

No, Congressmen and Senators are supposed to be representing the best interests of their constituents, not their own jobs.

Too bad the majority of US citizens are fucking morons and excuse this kind of behavior.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
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"although the vast majority of dissent came from democrats, plenty voted for it."
Of course, this was right after 9/11, and Bush had said if you are not with us you are against us. In light of the political situation in this country at that time, anyone opposing these laws would be subject to immediate political attacks. So I will excuse some of them for voting for these laws.
The facts are this law was pushed by the administration and Republicans.
To get these laws changed or removed is going to take Republican leadership, something that is not happening.
You can blame Democrats all you want, but the vast majority of the blame for this falls on Republicans. They need to step up to fix this.

There is no innocent party. Guilty is guilty. Drop the fucking soap opera and put on the big boy pants. Liberty of the people is NOT a partisan issue. I bet if you sat down with every representative and asked if they agree with the Bill of Rights line by line they would ALL agree. Why does that not translate into action? Hmmm? Because its supreme government over supreme law, thats why. We need to start holding these officials to their oath! The sooner we get this ball rolling in the opposite direction the better.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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"although the vast majority of dissent came from democrats, plenty voted for it."
Of course, this was right after 9/11, and Bush had said if you are not with us you are against us. In light of the political situation in this country at that time, anyone opposing these laws would be subject to immediate political attacks. So I will excuse some of them for voting for these laws.
The facts are this law was pushed by the administration and Republicans.
To get these laws changed or removed is going to take Republican leadership, something that is not happening.
You can blame Democrats all you want, but the vast majority of the blame for this falls on Republicans. They need to step up to fix this.

You "forget" that Patriot Act Mark II was passed under Obama's watch. Please stop "forgetting" it.

updated 5/27/2011 11:24:45 AM ET

Minutes before a midnight deadline, President Barack Obama signed into law a four-year extension of post-Sept. 11 powers to search records and conduct roving wiretaps in pursuit of terrorists.
"It's an important tool for us to continue dealing with an ongoing terrorist threat," Obama said Friday after a meeting with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
With Obama in France, the White House said the president used an autopen machine that holds a pen and signs his actual signature. It is only used with proper authorization of the president.


Congress bumped up against the deadline mainly because of the stubborn resistance from a single senator, Republican freshman Rand Paul of Kentucky, who saw the terrorist-hunting powers as an abuse of privacy rights.
Paul held up the final vote for several days while he demanded a chance to change the bill to diminish the government's ability to monitor individual actions.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43180202/ns/us_news-security/t/obama-europe-signs-patriot-act-extension/
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
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Operating from his Flying Crown Ranch in Arizona!!
Can Sky stop the evil enactment of the Patriot Act?
Tune in next week!




Sorry, it just triggered a memory
 
D

Deleted member 4644

These programs need to be public knowledge. Maybe some of them should be allowed. But they need to be public.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
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You "forget" that Patriot Act Mark II was passed under Obama's watch. Please stop "forgetting" it.


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43180202/ns/us_news-security/t/obama-europe-signs-patriot-act-extension/
Thanks for making my point.
Did you notice the vote in congress to reauthorize the Patriot Act?
"On their second try, House Republicans passed an extension to several provisions of the Patriot Act on Monday night, after an embarrassing flub last week.

By a vote of 275 to 144, the GOP sent the bill to the Senate, a week after it first failed in an embarrassing vote for House Republicans.

There were still 27 Republican no-votes and 65 Democratic yes votes."

In other words,
Republicans voted 210-Yes to 27-No Democrats voted 65-Yes to 117-No

In fact Democrats voted against this bill and against their president, because some of them have some principles left

You'll notice almost all of the scumbag Republicans voted for this, including most of the freedom loving tea baggers.
Can you now see clearly that there is a difference between the parties?
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush
/0211/Try_again_Patriot_Act_extension_passes_House.html
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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Thanks for making my point.
Did you notice the vote in congress to reauthorize the Patriot Act?

Did you notice who signed it into law? I will give you two tries to name the President (and his political party) who, in 2011, signed it into law.

Lets see if you are up to the challenge.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
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Did you notice who signed it into law? I will give you two tries to name the President (and his political party) who, in 2011, signed it into law.

Lets see if you are up to the challenge.

Did you notice that president's can't magically create laws and that the margins in the house are close enough considering those that did not vote that any veto would have undoubtedly been overturned?

The modern day concept of laying the blame of laws on the president is pretty absurd. If you read a lot of the founding father's works they were quite against the president using a veto power unless it was a dire matter to protect the constitution. In the case of the Patriot ACT I believe it is such a case, but still the brunt of responsibility lies at the feet of our legislators not our presidents.