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Google. Really? Another one?

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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weeber

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
431
2
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Yeah, this kind of stuff has always bothered me about Google. Whether it it be Hangouts, Allo, etc. They always take half-measure attempts at something, get people on board, then give up and move on to the next half measure attempt. My brother is on iPhone, but the rest of my family is on Android. I actually talked my brother into using Allo with the family so that he can share his pictures/videos with us without MMS downgrading everything to a pixelated hot mess. I still think Hangouts was great when it could do SMS along with Hangout messages (similar to iMessage); I still don't know why Google gave up on that.

I guess Allo is not going anywhere for the time being, so my family will keep using it. But if I need to switch to something else, we'll probably just go whatsapp, like the rest of the world. If only Apple would get on board with something that iMessage would cross-platform with. That would really clarify things. Heck, if they made iMessage available on Android, I'd probably jump on it in an instant.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17252486/google-android-messages-chat-rcs-anil-sabharwal-imessage-texting

What is this obsession with chat apps at Google?
And why SMS? You cant "fix" SMS, its designed to be shitty, thats what the first 'S' stands for.
If you want a rich messenger thats cross platform and fairly secure with a large install base just use whatsapp.
It's not Google's obsession. I blame backwards American and their texting religion (I'm sure the carriers share the blame here as well). Apple got the hook on early with iMessage, and Google has been making several failed attempts to compete. It's actually infuriating (and sad, really).
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
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It's not Google's obsession.
It is. How many messengers have they launched? And now they are throwing resources at keeping sms alive. Why?

Android doesn't need a native messenger. Let people use what works for them.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
14,535
4,616
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If you want a rich messenger thats cross platform and fairly secure with a large install base just use whatsapp.
Isn't Whatsapp owned by FB? If so, secure in which sense?

What came before Hangouts? I can't remember, though if I had to bet, it looked similar enough to Hangouts or Messages...
 

tsupersonic

Senior member
Nov 11, 2013
867
21
81
Google needs a vision for a single messaging/video that works cross platform. They have all these silos working on all these different messaging apps, and none of them are talking to each other. What the hell is Google's management doing?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
126
Google needs a vision for a single messaging/video that works cross platform. They have all these silos working on all these different messaging apps, and none of them are talking to each other. What the hell is Google's management doing?
Why does Google even need to have a messenger?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
126
Colour me sceptical in that FB isn't monetising it in some way detrimental to end users' privacy.
As long as my messages are encrypted I'm happy.
I mean people are talking about using SMS which is totally open for anyone to read.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
It is. How many messengers have they launched? And now they are throwing resources at keeping sms alive. Why?

Android doesn't need a native messenger. Let people use what works for them.
I already answered your question in my first reply. They're doing it to compete with iMessage, because American are still using SMS and won't let it die.

Google Talk was great, and Hangouts isn't that bad (I think they ended up targeting it for business now), but Google wants iMessage users who don't care about either of those and just want the magic 'SMS integration' on their messaging program. If you don't believe me, go back and search almost any article on leading Android sites for the past 5 years regarding Hangouts, Allo, etc. You'll see that 90% of the comments are asking for 'SMS integration'. These people really love their SMS.

I agree with you that Google doesn't need a messenger, but iMessage is a real thorn on their side because it's a real incentive for people to convert to iPhone.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
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I already answered your question in my first reply. They're doing it to compete with iMessage, because American are still using SMS and won't let it die.

Google Talk was great, and Hangouts isn't that bad (I think they ended up targeting it for business now), but Google wants iMessage users who don't care about either of those and just want the magic 'SMS integration' on their messaging program. If you don't believe me, go back and search almost any article on leading Android sites for the past 5 years regarding Hangouts, Allo, etc. You'll see that 90% of the comments are asking for 'SMS integration'. These people really love their SMS.

I agree with you that Google doesn't need a messenger, but iMessage is a real thorn on their side because it's a real incentive for people to convert to iPhone.
Thing is that whatsapp is always going to be better than anything that Google brings out because it is encrypted. If Google continues to chase SMS then whatever it makes is going to be flawed because SMS is flawed.

The whole iMessage thing is way overblown. You're all using smartphones yes? Then you have data? Then you really should be moving off SMS.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
Thing is that whatsapp is always going to be better than anything that Google brings out because it is encrypted. If Google continues to chase SMS then whatever it makes is going to be flawed because SMS is flawed.
Absolutely no disagreement from me on that!

The whole iMessage thing is way overblown. You're all using smartphones yes? Then you have data? Then you really should be moving off SMS.
I also agree with most of that, but 'should' means absolutely nothing to these people. And about it being overblown, I know it doesn't make sense to you, but how many of your contacts are 13-23 years old living in the US? My contacts are about 80% non-US (and their ages are twice that) so I have zero problem with this. 95% of my messaging needs are done through Whatsapp and Telegram. The other 5% is work related, two-factor authentication, short codes, etc. But my kid uses SMS as primary means of messaging because that's what his friends use.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
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I also agree with most of that, but 'should' means absolutely nothing to these people. And about it being overblown, I know it doesn't make sense to you, but how many of your contacts are 13-23 years old living in the US? My contacts are about 80% non-US (and their ages are twice that) so I have zero problem with this. 95% of my messaging needs are done through Whatsapp and Telegram. The other 5% is work related, two-factor authentication, short codes, etc. But my kid uses SMS as primary means of messaging because that's what his friends use.


I'm still not seeing a problem that Google has to fix there.
Android has the option of using a variety of rich messaging apps as its native messenger. To look at iMessage which is hobbled by SMS and go "We should do that!" seems perverse!
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91

I'm still not seeing a problem that Google has to fix there.
Android has the option of using a variety of rich messaging apps as its native messenger. To look at iMessage which is hobbled by SMS and go "We should do that!" seems perverse!
I really don't know how else I'm going to explain it. The people want SMS integration, and Google tried to create all kinds of different messaging app without SMS and nobody is using them (but instead always whining because this and that app doesn't have SMS integration). So Google finally gave up and started looking into SMS. They don't care that it's flawed, they just want the app to be used, so they look into what people want (though they'll probably fail again).
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
126
I really don't know how else I'm going to explain it. The people want SMS integration, and Google tried to create all kinds of different messaging app without SMS and nobody is using them (but instead always whining because this and that app doesn't have SMS integration). So Google finally gave up and started looking into SMS. They don't care that it's flawed, they just want the app to be used, so they look into what people want (though they'll probably fail again).
People aren't using Googles messenger apps because they are already using apps that do everything they need.

WhatsApp, Facebook messenger and the others have already got the market sown up. SMS integration isn't a magic bullet to success any more.

Your phone already does SMS if you're in some horrible situation where you have to use it.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
People aren't using Googles messenger apps because they are already using apps that do everything they need.

WhatsApp, Facebook messenger and the others have already got the market sown up. SMS integration isn't a magic bullet to success any more.

Your phone already does SMS if you're in some horrible situation where you have to use it.
Oh boy. I'm not saying it will be successful or even if it's a good strategy by Google. You asked why Google is doing this and I'm trying to explain to you that this is a desperation move by Google.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
126
Oh boy. I'm not saying it will be successful or even if it's a good strategy by Google. You asked why Google is doing this and I'm trying to explain to you that this is a desperation move by Google.
I'm just confused as to why Google needs a desperation move. It's not like they are low on users.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,207
216
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This isn't another chat app like the ones before. They've been working on this for a while now with the carriers, it's the evolution of SMS. I do wish they would just do their own iMessage.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,134
135
106
Like WhatsApp?
Like you think that's "secure". Facebook owns it, and Facebook has the keys to the door. You couldn't pay me to install WhatsApp.

Edit: Non-Americans don't use SMS because it's usually charged on a per-message basis - like the US carriers did way back in the dark ages of cellular (2000-2007~). Now it's included with no cost in even the most cheapest prepaid plan you can get. It also works with literally every phone in existence, and every mobile number in existence can send or receive an SMS. US people use it because we were using it before chat apps existed and it's a basic, built-in thing. Now, if Android had an interoperable chat app like iMessage since the beginning (which I very seriously doubt could've worked anyway, because the US carriers are notoriously difficult to have work together) maybe we wouldn't be in this mess, but I still doubt it.

iMessage only succeeded because Apple basically dictates terms to carriers.
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
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Like you think that's "secure". Facebook owns it, and Facebook has the keys to the door. You couldn't pay me to install WhatsApp.

Edit: Non-Americans don't use SMS because it's usually charged on a per-message basis - like the US carriers did way back in the dark ages of cellular (2000-2007~). Now it's included with no cost in even the most cheapest prepaid plan you can get. It also works with literally every phone in existence, and every mobile number in existence can send or receive an SMS. US people use it because we were using it before chat apps existed and it's a basic, built-in thing. Now, if Android had an interoperable chat app like iMessage since the beginning (which I very seriously doubt could've worked anyway, because the US carriers are notoriously difficult to have work together) maybe we wouldn't be in this mess, but I still doubt it.

iMessage only succeeded because Apple basically dictates terms to carriers.
You cant say that you dont use Whatapp because you think that it's not secure and in the same post say that you use SMS!

I have, and everyone in my household has, unlimited SMSs. No one uses them, and one of those people is a teenager. Unlimited SMS isnt unusual here if you have a contract.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,880
4,926
126
WhatsApp doesn't function like iMessage though, where it falls back on SMS automatically.
Good! Having an encrypted messenger suddenly and randomly just send messages in plain text is a bad thing! It's not like you cant send an sms if you absolutely have to but at least you'll chose to do so and know not to put anything you dont mind getting intercepted in there.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
I don't understand the focus on SMS here. I'm sure I must be missing something.

The article clearly states (heck, right in the byline) that Google is working on a successor to SMS, and getting carriers on board with it even. Even a standard (Chat) that Google won't own, that everyone could use, which is exactly what messaging should be. Nothing at all about just another chat app using SMS.

Of course, as I say maybe I missed something. Because what's actually in the article sounds like a damn good idea to me. It'd be Apple standing alone like d-bags if they chose to keep shoving a proprietary messenger system on their devices and not a standard everyone else uses.

Exactly what I've never liked about the whole iMess thing. What actual good is a messenger that the creator hordes and doesn't allow to be a standard so that most of its features don't work on 90% of devices out there?

If what the article says is really what Google is up to, then good for them. Creating closed messaging platforms is stupid. Creating something that'd stick a fork in SMS (AND iMess and everything else that doesn't play well with everything else because proprietary corporate nonsense) then more power to them.
 

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