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Google Fights Back

poofyhairguy

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Looks like Google is planning on getting its money's worth out of Motorola. First it is going after MS's favorite pet project of the last decade:

Motorola Mobility Holdings Inc. (MMI) won a U.S. International Trade Commission judge’s ruling that bolsters its chances of blocking imports of Microsoft Corp. (MSFT)’s Xbox gaming system from entering the U.S. ITC Judge David Shaw said yesterday that Microsoft was violating four of five Motorola Mobility patents.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ins-ruling-in-microsoft-xbox-patent-case.html

Then Apple also got some bad news today:

Motorola Mobility Holdings Inc. (MMI) won a partial U.S. International Trade Commission judge’s ruling in its bid to block imports of Apple Inc. (AAPL)’s devices including the iPhone and iPad tablet computer.
Apple violated one of four Motorola Mobility patent rights being contested, ITC Judge Thomas Pender said in a notice posted today. The patent relates to 3G technology.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...wins-partial-ruling-in-apple-iphone-case.html

Looks like this will be an interesting year.
 
I thought all of these have been going on for a couple of years. Before Google took over, anyways.

But blah, blah, blah. Company A sues Company S and the court finds Company S is violating trademarks and patents. Company S sues Company A and the court finds Company A is violating patents and trademarks. In the end, everyone gets a cross-licensing deal.

That's why I'm not paying attention to any of this right now. This is process and it is currently in process. It will probably be another 5 years before the smoke is finally cleared and nothing will likely change for people like us in the end.
 
This is complete and utter rubbish. Moto can't sue over H.264, those patents are part of the MPEG-LA patent pool! Worse, if Moto gets away with this, everyone and their mother in the patent pool would do the same thing until the cost of using H.264 would render it impossible to license.
 
Deeko said:
I really don't understand why people think things like this.
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One could argue it's a cold war type situation where everybody's armed and presumably nobody wants mutually assured destruction. Then it turns out somebody decides they can gain something by launching missiles at the competition and all of a sudden it's not just a cold war anymore.
 
Deeko said:
I really don't understand why people think things like this.
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Uh... the patent wars started after Apple went ahead and used GSM technology without licensing it and Nokia sued them for it. Then Apple unleashed lawsuits on Google's device makers. Google bought Motorola as a defense. They would never have done so if Apple hadn't started suing their partners.
 
preslove said:
Uh... the patent wars started after Apple went ahead and used GSM technology without licensing it and Nokia sued them for it. Then Apple unleashed lawsuits on Google's device makers. Google bought Motorola as a defense. They would never have done so if Apple hadn't started suing their partners.
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apple was in negotiations to license it

under FRAND rules you have to license the patents for a few pennies per device or the same rate to everyone. competitors included

nokia and others wanted apple to pay a lot more because apple started taking a huge percentage of smart phone profits right away
 
alent1234 said:
apple was in negotiations to license it

under FRAND rules you have to license the patents for a few pennies per device or the same rate to everyone. competitors included

nokia and others wanted apple to pay a lot more because apple started taking a huge percentage of smart phone profits right away
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So, they should have dealt with Nokia in the courts on this issue. Instead they unleashed a patent world war that will end up costing consumers billions of dollars.

Apple is suing Google's device makers because they don't want smart phones to be inexpensive commodities. They want all smart phones to be expensive, designer items that have large profits-per-device. Google wants handsets to be as cheap as possible so more people can access Google search and click on their ads. If you side with Apple on this issue, then you are an fool. Google is the key to reducing handset prices (and wireless prices, indirectly).
 
preslove said:
So, they should have dealt with Nokia in the courts on this issue. Instead they unleashed a patent world war that will end up costing consumers billions of dollars.

Apple is suing Google's device makers because they don't want smart phones to be inexpensive commodities. They want all smart phones to be expensive, designer items that have large profits-per-device. Google wants handsets to be as cheap as possible so more people can access Google search and click on their ads. If you side with Apple on this issue, then you are an fool. Google is the key to reducing handset prices (and wireless prices, indirectly).
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...eh.....nevermind.
 
the point is that when motorola submitted their patents to the standards bodies they agreed to follow the rules in licensing them. this is the whole idea of standards and has been for years.

the reason android phones are cheaper is that if you look at the BoM, most times they are cheaper because the parts are cheaper
 
alent1234 said:
ha ha ha

google's evil plan to push webvm
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I think so too. It is almost like "Ok so you guys don't believe that h264 is a patent minefield, so we are going to start throwing rocks out there to show you how close you are to risking explosion."

the point is that when motorola submitted their patents to the standards bodies they agreed to follow the rules in licensing them.
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Moto did offer MS a license. Something like 2.5% of everything Xbox, ala "pay us for every Android." MS didn't like the taste of their own medicine, and now they will have to cut a deal that probably involves them no longer using the mobster strategy in regards to patents.

Apple is a similar deal. Apple's problem is that they wanted to make a phone but they didn't want to pay for each little part to the giants in the phone industry before them. Then once they had a new type of phone and it was successful they refused to allow anyone to infringe on their idea much like they infringed on the ideas of others. Which is fine really. The problem is Apple also wouldn't let anyone license their ideas, which could cripple the entire industry.

In both cases, Apple and MS wanted to have their cake and eat it too. And they would have gotten away with it due to how screwed up the system is if Google hadn't paid billions to basically hold them accountable.

Google wants MS to quit using its patents as a weapon, and they want Apple to allow others to license their patents as Moto and others have done. It looks like Google might get both things that they want.
 
Moto licenses these patents to others for pennies per device. they have to do the same to apple an MS. 2.5% is too much and against FRAND rules. apple has negotiated licensing for all frand patents they used when they first released the iphone

the patents apple and MS are suing under have nothing to do with any standard
 
poofyhairguy said:
Apple is a similar deal. Apple's problem is that they wanted to make a phone but they didn't want to pay for each little part to the giants in the phone industry before them. Then once they had a new type of phone and it was successful they refused to allow anyone to infringe on their idea much like they infringed on the ideas of others. Which is fine really. The problem is Apple also wouldn't let anyone license their ideas, which could cripple the entire industry.
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Didn't want to pay or didn't want to pay unfair prices? Apple doesn't have to license their ideas because its not under FRAND.
 
alent1234 said:
Moto licenses these patents to others for pennies per device. they have to do the same to apple an MS. 2.5% is too much and against FRAND rules.
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According to Moto that is a standard starting point for them an MS just refused to negotiate:

It said the offer is typical of those it makes to start negotiations and Microsoft never made a counter-offer.
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I guess the courts will decide who is in the right. Personally I have less of a problem with MS's approach compared to Apple's, so if MS is vindicated I think that doesn't really harm the industry greatly.

the patents apple and MS are suing under have nothing to do with any standard
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That is the real problem. Well, not with MS, but with Apple. Unlike everyone else in the industry they refuse to license their patents.
 
MrX8503 said:
Apple doesn't have to license their ideas because its not under FRAND.
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I think that is the real problem and the end goal of what Google is doing.

You can say that it is within Apple's right to not allow other companies to license iPhone related patents, but when they are so aggressive about defending the patents it hurts consumers who should have other options in the modern smartphone market besides Apple. Heck, that is the point of things like FRAND- to allow innovators to get paid while allowing the industry to move forward.

I personally believe that Apple shouldn't have the option of an injunction to protect consumers, and I fully expect one day some court will take that option away from them and force them to accept license payments for Android's continued existence.

Apple is like the little rich kid on the block who has the best toys. He is more than willing to go and play with the toys other kids have (FRAND) but he is not willing to share his toys. So the kid's parents (the courts) have to step in and force the kid to share the damn toys just so they don't have to hear complaining from the parents of the other kids in the neighborhood that they are raising a spoiled brat.

Apple invented the modern smartphone, and they deserve to be paid for it. They don't deserve a monopoly on that market. The screwed up rules might technically say that is within their rights, but that why we have things like courts and judges to make the kinds of practical decisions outside the rules that keep the gears of progress moving.

In the end of the day the only reason Apple even has the right to patent their inventions as that is supposed a benefit to society and spur progress. The second the system is used to stop progress I think the rules of society matter more than the laws on the books, and at the end of this I fully expect Apple to be forced to accept royalties for their inventions rather than injections. Maybe not here in America, but Europe seems to be leaning in that direction.
 
alent1234 said:
apple already licenses a lot of non-frand iphone patents to samsung
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But apparently not enough, as they have tried to seek an injunction against Samsung.

All the iPhone patents need to be in a FRAND-ish arrangement, and Apple should get royalties for them and nothing else.
 
for all you know apple and samsung are only suing each other to get legal recognition of their patents

and why should they be in FRAND? there is no touch screen standards body like for wifi and UMTS/HSPA/HSPDA
 
alent1234 said:
google has enough money to keep them in litigation for years
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I'm sure these people have enough money as well.

Apple Inc.
DAEWOO
Dolby Laboratories Licensing Corporation
Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute
France Télécom, société anonyme
Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der angewandten Forschung e.V.
Fujitsu Limited
Hitachi, Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Microsoft Corporation
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
NTT docomo
Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation
Panasonic Corporation
Robert Bosch GmbH
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Scientific-Atlanta Vancouver Company
Sedna Patent Services, LLC
Sharp Corporation
Siemens AG
Sony Corporation
Ericsson
The Trustees of Columbia University in the City of New York
Toshiba Corporation
Victor Company of Japan, Limited
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