Google done' goofed - fires employee for "opinions"

[Paratus]

These slides from Google's diversity training program help explain why fired engineer felt silenced -



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/slides-google-apos-diversity-training-223448403.html

Seems like there are some things you don't understand.

Inclusion and Innovation training isn't about arguing whether biases exist. The training assumes it does as does Demure. So they are in agreement on that point.

Second the reason you are not to repeat things said in the class is not to silence righties but to allow people in class to speak their minds without repercussions.

You see when some people are exposed to the idea that those who are different from themselves have different strengths, different weaknesses, have had different difficulties in life but bring valued points of view to the company, and need to be treated with respect they react negatively.

Some say sexist or racists things like science shows women and minorities aren't biologically suited to math. Could you imagine what would happen to someone who said things like that in class if other classmates started telling others about their bigotry? Why they might get fired.

The point is to allow people to say things like you do on P&N, address those myths and hopefully train them to be more tolerant of their coworkers.

 

[agent00f]

Seems like there are some things you don't understand.

Inclusion and Innovation training isn't about arguing whether biases exist. The training assumes it does as does Demure. So they are in agreement on that point.

Second the reason you are not to repeat things said in the class is not to silence righties but to allow people in class to speak their minds without repercussions.

You see when some people are exposed to the idea that those who are different from themselves have different strengths, different weaknesses, have had different difficulties in life but bring valued points of view to the company, and need to be treated with respect they react negatively.

Some say sexist or racists things like science shows women and minorities aren't biologically suited to math. Could you imagine what would happen to someone who said things like that in class if other classmates started telling others about their bigotry? Why they might get fired.

The point is to allow people to say things like you do on P&N, address those myths and hopefully train them to be more tolerant of their coworkers.

Pretty easy to see why people who love to express racist/sexist sentiments want that to be protected. That's really all they're arguing for.

 

[realibrad]

Seems like there are some things you don't understand.

Inclusion and Innovation training isn't about arguing whether biases exist. The training assumes it does as does Demure. So they are in agreement on that point.

Second the reason you are not to repeat things said in the class is not to silence righties but to allow people in class to speak their minds without repercussions.

You see when some people are exposed to the idea that those who are different from themselves have different strengths, different weaknesses, have had different difficulties in life but bring valued points of view to the company, and need to be treated with respect they react negatively.

Some say sexist or racists things like science shows women and minorities aren't biologically suited to math. Could you imagine what would happen to someone who said things like that in class if other classmates started telling others about their bigotry? Why they might get fired.

The point is to allow people to say things like you do on P&N, address those myths and hopefully train them to be more tolerant of their coworkers.

Who said that women and minorities are not biologically suited to math? They may have attributes that are not as strong as other groups, but that does not mean they are not suited. It just means they have a tougher time compared to those that have strengths.

Is that how you read all this? He said that women have different strengths and weaknesses and thus should not be in the field?

 

[agent00f]

Who said that women and minorities are not biologically suited to math? They may have attributes that are not as strong as other groups, but that does not mean they are not suited. It just means they have a tougher time compared to those that have strengths.

Is that how you read all this? He said that women have different strengths and weaknesses and thus should not be in the field?

"I'm not saying blacks are criminals or women are dumb but they naturally have a tough time following the law or getting all smart like us white guys".

Good example of what they love to express and desire to protect per my previous comment.

 

[realibrad]

"I'm not saying blacks are criminals or women are dumb but they naturally have a hard time following the law or getting smart like us white guys".

Hey honey, how has your day been?

 

[agent00f]

Hey honey, how has your day been?

Also easy to see why these types take far more issue with me than their colleagues like svnla or gamervivek.

 

[realibrad]

Also easy to see why these types take far more issue with me than their colleagues like svnla or gamervivek.

Darling, I asked how your day has gone thus far. Good, bad, is Becky in accounting annoying you again?

 

[agent00f]

Darling, I asked how your day has gone thus far. Good, bad, is Becky in accounting annoying you again?

This is such a perfectly illustration of the charlottesville issue and vice versa. Much like here where conservatism is bound to protect or otherwise look the other way for their more openly racist/sexist peers, we see the same effect there where they're similarly bound to straight up nazis.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Free speech protests against Google were called off after violent threats by leftists groups.
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/march-google-atlanta-other-cities-called-off/DYmJK7jmkbqH7fO9oKNudN/

"
A group protesting Google as an “anti-free speech monopoly” has postponed protest marches in nine cities, including Atlanta. The “March on Google” was to have taken place Saturday afternoon in Midtown Atlanta.

Marchongoogle.com said in a post Tuesday that it had received “credible alt-left terrorist threats.” The group has been linked to the alt-right but denied on its site that it had any such affiliation.

“Despite our clear and straightfoward statements denouncing bigotry and hatred, CNN and other mainstream media made malicious and false statements that our peaceful march was being organized by Nazi sympathizers,” the post said."

More of the same, violence and hatred and intimidation by the leftist groups.

 

[agent00f]

Free speech protests against Google were called off after violent threats by leftists groups.
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/march-google-atlanta-other-cities-called-off/DYmJK7jmkbqH7fO9oKNudN/

"
A group protesting Google as an “anti-free speech monopoly” has postponed protest marches in nine cities, including Atlanta. The “March on Google” was to have taken place Saturday afternoon in Midtown Atlanta.

Marchongoogle.com said in a post Tuesday that it had received “credible alt-left terrorist threats.” The group has been linked to the alt-right but denied on its site that it had any such affiliation.

“Despite our clear and straightfoward statements denouncing bigotry and hatred, CNN and other mainstream media made malicious and false statements that our peaceful march was being organized by Nazi sympathizers,” the post said."

More of the same, violence and hatred and intimidation by the leftist groups.

Don't worry, they can join their friends in charlottesville.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Where I explain affirmative action to you in great clarity:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/sc-upholds-ut-affirmative-action.2478216/page-5#post-38314590

I responded to the post you just linked and challenged some of your assertions. You are welcome to respond to my response at any time, which did not parrot any alt-right or Fox News talking points.

 

[agent00f]

I responded to the post you just linked and challenged some of your assertions. You are welcome to respond to my response at any time, which did not parrot any alt-right or Fox News talking points.

The only reason why I bothered was to show discussing anything with conservatives is an exercise in futility. If it weren't, it wouldn't be their primary stated goal to conserve the past. You know, the one where slow to learn women and the blacks vivek's talking about knew their place.

 

[fskimospy]

Free speech protests against Google were called off after violent threats by leftists groups.
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/march-google-atlanta-other-cities-called-off/DYmJK7jmkbqH7fO9oKNudN/

"
A group protesting Google as an “anti-free speech monopoly” has postponed protest marches in nine cities, including Atlanta. The “March on Google” was to have taken place Saturday afternoon in Midtown Atlanta.

Marchongoogle.com said in a post Tuesday that it had received “credible alt-left terrorist threats.” The group has been linked to the alt-right but denied on its site that it had any such affiliation.

“Despite our clear and straightfoward statements denouncing bigotry and hatred, CNN and other mainstream media made malicious and false statements that our peaceful march was being organized by Nazi sympathizers,” the post said."

More of the same, violence and hatred and intimidation by the leftist groups.

lol.

It is not entirely clear that the marches were actually going to take place, so what has been called off may never have been on. Marchongoogle.com said it had organized marches in nine cities, but it offered no information, for example, on who was organizing the march in Atlanta, how many people were expected or whether the march had a city permit. All it did was list a time, day and the address of Google offices in Midtown.

Evidence free claims from an activist group about calling off marches that may not have existed anyway sure seems like a good thing to base your opinion on!

Oh wait, it told you something you wanted to hear, of course you'll believe it. This is why people like you are such easy marks for conservative media. They know you will believe literally anything.

 

[Paratus]

What points do you agree with that the writer made?

I'm still having trouble with your stance here. You agree that there are differences, but you think those differences have no effect, even though we have study after study showing otherwise.

That link agrees the with assessment i and others made of the authors memo proceeding from false assumptions and incorrectly using science to try and argue that the current gender bias at Google is correct.

You have yet to provide me a study that shows biological differences in men and women mean there should be a large difference in the ratio of men and women in computer science at Google.

So far you've linked me studies on gender pay gaps which really doesn't have anything to do with it, an article about how the very best female professors are selected basically in accordance with their merit, (great but this applies broadly or specifically to Google how?) and some studies showing various differences between male and female. The existence of these differences does not primo facto mean they are the cause of the gender gap.

Meanwhile I and others have linked study's that show how bias against girls in science and math starts in school, continues on through secondary education reducing the ratio of girls to boys in fields requiring science and math and how biases in those hiring further reducing the number of women employed in those fields.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Free speech protests against Google were called off after violent threats by leftists groups.
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/march-google-atlanta-other-cities-called-off/DYmJK7jmkbqH7fO9oKNudN/

"
A group protesting Google as an “anti-free speech monopoly” has postponed protest marches in nine cities, including Atlanta. The “March on Google” was to have taken place Saturday afternoon in Midtown Atlanta.

Marchongoogle.com said in a post Tuesday that it had received “credible alt-left terrorist threats.” The group has been linked to the alt-right but denied on its site that it had any such affiliation.

“Despite our clear and straightfoward statements denouncing bigotry and hatred, CNN and other mainstream media made malicious and false statements that our peaceful march was being organized by Nazi sympathizers,” the post said."

More of the same, violence and hatred and intimidation by the leftist groups.

Insane person calls off imaginary protest:

(from the linked article)

"Infowars, the right-wing website, said the marches had been organized “in large part by Jack Posobiec, a frequent contributor to Infowars.”

Posobiec, who calls himself a “reality journalist,” was recently in the news for championing “Pizzagate,” an infamous conspiracy theory in which Hillary Clinton loyalists were supposedly running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington. He also has promoted claims that the Democratic National Committee was involved in the death of former staffer Seth Rich."

Definitely seems to be your kinda people.

 

[agent00f]

Insane person calls off imaginary protest:

(from the linked article)

"Infowars, the right-wing website, said the marches had been organized “in large part by Jack Posobiec, a frequent contributor to Infowars.”

Posobiec, who calls himself a “reality journalist,” was recently in the news for championing “Pizzagate,” an infamous conspiracy theory in which Hillary Clinton loyalists were supposedly running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington. He also has promoted claims that the Democratic National Committee was involved in the death of former staffer Seth Rich."

Definitely seems to be your kinda people.

Speaking of kinda people, always worth mentioning that import's friends here would never have the gall to say boo to a goosestepper.

 

[realibrad]

That link agrees the with assessment i and others made of the authors memo proceeding from false assumptions and incorrectly using science to try and argue that the current gender bias at Google is correct.

You have yet to provide me a study that shows biological differences in men and women mean there should be a large difference in the ratio of men and women in computer science at Google.

You are doing it again. This has never been about the magnitude, its been about saying that some of the difference might be biological. I beg you, please look at this from an unbiased view. At no point did I, or the author make any point that say anything about how much biology influenced the gap. The only point made was that biology played a role in the gap.

If you think I am wrong, link to where I have made the claim about magnitude, or the author has. If I am wrong, I can admit that.

So far you've linked me studies on gender pay gaps which really doesn't have anything to do with it, an article about how the very best female professors are selected basically in accordance with their merit, (great but this applies broadly or specifically to Google how?) and some studies showing various differences between male and female. The existence of these differences does not primo facto mean they are the cause of the gender gap.

Does this help?

The present study makes several important contributions to the literature. First, it is the first comprehensive meta-analysis on sex differences in vocational interests. We synthesized evidence from interest inventories over four decades and found large sex differences in vocational interests, with men preferring working with things and women preferring working with people. These sex differences are remarkably consistent across age and over time, providing an exception to the generalization that only small sex differences exist. Second, this study provides a systematic review of the sex differences in the STEM interests that has not previously appeared in the literature. The pattern of sex differences in the STEM interests revealed by the present study closely resembles the composition of men and women in corresponding occupations and contributes to the understanding of the gender disparity in the STEM fields. The results suggest that the relatively low numbers of women in some fields of science and engineering may result from women’s preference for people-oriented careers over things oriented careers

Women as individuals are not starting down the STEM path. That is a very different discussion from what the author of the Google doc was talking about. His document was what to do within the industry, and not the bias girls run into before entering the field.

Meanwhile I and others have linked study's that show how bias against girls in science and math starts in school, continues on through secondary education reducing the ratio of girls to boys in fields requiring science and math and how biases in those hiring further reducing the number of women employed in those fields.

Important issue sure, but not in any what the Google author started on. Its also not something that I disagree with. What is true is that there are fields where Women dominate.

https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.htm

At no point was the discussion ever about women not being good enough. It honestly pisses me off that you would even try to frame it that way. I cannot believe how many reasonable people are making arguments by methods they would normally denounce.

The guy made a claim that there is more going on than sexism. That while sexism is no doubt part of the gap, its not the only part and we should look into how much non sexism plays a role and what can be done to fix that. Its also true that we should not expect a 50/50 split as gender differences mean that on average women and men are driven to do different things.

 

[Paratus]

You are doing it again. This has never been about the magnitude, its been about saying that some of the difference might be biological. I beg you, please look at this from an unbiased view. At no point did I, or the author make any point that say anything about how much biology influenced the gap. The only point made was that biology played a role in the gap.

If you think I am wrong, link to where I have made the claim about magnitude, or the author has. If I am wrong, I can admit that.



Does this help?



Women as individuals are not starting down the STEM path. That is a very different discussion from what the author of the Google doc was talking about. His document was what to do within the industry, and not the bias girls run into before entering the field.





Important issue sure, but not in any what the Google author started on. Its also not something that I disagree with. What is true is that there are fields where Women dominate.

https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.htm

At no point was the discussion ever about women not being good enough. It honestly pisses me off that you would even try to frame it that way. I cannot believe how many reasonable people are making arguments by methods they would normally denounce.

The guy made a claim that there is more going on than sexism. That while sexism is no doubt part of the gap, its not the only part and we should look into how much non sexism plays a role and what can be done to fix that. Its also true that we should not expect a 50/50 split as gender differences mean that on average women and men are driven to do different things.

There's a reason so many are taking his memo as sexist with light trappings of science.

It's obvious to most that his memo is exactly stating that

- biologically women aren't good enough, that's why the gender gap exists, stop throwing money and resources at diversity to fix something that's biological and can't be fixed, and stop alienating male employees with diversity whom your business relys on.

I've color coded exactly how his memo makes that very point. The other link came to the same conclusion. Google fired him for it.

If you can't see any of that I can't help you anymore on this topic RB.

 

[agent00f]

There's a reason so many are taking his memo as sexist with light trappings of science.

It's obvious to most that his memo is exactly stating that

- biologically women aren't good enough, that's why the gender gap exists, stop throwing money and resources at diversity to fix something that's biological and can't be fixed, and stop alienating male employees with diversity whom your business relys on.

I've color coded exactly how his memo makes that very point. The other link came to the same conclusion. Google fired him for it.

If you can't see any of that I can't help you anymore on this topic RB.

brad & co have always had enough iq to see it, which is rather why they're defending it so hard in the first place. It's like accusing conservatives of being too dumb to recognize charlotesville marchers as nazis.

 

[bshole]

You have yet to provide me a study that shows biological differences in men and women mean there should be a large difference in the ratio of men and women in computer science at Google.

According to this paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, women are preferred by a ratio of 2:1 for STEM faculty positions in American universities. This is not indicative of a bias against women at all.

In addition, in the paper the author states: "Our research suggests that the mechanism resulting in women’s underrepresentation today may lie more on the supply side, in women’s decisions not to apply, than on the demand side, in anti-female bias in hiring."

To me, this paper seems to indicate that somehow female biology influences their job preference.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360

 

[agent00f]

According to this paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, women are preferred by a ratio of 2:1 for STEM faculty positions in American universities. This is not indicative of a bias against women at all.

In addition, in the paper the author states: "Our research suggests that the mechanism resulting in women’s underrepresentation today may lie more on the supply side, in women’s decisions not to apply, than on the demand side, in anti-female bias in hiring."

To me, this paper seems to indicate that somehow female biology influences their job preference.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360

Would you say female/male genetics are different in place where there's far less of a gap?

 

[realibrad]

There's a reason so many are taking his memo as sexist with light trappings of science.

It's obvious to most that his memo is exactly stating that

- biologically women aren't good enough, that's why the gender gap exists, stop throwing money and resources at diversity to fix something that's biological and can't be fixed, and stop alienating male employees with diversity whom your business relys on.

I've color coded exactly how his memo makes that very point. The other link came to the same conclusion. Google fired him for it.

If you can't see any of that I can't help you anymore on this topic RB.

But he never came close to saying women biologically are not good enough. What he did say was that women make preference choices based on their strengths and personal taste.

Answer me this then. Aside from what you think his intent is, do you think its fair to say that biology is a non-trivial factor? If yes please explain. It seems that the writer is somehow toxic and I don't seem to be taking in what I think he said and what you think he said. So put aside the writer, and tell me what differences men and women have and what the outcome of those difference might be.

 

[realibrad]

Would you say female/male genetics are different in place where there's far less of a gap?

Not all traits are uneven in men and women. So some positions my not be influenced by the traits where men and women share them unequally. So yes, in places where there is a more even ratio the genetics and the traits they drive are less of an influence which would lead to less of a gap.

There is a reason there are more female accountants than male accountants, and its not sexism.

 

[realibrad]

brad & co have always had enough iq to see it, which is rather why they're defending it so hard in the first place. It's like accusing conservatives of being too dumb to recognize charlotesville marchers as nazis.

I'm defending a false perspective because I have a high enough IQ to perceive the false perspective? huh?

 

[agent00f]

Not all traits are uneven in men and women. So some positions my not be influenced by the traits where men and women share them unequally. So yes, in places where there is a more even ratio the genetics and the traits they drive are less of an influence which would lead to less of a gap.

There is a reason there are more female accountants than male accountants, and its not sexism.

Sure there's a good reason why women feature more in lower paying tiers of a given field, eg the dental assistant vs dentist mentioned above.

I'm defending a false perspective because I have a high enough IQ to perceive the false perspective? huh?

I also recall mentioning that playing dumb is wasted on me.