hehe, sorry EngineNr9, but Denmark still stands tall after having had 'pure' democracy for quite a while now.
<< Trust me, I don't just pick out individuals just because they voted for Bush or happen to have conservative ideals >>
GOOD GAWWWWWWD AMIGHTY!! And people thought Clinton and Gore could tell big lies.
<< morally challenged, stupid or clueless >>
I see your therapy is progressing nicely. Awareness of self is always the first step toward a new beginning.
ride525
Since the 7 of 9 said you must have a standard to hand count the Florida ballots, would you please tell us what standard you would propose to use when making a hand recount? Would you agree that the outcome might change depending on which standard you use? Would you also agree that recounts MIGHT not be repeatable especially if they were done by hand? What standard deviation would you expect when hand counting 6 Million ballots?
Since the 7 of 9 said you must have a standard to hand count the Florida ballots, would you please tell us what standard you would propose to use when making a hand recount? Would you agree that the outcome might change depending on which standard you use? Would you also agree that recounts MIGHT not be repeatable especially if they were done by hand? What standard deviation would you expect when hand counting 6 Million ballots?
Wasn't it a newspaper that was going to recount the ballots in Florida. If true, I can guarantee that Gore will win. What better way to sell a lot of newspapers then have a story like that.
Danbashee
"The simple fact is that even though Bush won the election, more people in the US voted for Gore than Bush & more people in Florida went to the polls intending to vote for Gore not Bush."
That is not a simple fact, you do NOT know that Gore got more votes or that more people intended to vote for him. Nice spin, but absolutely no facts to back up your statements.
Danbashee
"The simple fact is that even though Bush won the election, more people in the US voted for Gore than Bush & more people in Florida went to the polls intending to vote for Gore not Bush."
That is not a simple fact, you do NOT know that Gore got more votes or that more people intended to vote for him. Nice spin, but absolutely no facts to back up your statements.
It's all a moot point now, but if the SCOFLA got the case back, the standard should have been set by the state's chief elections officer...SoS Harris. She could've said, "The standard for a valid vote is when the chad is COMPLETELY PUNCHED OUT. That is the clear intent of the voter and also means they followed the instructions." That's what Justice O'Conner said too.
Think the Goristas would've accepted anything less than a make-it-up-as-necessary "standard"? Didn't think so.
ALL votes were counted! TWICE! People who keep saying they weren't are either liars or dupes. The MYTH of Gore getting more votes doesn't help anyone except those clinging to a fantasy world were lollypops grow on trees and there are no Republicans.
Think the Goristas would've accepted anything less than a make-it-up-as-necessary "standard"? Didn't think so.
ALL votes were counted! TWICE! People who keep saying they weren't are either liars or dupes. The MYTH of Gore getting more votes doesn't help anyone except those clinging to a fantasy world were lollypops grow on trees and there are no Republicans.
Def-
There is no wya in HELL that the FL SC would have allowed the SoS to actually do her LAWFUL DUTY! it would not have been FAIR to all the people who plain did NOT follow the instructions.
There is no wya in HELL that the FL SC would have allowed the SoS to actually do her LAWFUL DUTY! it would not have been FAIR to all the people who plain did NOT follow the instructions.
"<< well i'm still wondering why it isn't the popular vote that wins....makes no sense to me why it shouldn't be. >>
It would mean a candidate would just bribe poor inner city folks with the nations money and ignore everyone else. Actually that is pretty much how democrats get into office now.
The follow people would be completely shutout of the election of the President:
Farmers
country people
suburban people
The white house would be run by New York city, chicago, LA, and a few other big cities.
Your a fuken idiot Jacobnero, the vast majority of Americans are middle class suburbanites, not ghetto kids on welfare. BTW farmers receive on average a lot more welfare than poor inner city folks.
It seems I know more about the US than you do & I'm Australian. You should get out a bit more & walk down your suburban street & stop watching 'cops' & NYPD.
I'm aware there are alot of middle class suburbanites, I happen to be one of them but democrats pander to the city [bribe?] to stay in power. This were Al Gore got most of his votes, the east and west coast, while Bush recieved most of his from the middle states. They promote themselves as robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. The only problem is most government programs don't work well or at all. They trap people in poverty because there is no real motivation to do better. The government is a monoply, it doesn't really matter how well they teach kids there is no where else to go. Unless you have money and can afford private education. Since the majority can't afford private education there stuck with a inferior education that affects them the rest of there life. And the cycle continues. The democrats don't really care they just want to stay in office. They keep promising them that more money will fix this bad system but all the jet fuel in world won't make my car fly and more money won't fix a bad school system.
It would mean a candidate would just bribe poor inner city folks with the nations money and ignore everyone else. Actually that is pretty much how democrats get into office now.
The follow people would be completely shutout of the election of the President:
Farmers
country people
suburban people
The white house would be run by New York city, chicago, LA, and a few other big cities.
Your a fuken idiot Jacobnero, the vast majority of Americans are middle class suburbanites, not ghetto kids on welfare. BTW farmers receive on average a lot more welfare than poor inner city folks.
It seems I know more about the US than you do & I'm Australian. You should get out a bit more & walk down your suburban street & stop watching 'cops' & NYPD.
I'm aware there are alot of middle class suburbanites, I happen to be one of them but democrats pander to the city [bribe?] to stay in power. This were Al Gore got most of his votes, the east and west coast, while Bush recieved most of his from the middle states. They promote themselves as robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. The only problem is most government programs don't work well or at all. They trap people in poverty because there is no real motivation to do better. The government is a monoply, it doesn't really matter how well they teach kids there is no where else to go. Unless you have money and can afford private education. Since the majority can't afford private education there stuck with a inferior education that affects them the rest of there life. And the cycle continues. The democrats don't really care they just want to stay in office. They keep promising them that more money will fix this bad system but all the jet fuel in world won't make my car fly and more money won't fix a bad school system.
There you go again, Jacobnero spoutingh stuff you've heard without analysing it.
The simple fact is once selectivity & socio-economic backgrounds are factored in privates schools perform no better on average (& mostly worse) than public schools.
Also the vast majority of democrat voters are also middleclass suburbanites.
BTW, why would a candidate just bribe poor inner city folks, when over 90% of them don't bother voting.
Yes that's right, in the US voter participation rates decrease as incomes decrease. That's why the Democrats pander to the middleclass (Clinton knew he didn't have to worry about losing votes when he introduces a sunset clause on welfare payments, as its rare to find someone on welfare who bothers voting) & the Rebublicans pander to the wealthy. Why do you think that Rebublicans always win when there's a low turnout? its because their constituency always votes. & why do you think that democrats always win when there's a high turnout? Its because some of those people who useally don't bother voting actually voted & they are more likely to have average or below average incomes & thus vote democrat.
BTW, you should stop taking all the political rhetoric you hear as gospel, because the simple fact is that both the Democrats & the Republicans are centralist parties, they have to be to have any chance to get into office. The democrats are (by international standards) a centralist party while the republican party in a far right party with centre right policies. In other words the factions inside the republican party are far right (for example they anti-abortion) but they are pragmatic enough to keep the party policies centre-right (consequently their anti abortion ideas are kept on the back burner & things are left as they are). That is why when Michael Moore listed & compared all the policies of both Bush & Gore, over 90% of them were virtually the same. You only have to compare their responces in the Slashdot Interveiws to realise that. Really that debate where they turned up dress exactly the same as each other was quite telling.
With the military ballots counted it's actually quite likely that Bush would have won Florida anyway.
Actually EngineNr9 that Black county where 1 in 3 votes was invalidated, cancels out the military ballots by a factor of 5 or something.
<< Danbashee
"The simple fact is that even though Bush won the election, more people in the US voted for Gore than Bush & more people in Florida went to the polls intending to vote for Gore not Bush."
That is not a simple fact, you do NOT know that Gore got more votes or that more people intended to vote for him. Nice spin, but absolutely no facts to back up your statements. >>
Well etech seeing as that Black county where 1 in 3 votes was invalidated, cancels out the military votes by a factor of 5 or something (afterall at least 8 out of 9 black votes go to the democrats). its pretty obvious that more voters in Florida intended voting for Gore than Bush. Especially when one takes into account the Republican run Forida police depts putting up road blocks to obviously to deter black voters; those black polling booths that closed early while many people were still queued up; the pregnant Chads; the butterfly confusion (just compare Buchanan's votes in those counties with the rest of the counties), & the re-gain rates in the re-counts.
The simple fact is once selectivity & socio-economic backgrounds are factored in privates schools perform no better on average (& mostly worse) than public schools.
Also the vast majority of democrat voters are also middleclass suburbanites.
BTW, why would a candidate just bribe poor inner city folks, when over 90% of them don't bother voting.
Yes that's right, in the US voter participation rates decrease as incomes decrease. That's why the Democrats pander to the middleclass (Clinton knew he didn't have to worry about losing votes when he introduces a sunset clause on welfare payments, as its rare to find someone on welfare who bothers voting) & the Rebublicans pander to the wealthy. Why do you think that Rebublicans always win when there's a low turnout? its because their constituency always votes. & why do you think that democrats always win when there's a high turnout? Its because some of those people who useally don't bother voting actually voted & they are more likely to have average or below average incomes & thus vote democrat.
BTW, you should stop taking all the political rhetoric you hear as gospel, because the simple fact is that both the Democrats & the Republicans are centralist parties, they have to be to have any chance to get into office. The democrats are (by international standards) a centralist party while the republican party in a far right party with centre right policies. In other words the factions inside the republican party are far right (for example they anti-abortion) but they are pragmatic enough to keep the party policies centre-right (consequently their anti abortion ideas are kept on the back burner & things are left as they are). That is why when Michael Moore listed & compared all the policies of both Bush & Gore, over 90% of them were virtually the same. You only have to compare their responces in the Slashdot Interveiws to realise that. Really that debate where they turned up dress exactly the same as each other was quite telling.
With the military ballots counted it's actually quite likely that Bush would have won Florida anyway.
Actually EngineNr9 that Black county where 1 in 3 votes was invalidated, cancels out the military ballots by a factor of 5 or something.
<< Danbashee
"The simple fact is that even though Bush won the election, more people in the US voted for Gore than Bush & more people in Florida went to the polls intending to vote for Gore not Bush."
That is not a simple fact, you do NOT know that Gore got more votes or that more people intended to vote for him. Nice spin, but absolutely no facts to back up your statements. >>
Well etech seeing as that Black county where 1 in 3 votes was invalidated, cancels out the military votes by a factor of 5 or something (afterall at least 8 out of 9 black votes go to the democrats). its pretty obvious that more voters in Florida intended voting for Gore than Bush. Especially when one takes into account the Republican run Forida police depts putting up road blocks to obviously to deter black voters; those black polling booths that closed early while many people were still queued up; the pregnant Chads; the butterfly confusion (just compare Buchanan's votes in those counties with the rest of the counties), & the re-gain rates in the re-counts.
<< Especially when one takes into account the Republican run Forida police depts putting up road blocks to obviously to deter black voters >>
What a vacuum there must be between your ears.
Well it was on the news, they even showed all these people abusing the election officials for closing the booth because they couldn't get their in time as they were held up by the police road blocks.
<< There you go again, Jacobnero spouting stuff you've heard without analysing it. >>
I've analyzed it as much as possible and come to the conclusion that public education doesn't work and never will.
<< BTW, you should stop taking all the political rhetoric you hear as gospel, because the simple fact is that both the Democrats & the Republicans are centralist parties, they have to be to have any chance to get into office. >>
Well your sorta of right, clinton campaigned in 92 as a new democrat, got into office and showed his true liberal colors with socialized medicine and gays in the military. Then got such a backlash in 94 when the GOP took over congress that he became a moderate democrat basically selling his liberal soul for a second term.
<< In other words the factions inside the republican party are far right (for example they anti-abortion) but they are pragmatic enough to keep the party policies centre-right (consequently their anti abortion ideas are kept on the back burner & things are left as they are). >>
Eventually roe v wade will be overturned...as it says in the constitution we all have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
JacobNero:
The ONLY issue you and I agree on is abortion, but I must take issue with your view that Roe v. Wade will be overturned any time within the next two generations. Here's why. Abortion is THE hot button, polarizing issue in the country. Any President who packs the court with anti-abortion ideologues will destroy the Republican Party. Many Republicans are in FAVOR of abortion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if 30-40% have that view. So, politically it would be suicide to actually support anti-abortion judges, while it IS politically astute for Republicans to be opposed to abortion because they pick up the support of the Right Wing Christians without actually having to do anything about abortion. Thus, the Republicans have built a coalition on the delusional beliefs of their Right Wing Christian supporters.
When my friends ask me how I can support Gore inasmuch he is in favor of a woman's "choice" to kill her baby, I say I'd rather win that battle mano a mano, i.e. in the hearts and minds of individuals, than cram it down the throats of the majority with a Supreme Court decision. Also, although Gore gets an F on the abortion issue, he gets Bs and Cs on most of the other issues, like gun control, the environment, the death penalty, social security, etc. Bush gets an F on all of those issues, particularly the death penalty which I firmly oppose.
Most states now have laws which guarantee a woman's "choice" to kill her baby. We aren't going to change many state laws, even if the Supreme Court were to be packed with a majority ready to overturn Roe v. Wade. Anyway, a case would have to work its way up to that court, and as we've seen in this election, they have 50 ways to please or leave their lover.
Right Wing Christians may be pleased that the Supremes have selected their candidate, but don't expect ANY substantial changes in abortion policy.
I hope you have many other very sound reasons for voting for Bush, but I can't imagine any.
The ONLY issue you and I agree on is abortion, but I must take issue with your view that Roe v. Wade will be overturned any time within the next two generations. Here's why. Abortion is THE hot button, polarizing issue in the country. Any President who packs the court with anti-abortion ideologues will destroy the Republican Party. Many Republicans are in FAVOR of abortion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if 30-40% have that view. So, politically it would be suicide to actually support anti-abortion judges, while it IS politically astute for Republicans to be opposed to abortion because they pick up the support of the Right Wing Christians without actually having to do anything about abortion. Thus, the Republicans have built a coalition on the delusional beliefs of their Right Wing Christian supporters.
When my friends ask me how I can support Gore inasmuch he is in favor of a woman's "choice" to kill her baby, I say I'd rather win that battle mano a mano, i.e. in the hearts and minds of individuals, than cram it down the throats of the majority with a Supreme Court decision. Also, although Gore gets an F on the abortion issue, he gets Bs and Cs on most of the other issues, like gun control, the environment, the death penalty, social security, etc. Bush gets an F on all of those issues, particularly the death penalty which I firmly oppose.
Most states now have laws which guarantee a woman's "choice" to kill her baby. We aren't going to change many state laws, even if the Supreme Court were to be packed with a majority ready to overturn Roe v. Wade. Anyway, a case would have to work its way up to that court, and as we've seen in this election, they have 50 ways to please or leave their lover.
Right Wing Christians may be pleased that the Supremes have selected their candidate, but don't expect ANY substantial changes in abortion policy.
I hope you have many other very sound reasons for voting for Bush, but I can't imagine any.
I agree here. I think if the Republicans appoint justices who in turn overturn Roe v. Wade, they will lose the presidency until there are enough Democratic appointed justices to reinstate it. Not that I care much about the issue, but I think that's what the political climate is nowadays.
I've analyzed it as much as possible and come to the conclusion that public education doesn't work and never will.
Hmm.... is that why most of the world, which has public education, is kicking US' butt all over the place when it comes to achievement scores? Perhaps if US parents weren't such donkeys toward folks in authority (i.e. teachers) and take some responisbility for their kids immature behavior things might look a little brighter.
Hmm.... is that why most of the world, which has public education, is kicking US' butt all over the place when it comes to achievement scores? Perhaps if US parents weren't such donkeys toward folks in authority (i.e. teachers) and take some responisbility for their kids immature behavior things might look a little brighter.
I think Republicans should do the right thing and put pro-life judges on the Supreme Court. I mean who died and put the liberals in charge. There are some Republicans who ask people to accept the unacceptable because it's the easy thing to do. I say these Republicans need to get a backbone.
If Bush were to put pro-life judges and he lost the 2004 election so be it. I would respect him for having the balls for doing the right thing.
Truthfully people worry to much about the reactions of others instead of doing what is right.
If Bush were to put pro-life judges and he lost the 2004 election so be it. I would respect him for having the balls for doing the right thing.
Truthfully people worry to much about the reactions of others instead of doing what is right.
I've analyzed it as much as possible and come to the conclusion that public education doesn't work and never will.
Hmm.... is that why most of the world, which has public education, is kicking US' butt all over the place when it comes to achievement scores? Perhaps if US parents weren't such donkeys toward folks in authority (i.e. teachers) and take some responisbility for their kids immature behavior things might look a little brighter.
Yes but for some reason these countries still can't match the US economy. In Japan there suppose to have such a superior school system and yet there economy has gone through a huge recession for ten years. If they are so smart why aren't they doing better then us ? I mean the US has a bunch of idiots from crappy public schools. Truthfully I find this to be nothing more than an illusion.
Hmm.... is that why most of the world, which has public education, is kicking US' butt all over the place when it comes to achievement scores? Perhaps if US parents weren't such donkeys toward folks in authority (i.e. teachers) and take some responisbility for their kids immature behavior things might look a little brighter.
Yes but for some reason these countries still can't match the US economy. In Japan there suppose to have such a superior school system and yet there economy has gone through a huge recession for ten years. If they are so smart why aren't they doing better then us ? I mean the US has a bunch of idiots from crappy public schools. Truthfully I find this to be nothing more than an illusion.
JacobNero:
Your Republicans can't do anything unless they get elected, and keep getting elected. Building a coalition and consensus is what politics is all about. Of course it's a dirty business. Why do you think Russ loves it so much?
Anyway, don't espect Bush to take a bullet for the Right Wing of his party. He already distanced himself from the House Republicans early in the campaign, and will probably try to keep them at arm's length for 4 years so he can save his hide for a possible re-up.
Your Republicans can't do anything unless they get elected, and keep getting elected. Building a coalition and consensus is what politics is all about. Of course it's a dirty business. Why do you think Russ loves it so much?
Anyway, don't espect Bush to take a bullet for the Right Wing of his party. He already distanced himself from the House Republicans early in the campaign, and will probably try to keep them at arm's length for 4 years so he can save his hide for a possible re-up.
JacobNero:
No, RMJ is right, we are getting our educational butt kicked, but we have compensating other strengths, like size and diversity which make us less vulnerable to the viscissitudes of markets. (But we are STILL vulnerable.) His point is we can do a lot better and many parents aren't doing the right thing by their children. Listen to him. This guy is very smart and seldom wrong, in my view.
No, RMJ is right, we are getting our educational butt kicked, but we have compensating other strengths, like size and diversity which make us less vulnerable to the viscissitudes of markets. (But we are STILL vulnerable.) His point is we can do a lot better and many parents aren't doing the right thing by their children. Listen to him. This guy is very smart and seldom wrong, in my view.
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