Google done' goofed - fires employee for "opinions"

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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Interesting. I'm not going YouTube surfing, but any idea if he is legit or a hack? Or maybe legit but taken out of context and used by the anti-diversity crowd?

Jordan Petersen is kinda famous (the alt-right loves him). You can make up your own mind on him. His communication skills are equivalent to a Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,733
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I think the better analogy is that Google expects the ox they've chosen to produce milk.
I think it's Google's intention to attract as many women programmers as they can from a limited pool of qualified applicants and not to tolerate the implication is on a set of ideas that try to say there are reasons women don't do as well as men. Those qualified and capable women who want that job would surely seek to apply to some other company that doesn't throw that up in their face.

just look at it from a feminist perspective. 'How convenient it is for men who are driven by status to eliminate 50% of the competition on the basis that women applicants who apply in competitive fields are not similarly driven by it. They aren't looking to hire stay at home Moms. Broad spectrum generalities do not apply to applicants in expert fields. Women who seek out those fields are already exceptional, statistically abnormal. The guy that got fired has theories that are bull shit when looked at in context.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Well I'm guessing we have had different experiences when it comes to diversity and gender in the work place.

As I've already said every woman in my family is excellent at math and science. I also went back and checked. Of the people supporting a mission I was involved with 10 years ago about 36% were women, including the leads. That's not half but the numbers are continuing to increase.

This default position of gender differences having some negative effect in technical areas is nothing I've ever experienced. Quite the contrary it's been biases and culture that have been the problem.

I've had inclusion and innovation training at work given by someone with a neuroscience degree. People inherently rely on stereotypes / unconscious bias when it comes to making decisions about others when they are not being mindful. Being mindful means using your prefrontal cortex and actually thinking.

No one is mindful at all times. It's too expensive from an energy perspective. If you put someone in an fMRI you can see the bloodlflow and glucose use increasing to the prefrontal cortex when actually thinking hard about a subject.

Falling back on stereotypes / memory maps when making a decision saves energy and time. It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Quicker and less energy intensive thinking means less chance of being killed by an animal or other human and saving calories against starvation.

Another example of this is when you drive home and can't remember how you got there. You've already built the memory map in your head on how to do it, no reason to burn more energy paying close attention.

If you are not careful you'll do the same thing with stereotypes. We pick them up from everywhere, TV, media, our families and friends. If you are rushed, tired, distracted, etc it's easy to slip out of mindfulness and rely on stereotypes.

This is a real thing. It dove tails nicely with studies showing how teachers allow biases to push girls away from science and math. It also explains the orchestra study nicely. When evaluations are done blind the evaluators are left relying more heavily on merit and less on any bias. As a result female hires increased by 50%.
(I'll reiterate that this has nothing to do with women being more present in the arts than tech, This is an experiment on the biases of those evaluating women's performance.)

You and I are also reading his words differently.

One example:

In the memo he states:

"I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:"

I think you are keying off the blue text and taking at face value that he believes in diversity. (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so let me know if I'm way off)

I'm keying off the red text. He's pivoting from supporting diversity.

You'll point out that his only beef is in the way Google is going about diversity, a possibly legitimate complaint.

Let's look back a paragraph or so.

"Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged."

I think you are emphasizing his comments about diversity needs to be done in way that helps Google and isn't arbitrary.

I see him having a problem with diversity in general. He wants to protect those that work harder and longer to get ahead and states if they don't it will be disastrous. By itself that sounds reasonable, people who work hard should get ahead in a meritocracy, but we will come back to that in a moment.

In the last part he warns that diversity is expensive and those benefits really need to be worth it before spending money that we suprisingly don't have much of on them.

Finally let's back up a few more paragraphs.

"
Men’s higher drive for status
We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many men in these jobs. These positions often require long, stressful hours that may not be worth it if you want a balanced and fulfilling life.

Status is the primary metric that men are judged on[4], pushing many men into these higher paying, less satisfying jobs for the status that they entail. Note, the same forces that lead men into high pay/high stress jobs in tech and leadership cause men to take undesirable and dangerous jobs like coal mining, garbage collection, and firefighting, and suffer 93% of work-related deaths."

So on this last paragraph my guess is you see him pointing out that men's gender driven need for status can be objectively harmful to them as a balance to where he's described women's gender driven attributes that maybe harmful to them.


I see him saying men push for higher paying jobs by working longer and harder. Couple that with the comments above and he feels it would be disastrous for the company if diversity reduced the drive for men to stop working long hours to accommodate more women.

So why is the company spending money they don't have on diversity? A concept he philosophically disagrees with because he see it as discrimination towards himself and other men.

But he's strongly for diversity......

Overall you see him as presenting a balanced argument and supporting diversity.

I see him as saying he's for diversity but then undermining the very concept by the way he presents his argument.

@xthetenth already provided a great explanation about him not really arguing from a balanced position.

Hope this helps you out.

This is what I have come to expect from you.

"I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:"

Discrimination is something that should be defined here. He is using it in the sense that picking one person over another because of race, gender, or beliefs is generally what is meant. Technically picking the best person in terms of skill would be discrimination, but I don't think that is how you or I intend to use it.

So it logically follows that the types of discrimination he is talking about are the ones where the best person for the job in terms of skills is overlooked because Google wants a different race, gender, or belief in the person. If you disagree let me know.

"Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged."

Two parts here. First is should we be trying to have a specific ratio of people with different genders, race, and beliefs. The second part I am not sure why you highlighted but I will address that too.

First, Google is not looking for equal representation here. If they were then their programs would also look for "conservatives" and other diversity. If the argument is that internal bias causes minorities to be kept out of Google, then the same must be true for conservatives and yet that is not an issue.

Further, why should we expect parity relative to demographics? Study after study establishes that while there is standard deviation exists, there are general traits that men and women have. So why would we believe that parity should be established when there is gender dimorphism? I agree that if someone is best qualified, but not the norm that anyone not wanting to hire that person would seem stupid, but his point clearly was that some of the reason we see lack of parity might be inherent to the differences in the genders. He did not say if it was biological or social, but that genders and their traits have an influence that we should accept as having an impact.

Second, those willing to work more hours and take on more stress are likely to get ahead. Not sure what else to say other than I agree. If you are willing to do more and give up more of your time/energy where quality is equal, you are going to get ahead.

He also does not say diversity is expensive. You may want to read over that section again, because what he says is that diversity "programs" have a cost, which is true. Any time you divert resources that are finite to analyzing you incur a cost which is a fundamental truth.

He also did not say that Google is spending money it does not have. He said that using resources is a zero-sum which is also true. Using resources on diversity programs that may or may not work and may or may not benefit the company means the same resources could not be used anywhere else as they are now gone. Also reasonable.

I think the main point is this. If you believe that there are traits more or less typical in men and women then the logical conclusion is that you will see differences in terms of representation in different professions.

You seem to believe that he has made a claim about biology vs social in terms of magnitude which I still do not see support for.

You seem to believe that he sees diversity as expensive, rather than the programs to increase diversity as expensive which I believe is a misunderstanding of what you may have read.

You seem to believe that he sees an increase in other underrepresented groups as inherently discrimination against him, when in reality he is saying that less qualified people are being pushed ahead and over valued because they are of a non-white non-male group. Thinking that a particular group of people are better for the company because of race, gender, beliefs is either racism, sexism, or bigotry inherently. That is because it says that race x, gender x, or belief x is more valuable rather than the skills and talents the person brings. Talent can be influenced by those things, but they are not inherent to those things. Which is why we would want to hire individuals and their traits, and not individuals because of their groups.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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I think it's Google's intention to attract as many women programmers as they can from a limited pool of qualified applicants and not to tolerate the implication is on a set of ideas that try to say there are reasons women don't do as well as men. Those qualified and capable women who want that job would surely seek to apply to some other company that doesn't throw that up in their face.

just look at it from a feminist perspective. 'How convenient it is for men who are driven by status to eliminate 50% of the competition on the basis that women applicants who apply in competitive fields are not similarly driven by it. They aren't looking to hire stay at home Moms. Broad spectrum generalities do not apply to applicants in expert fields. Women who seek out those fields are already exceptional, statistically abnormal. The guy that got fired has theories that are bull shit when looked at in context.

Google is literally under investigation by the labor dept for gender wage gap, of course they're doing everything they can to appear diverse.

Let me know if it's too charitable to assume you have enough self-respect to avoid playing dumber than starbuck, or at least realibrad.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Google is literally under investigation by the labor dept for gender wage gap, of course they're doing everything they can to appear diverse.

Let me know if it's too charitable to assume you have enough self-respect to avoid playing dumber than starbuck, or at least realibrad.

Not like they have been trying to increase women for a long time. No, they only just started when they knew they were going to be investigated.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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Not like they have been trying to increase women for a long time. No, they only just started when they knew they were going to be investigated.

So is pretty much every corp which benefits from looking fwd, in contrast to a party of people living in the past.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
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This is what I have come to expect from you.

Shame you can't acknowledge better posting than your own elsewhere in the reply.

"I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:"

Discrimination is something that should be defined here. He is using it in the sense that picking one person over another because of race, gender, or beliefs is generally what is meant. Technically picking the best person in terms of skill would be discrimination, but I don't think that is how you or I intend to use it.

So it logically follows that the types of discrimination he is talking about are the ones where the best person for the job in terms of skills is overlooked because Google wants a different race, gender, or belief in the person. If you disagree let me know.

Is creating programs designed to offset/mitigate known biases discrimination, or would the action of doing nothing in the face of them be actually more discriminatory?

He's starting from the premise that the former is discrimination, but somehow the latter isn't just less discriminatory but in fact isn't discrimination at all. Of course later on he switches it around when it's time to claim persecution, when suddenly he claims that there is discrimination and that allowing it to persist is intolerable.

How do you reconcile his inconsistent treatment of discrimination with anything other than the conclusion that he only cares about things that affect himself and his appeals to equality are an invocation of the language of it rather than any attempt to incorporate the principle itself?

"Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged."

Two parts here. First is should we be trying to have a specific ratio of people with different genders, race, and beliefs. The second part I am not sure why you highlighted but I will address that too.

First, Google is not looking for equal representation here. If they were then their programs would also look for "conservatives" and other diversity. If the argument is that internal bias causes minorities to be kept out of Google, then the same must be true for conservatives and yet that is not an issue.

Why do you think that conservatives are a key part of diversity as something that benefits businesses? You don't have a justification for it as anything other than exclusionary, at which point it becomes something that you have to choose between it and diversity. Do you think that a workplace where judging your suitability to work there based on your membership of a group of literally billions rather than who you are personally is on the table is going to be anything other than exhausting to work at? No. Prejudice is a serious problem in a workplace and leads to reduced retention and productivity from talent that has been recruited at cost to the company. Would you also select for luddites? No. People who are ideologically opposed to the smooth functioning of their workplace don't belong.

Further, why should we expect parity relative to demographics? Study after study establishes that while there is standard deviation exists, there are general traits that men and women have. So why would we believe that parity should be established when there is gender dimorphism? I agree that if someone is best qualified, but not the norm that anyone not wanting to hire that person would seem stupid, but his point clearly was that some of the reason we see lack of parity might be inherent to the differences in the genders. He did not say if it was biological or social, but that genders and their traits have an influence that we should accept as having an impact.

That's not what he's asking. He's not willing to put equal status on the table. He's not willing to talk about differences between men and women in any other context than female inferiority. If women are more socially oriented and more neurotic, then why aren't they a perfect fit for programming, where coordinating large teams is a major hurdle and perfectionism associated with neuroticism is a valuable trait? It's not even hard to hypothesize about places where women might have advantages or admit the possibility that an ideal workplace would shift more towards a culture that women do better than men in. But he doesn't do it. He's not engaging honestly, he's starting with the unwritten premise that women are inferior and is coming up with justifications

Second, those willing to work more hours and take on more stress are likely to get ahead. Not sure what else to say other than I agree. If you are willing to do more and give up more of your time/energy where quality is equal, you are going to get ahead.

He also does not say diversity is expensive. You may want to read over that section again, because what he says is that diversity "programs" have a cost, which is true. Any time you divert resources that are finite to analyzing you incur a cost which is a fundamental truth.

He also did not say that Google is spending money it does not have. He said that using resources is a zero-sum which is also true. Using resources on diversity programs that may or may not work and may or may not benefit the company means the same resources could not be used anywhere else as they are now gone. Also reasonable.

Huh. What's that word you said there again? Benefit. He glides right on over the possibility that those programs are worth more than they cost, that they in fact do benefit the company. Which is really weird when you get down to it, professional development is a key concern for companies that actually handle promotion within their ranks. You could make the argument in theory that it'd be better spent on programs for the whole company, but then you need to handle the fact that he's arguing that there's biological differences that supposedly make women less suited to the job, in which case that is something specific to them and the end result is an irreconcilable contradiction.

How does he reconcile women having specific differences from men and it being discriminatory and wrong to have specific programs for female employees' professional development? Either he's trying to have his cake and eat it too (he totally is), or he feels like it's a waste of time to try and address this gap, in which case, you have to ask whether the natural conclusion of his argument isn't that no women should be in tech at all?

I think the main point is this. If you believe that there are traits more or less typical in men and women then the logical conclusion is that you will see differences in terms of representation in different professions.

You seem to believe that he has made a claim about biology vs social in terms of magnitude which I still do not see support for.

You seem to believe that he sees diversity as expensive, rather than the programs to increase diversity as expensive which I believe is a misunderstanding of what you may have read.

The main point is as follows. He talks about differences between women and men, but only from the perspective of differences making women inferior. He does not admit the possibility of women being better suited in some aspects.

He talks about the costs of diversity and the programs to encourage it, but he doesn't admit the possibility that it provides benefits that could outweigh the costs.

Can you dispute either of those points?

You seem to believe that he sees an increase in other underrepresented groups as inherently discrimination against him, when in reality he is saying that less qualified people are being pushed ahead and over valued because they are of a non-white non-male group. Thinking that a particular group of people are better for the company because of race, gender, beliefs is either racism, sexism, or bigotry inherently. That is because it says that race x, gender x, or belief x is more valuable rather than the skills and talents the person brings. Talent can be influenced by those things, but they are not inherent to those things. Which is why we would want to hire individuals and their traits, and not individuals because of their groups.

Why is it that suddenly you switch over to wanting to hire individuals and their traits after a huge long rant talking about the differences between groups all of a sudden when the discussion shifts away from why white men are over represented in an industry where bias in their favor is well documented to programs to counterbalance that bias?

How do you reconcile having no firm stance on either side of an issue of hiring and professional development except that white men stand to win from it with any professions you have of being a decent and fair person?

It'd be super cool if you answered any of the questions I'm asking. Heck it'd be cool if you could.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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I've never seen a corporation that looked past the next quarter. Occasionally an individual but, never the whole corporation.

If that were the case then most wouldn't last as long as they have. If you look at it as an evolutionary ecosytem these are the survivors.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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If that were the case then most wouldn't last as long as they have. If you look at it as an evolutionary ecosytem these are the survivors.
That's the worst comparison for corporate operations I've ever seen. Corporations are much closer to parasites who only evolve when their host dies.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
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That's the worst comparison for corporate operations I've ever seen. Corporations are much closer to parasites who only evolve when their host dies.

Business entities can very much be thought of as akin to biological ones, and it's only relative ignorance of both which presents a hurdle. For example, "parasites" arguably constitute the majority of species, which would hardly be the case if their strategy were stupid.

Entities less adapted to changing environments than others die out, and what you see are the survivors for good reason. I think it would be hard to argue that goog is a dumber entity than the dark age peasants here.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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Business entities can very much be thought of as akin to biological ones, and it's only relative ignorance of both which presents a hurdle. For example, "parasites" arguably constitute the majority of species, which would hardly be the case if their strategy were stupid.

Entities less adapted to changing environments than others die out, and what you see are the survivors for good reason. I think it would be hard to argue that goog is a dumber entity than the dark age peasants here.
You missed the entire point. Why am I not surprised? Parasites add nothing to the host. They simply grow and multiply for their own gain.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
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You missed the entire point. Why am I not surprised? Parasites add nothing to the host. They simply grow and multiply for their own gain.

No, it's just simple reality you're ignorant of evolutionary biology, for example the bacteria in your digestive tract or even basic parts of cellular systems started out less beneficial to their hosts but out-competed the alternatives.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
No, it's just simple reality you're ignorant of evolutionary biology, for example the bacteria in your digestive tract or even basic parts of cellular systems started out less beneficial to their hosts but out-competed the alternatives.
And here I thought we were talking about corporations. Please give me an example of a parasite becoming beneficial.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
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And here I thought we were talking about corporations. Please give me an example of a parasite becoming beneficial.

Yes we were talking about corporations with smarter survival strategies than neckbeards.

Btw, the two examples above you were evidently far too dumb to ever understand so more probably won't help.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Yes we were talking about corporations with smarter survival strategies than neckbeards.

Btw, the two examples above you were evidently far too dumb to ever understand so more probably won't help.
Name calling and deflection in the same response. Now, if you could just add a little political commentary...
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I think it's Google's intention to attract as many women programmers as they can from a limited pool of qualified applicants and not to tolerate the implication is on a set of ideas that try to say there are reasons women don't do as well as men. Those qualified and capable women who want that job would surely seek to apply to some other company that doesn't throw that up in their face.

just look at it from a feminist perspective. 'How convenient it is for men who are driven by status to eliminate 50% of the competition on the basis that women applicants who apply in competitive fields are not similarly driven by it. They aren't looking to hire stay at home Moms. Broad spectrum generalities do not apply to applicants in expert fields. Women who seek out those fields are already exceptional, statistically abnormal. The guy that got fired has theories that are bull shit when looked at in context.
Well said. Before responding, I have to ask. How does it feel to have @agent00flail tether his flaccid intellectual noodle to your response after not so long ago dismissing you as a degenerate sympathizer?

As for your point, let's instead look at it from the perspective of the average white male. Google has the luxury of attracting from the very best talent pool. If you are a female Stanford grad with an offer from Google, you are in an incredible position of privilege relative to 90% of the population. The only reason diversity is even part of this conversation is for political reasons. This whole discussion seems like a bunch of flailing over solving 1st world problems for which the urgency to do so is driven by optics rather than ethics.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
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Well said. Before responding, I have to ask. How does it feel to have @agent00flail tether his flaccid intellectual noodle to your response after not so long ago dismissing you as a degenerate sympathizer?

As for your point, let's instead look at it from the perspective of the average white male. Google has the luxury of attracting from the very best talent pool. If you are a female Stanford grad with an offer from Google, you are in an incredible position of privilege relative to 90% of the population. The only reason diversity is even part of this conversation is for political reasons. This whole discussion seems like a bunch of flailing over solving 1st world problems for which the urgency to do so is driven by optics rather than ethics.

Moonbeam is just more flexible in his opportunism than the degens 4 life crowd. In fairness you guys will serve as an excellent lesson for future generations same as the blacks can't do our jobs crowd.
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
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Well, maybe you can help me on this, because there is an extremely close parallel here with APA's historical treatment of homosexuality. First homosexuality itself was a disorder, then in DSM III it became something like "ego dystonic homosexuality," then it was "sexual disorder not otherwise specified," which included distress caused by one's sexual orientation. Except the distress was only indirectly caused by one's sexual orientation. The direct cause was society's condemnation of a certain sexual orientation. So the true cause isn't even an issue for psychiatry, but rather an issue for sociologists. While the psychological component can be treated as a symptom of the broader sociological problem of intolerance. I see no evidence that either homosexuality or TG would cause distress without social alienation, so I don't understand the necessity of this definitional linkage between the two.

I'm not the best to comment on the historical treatment of transgenderism in psychiatry as those specific problems predate my training and frankly psychiatrists have minimal training on the subject anyway. Clinical psychology probably differs greatly in this regard.

I see no evidence that post-traumatic stress disorder would exist without the experience of trauma. Or that borderline personality disorder would exist without instability or invalidation in early identity development. Why does it matter that the identity disturbance depends upon social or cultural norms, expectations, and external events, and external responses? The distress is real. Would you rather no one attempt to understand it and study how one might help people with the distress best?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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I'm not the best to comment on the historical treatment of transgenderism in psychiatry as those specific problems predate my training and frankly psychiatrists have minimal training on the subject anyway. Clinical psychology probably differs greatly in this regard.

I see no evidence that post-traumatic stress disorder would exist without the experience of trauma. Or that borderline personality disorder would exist without instability or invalidation in early identity development. Why does it matter that the identity disturbance depends upon social or cultural norms, expectations, and external events, and external responses? The distress is real. Would you rather no one attempt to understand it and study how one might help people with the distress best?

Of course they should try to understand the reason for the distress, but this does not necessitate treating it as a separate diagnostic category. I assume when you treat something like "major depression" you try to understand what is causing it. If it is caused by occupational stress, you wouldn't call it "occupational dysphoria," but you might suggest ways to better manage job stress. I think PTSD may warrant a classification because the pattern of distress is distinguishable, i.e. it involves things like experiencing flashbacks which is not necessarily common to distress from other causes.

The thing is, the distress of TG or gays is probably because of social alienation. In that sense, it isn't any different than being bullied/ostracized because you're black, or ugly, or Jewish, or fat. People who are ridiculed and ostracized are going to experience emotional distress. I guess I just don't understand why one reason for this social alienation warrants a separate diagnosis but not others. It wouldn't be so bothersome if it wasn't so obvious that the one still has its own diagnostic label is the one where social acceptance is lagging behind the others. Gays still experience distress from social alienation but because society as a whole has leaned toward tolerance, this distress is now just generic depression. The conclusion that TG remains a "disorder" because of lagging social acceptance is pretty inescapable.
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
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Of course they should try to understand the reason for the distress, but this does not necessitate treating it as a separate diagnostic category. I assume when you treat something like "major depression" you try to understand what is causing it. If it is caused by occupational distress, you wouldn't call it "occupational dysphoria," but you might suggest ways to better manage job stress. I think PTSD may warrant a classification because the pattern of distress is distinguishable, i.e. it involves things like experiencing flashbacks which is not necessarily common to distress from other causes.

The thing is, the distress of TG or gays is probably because of social alienation. In that sense, it isn't any different than being bullied/ostracized because you're black, or ugly, or Jewish, or fat. People who are ridiculed and ostracized are going to experience emotional distress. I guess I just don't understand why one reason for this social alienation warrants a separate diagnosis but not others. It wouldn't be so bothersome if it wasn't so obvious that the one still has its own diagnostic label is the one where social acceptance is lagging behind the others. Gays still experience distress from social alienation but because society as a whole has leaned toward tolerance, this distress is now just generic depression. The conclusion that TG remains a "disorder" because of lagging social acceptance is pretty inescapable.

Do not lump this with major depressive illness. The comorbidity may be common, but suggesting they are in any way the same is grossly incorrect. And I say this with a lot of conflict in the definition and (moreso) application of MDD (or BPAD) diagnoses.

And you are basically correct. You can take any group of people that with significant frequency are bullied/ostracized and classify and study the distress caused as a result. I believe gender dysphoria to be a bit more important to classify separately on the basis that gender has (in general) an extremely integral role in concept of self relative to other group identities, and gender identity conflicts are abstract and often ambiguous within an individual. Whereas (certainly not without exception) a black person knows in a concrete sense they are black and so does everyone else.

But there is a difference between what is practical to identify, study, and classify. You could separate depression (for instance) into 20 different subtypes (arbitrary number) and validly collect data that affects epidemiology and/or treatment between subtypes. And virtually no psychiatrist would be able to keep track of it and utilize it. Hell, there's already some specifiers (melancholic, atypical) which do have epidemiologic and treatment data that is clinically relevant whose actual practical use in my experience is virtually nil.

Which does raise a perfectly valid question. Was gender dysphoria common enough when it was first described to warrant its inclusion in the DSM? I actually suspect the answer was no, and its inclusion probably had a lot to do with biases which are no longer supported by the mainstream psychiatric community. And, if it were not already an established diagnosis with literature pertaining to it, then I would think it right to seriously question whether it would be a good idea to study. I'd probably still say yes, because I have seen many transgender patients in mental health who have very clinically relevant distress related to their gender identity. Now, none of those patients presented to me specifically for gender dysphoria, and I don't think I've ever diagnosed it, but I've certainly been happy to help someone navigate how their gender identity intersects with their life and other mental health issues, and have referred patients to therapists in the community with that specific expertise. Never have I told someone they have had a problem with gender dysphoria nor made such a referral outside of the specific request of a patient. However, I have tried very hard to establish a therapeutic environment wherein someone was free to discuss these issues in a neutral and safe fashion and have had patients thank me because they wanted to talk about it but never felt comfortable that a provider in the past was sufficiently comfortable, interested, or non-judgmental enough to do so.

And that's all I suggest. I don't want the diagnosis to go away because having it provides funding, training, and attention to something that is critically important to the lives of many people and yet is incredibly difficult for many to approach in a therapeutic way.

I fully recognize that, historically, the psychiatric community has done a lot to stigmatize certain individuals. And there are a lot of providers out there who in actuality aren't any good at helping certain people. And that's sad because it means there are a lot of people who would actually be able to benefit from psychiatric help never try in the first place or give up either too early or because their experience with one provider sabotages their chances with the next.
 

FIVR

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Jun 1, 2016
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