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nurturedhate

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2011
1,662
481
136
Ultra Street Fighter 2 first person mode:

https://twitter.com/Furious_blog/status/831860186331557888?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

And just as anticipated, the responsiveness of the switch controllers is pretty crappy, about on par with the wii controllers.

And this looks so terrible. What a waste of resources to even add this mini game.
Yea... That's cool for all of six and a half minutes. Still picking up Zelda, Bomberman, and a pro controller on release day though. Zelda needs to be at least as good as A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time if not much better (massively tall task) to quell any second guessing. There will be a decent handful of games by years end at least.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,049
468
126
Cartridge based games. While some like to consider that to be a negative for some bizarre reason, a big plus is that you don't need to install games to local memory because cartridge access times are much faster than blu-ray seek times.

That said, you can buy a 256GB micro sdcard today if portability is of extreme importance to you. It'll cost a fair bit, but you will have the best portable gaming system around with room for dozens of games.
Just like you can buy a 2TB hard drive for your PS4 but you can fit more than a handful of games on the built in drive in that. The only game worth playing on launch, Zelda, if you buy it digital, already fills up half your available memory. There is no way to spin 32GB for a 2017 gaming system is more than adequate with game updates, DLC, and everything moving more and more digital.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Cheap DVDs or even blu-rays vs the cost of flash? Okay. Flash ram is far more volatile price wise than optical.
edit: game cartridges are ROM, not RAM, FYI.

It's irrelevant. It's like kindle books vs dead tree books. The kindle digital copy costs the publisher a minuscule fraction of what a real physical book costs, yet those savings are not typically passed on to the buyer. Paradoxically, many books on amazon are cheaper (with free shipping) to buy in physical paperback format rather than digital.

When you are comparing $40-$60 video games, the manufacturer saving $.25 by using a disc instead of a cartridge isn't going to passed along to you as any meaningful cost savings. On the other hand, from an end user perspective, cartridge are superior in almost every way. Smaller, more portable. Runs fine from the media directly, doesn't need to be installed. Virtually indestructible compared to discs that can be easily scratched in a bad fall or in the hands of a young child. Better resale value. Virtually indestructible reading mechanism on the console (my PS4 is already failing to properly eject discs occasionally, which is super annoying considering how rarely I use it).

Cartridges win in every possible measure. The added manufacturing cost of <$1 is irrelevant to us, as those costs are not being factored into the pricing of games anyway.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,711
249
106
edit: game cartridges are ROM, not RAM, FYI.

It's irrelevant. It's like kindle books vs dead tree books. The kindle digital copy costs the publisher a minuscule fraction of what a real physical book costs, yet those savings are not typically passed on to the buyer. Paradoxically, many books on amazon are cheaper (with free shipping) to buy in physical paperback format rather than digital.

When you are comparing $40-$60 video games, the manufacturer saving $.25 by using a disc instead of a cartridge isn't going to passed along to you as any meaningful cost savings. On the other hand, from an end user perspective, cartridge are superior in almost every way. Smaller, more portable. Runs fine from the media directly, doesn't need to be installed. Virtually indestructible compared to discs that can be easily scratched in a bad fall or in the hands of a young child. Better resale value. Virtually indestructible reading mechanism on the console (my PS4 is already failing to properly eject discs occasionally, which is super annoying considering how rarely I use it).

Cartridges win in every possible measure. The added manufacturing cost of <$1 is irrelevant to us, as those costs are not being factored into the pricing of games anyway.
Except some people don't want physical media, at all especially for a device they expect you to bring with you in a portable fashion. I know I hated traveling with my 3DS because I had to lug around a travel case for my game carts. Internal memory is all they will use and starting off at 32GB for a modern device is pathetic especially a gaming device. Sure you can use an SD card but Nintendo is cheaping out by not offering a lot more internal memory out of the box IMO.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
You do realize the reason the switch is a viable portable is BECAUSE it doesn't have a standard hard disk drive or blu-ray reader? Such hardware would needlessly bulk up the device, and it wouldn't really be a portable anymore. For capacity in a small form factor, cartridges and sdcards are the only viable option.

32GB is hardly pathetic, it's pretty much industry standard. Even high end $600 phones typically start at 32GB, and with those you don't have the option to purchase apps on cartridges. I'd rather pay $300 for a switch and $60 for a 128GB sd than pay $350 for a switch with 128GB of base storage.

As I see it, there is a reason for every design decision involved in the switch. It wouldn't have worked with a disc based system, period. It wouldn't have worked with a hard disk drive either. While you might fantasize about the idea of a 512GB base nvme SSD storage, I don't think the switch would work with the required $500 MSRP to sustain such hardware.

Edit: And one other thought. While you might balk at the storage size of the switch, I balk at the fact that modern xbox and playstation consoles still ship with hard disk drives. SSD are incredibly cheap. There is no excuse to be selling brand new revised consoles and still cripple them by giving them hard disk based storage.

Realistically, I figure I'll have one big "AAA" title game I want to play at a time, which will be inserted as a cartridge. If I want to carry a few other cartridges around, it's still going to be a more portable package than any other console. And if I want to have a variety of virtual console games and smallish retro style games, hundreds will easily fit on the base storage. If all that isn't enough, I can use a fairly cheap 128GB sdcard, or splurge and get a 256GB card if I really want to maximize my portability.

At that point, yes it's a little pricey to add a 256GB sdcard, but you are getting a package that can not be duplicated at all by an xbox or PS4 at any cost.
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
315
126
Except some people don't want physical media, at all especially for a device they expect you to bring with you in a portable fashion. I know I hated traveling with my 3DS because I had to lug around a travel case for my game carts. Internal memory is all they will use and starting off at 32GB for a modern device is pathetic especially a gaming device. Sure you can use an SD card but Nintendo is cheaping out by not offering a lot more internal memory out of the box IMO.
Seeing how it's more like 26gb after the OS I do agree that 64GB would have been better. I think 32GB cuts it close especially when they say every game patch/saves will only use the internal space. 32GB makes me nervous and 64GB would give the Switch more breathing room.

Honestly though I don't see how even 64GB would have been enough for "modern games" if you wanted to go download only. Hell I don't see how any amount of built in flash memory would have been enough for that purpose AND stay affordable. Frankly cartridges mitigate the whole "even though I bought a disc the game has to install 20+gb on my machine because disc drives are too damn slow" problem and that means a direct comparison to disc based consoles isn't appropriate.

As a portable it's bad it only has 32GB compared to 64GB, but it's good that expansion is via Microsd and not via proprietary memory (looking at you Sony) or via a $400 Switch with 128GB built in Apple-style.

In other news the OS looks really slick as seen in leaks today. I like the dark theme.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,711
249
106
You do realize the reason the switch is a viable portable is BECAUSE it doesn't have a standard hard disk drive or blu-ray reader? Such hardware would needlessly bulk up the device, and it wouldn't really be a portable anymore. For capacity in a small form factor, cartridges and sdcards are the only viable option.

32GB is hardly pathetic, it's pretty much industry standard. Even high end $600 phones typically start at 32GB, and with those you don't have the option to purchase apps on cartridges. I'd rather pay $300 for a switch and $60 for a 128GB sd than pay $350 for a switch with 128GB of base storage.

As I see it, there is a reason for every design decision involved in the switch. It wouldn't have worked with a disc based system, period. It wouldn't have worked with a hard disk drive either. While you might fantasize about the idea of a 512GB base nvme SSD storage, I don't think the switch would work with the required $500 MSRP to sustain such hardware.

Edit: And one other thought. While you might balk at the storage size of the switch, I balk at the fact that modern xbox and playstation consoles still ship with hard disk drives. SSD are incredibly cheap. There is no excuse to be selling brand new revised consoles and still cripple them by giving them hard disk based storage.

Realistically, I figure I'll have one big "AAA" title game I want to play at a time, which will be inserted as a cartridge. If I want to carry a few other cartridges around, it's still going to be a more portable package than any other console. And if I want to have a variety of virtual console games and smallish retro style games, hundreds will easily fit on the base storage. If all that isn't enough, I can use a fairly cheap 128GB sdcard, or splurge and get a 256GB card if I really want to maximize my portability.

At that point, yes it's a little pricey to add a 256GB sdcard, but you are getting a package that can not be duplicated at all by an xbox or PS4 at any cost.
The real problem is this is a home system first so it is a double edged sword in a way.

As for the PS4 and Xbox only having a normal HDD, they don't suffer from degradation when they get full and don't need garbage collection. It's arguably a better solution for the long term. They are also much cheaper for the same capacity. Compare a 1TB SSD to a 1TB HDD and you'll see why. Plus they do not benefit much from an SSD. You think SSD drives are cheap? Sure if you only want a 128GB drive in there. A 500GB SSD is $130 or so off amazon while you can buy a 500GB HDD for $40.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
50,204
3,155
126
I'm going to just leave this hear because Toyota is sponsoring USF2 for Switch and it is related to it. And it's fucking badass.

 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,049
468
126
Why do we finally get to learn that eShop purchases are finally tied to your Nintendo account after a leak and not from Nintendo themselves? Two weeks away and they are still silent about so many huge questions everyone has. Why are they so afraid to announce basic stuff?
 
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Ranulf

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
1,626
150
106
32GB is hardly pathetic, it's pretty much industry standard. Even high end $600 phones typically start at 32GB, and with those you don't have the option to purchase apps on cartridges. I'd rather pay $300 for a switch and $60 for a 128GB sd than pay $350 for a switch with 128GB of base storage.
Most phones aren't installing 10gb+ games on their memory storage. I'd rather have the larger native storage and the sd card port. I wasn't ripping on them going with cartridges for a portable system but that does again point to the problems of a hybrid system. Also, Nintendo keeps saying it is a home console yet... no optical dock, though possibly the ability to hook up portable hard drives. For such a portable system, you're going to need to bring along all your game carts. Also, SSDs aren't that cheap lately but an option for those who wish to pay that price for xbox/ps4, just like you buying your 128gb sd card, that is more expensive than most ssd drives.
 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,049
468
126
Most phones aren't installing 10gb+ games on their memory storage. I'd rather have the larger native storage and the sd card port. I wasn't ripping on them going with cartridges for a portable system but that does again point to the problems of a hybrid system. Also, Nintendo keeps saying it is a home console yet... no optical dock, though possibly the ability to hook up portable hard drives. For such a portable system, you're going to need to bring along all your game carts. Also, SSDs aren't that cheap lately but an option for those who wish to pay that price for xbox/ps4, just like you buying your 128gb sd card, that is more expensive than most ssd drives.
Yea you are almost forced to buy a micro SD card at launch. DLC, patches, they add up and 32GB storage just isn't a lot, especially if you download any games at all which could happen since even at launch there are download only games.

Of course I'm buying one because of how small the storage is and I'm actually scared to get only a 64GB because who knows how much of a pain it would be re-download games if I decide to go bigger at a later date because Nintendo still has chosen to not talk about any online aspects of its soon to be released console.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,542
100
91
32GB is hardly pathetic, it's pretty much industry standard. Even high end $600 phones typically start at 32GB, and with those you don't have the option to purchase apps on cartridges. I'd rather pay $300 for a switch and $60 for a 128GB sd than pay $350 for a switch with 128GB of base storage.
No longer... the new basic is now 64 GB. 32 GB is on transition to being the entry standard.

Sadly the high end phones are the entry standard on storage. Unless Apple starts to move to 64 GB, 256 and 512 GB.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
315
126
So the leaked UI clearly shows that the Switch can be setup and work without the dock whatsoever. It is definitely a portable system no matter how Nintendo chooses to dance around the 3DS's grave. That makes me very happy because I didn't want Nintendo to gimp it's portability just to appease a marketing angle. I am so happy they went upscale portable instead of creating another low resolution DS sequel. The resolution is why I could never love the 3DS.

Seeing as how they aren't selling docks until late April for some reason I think someone could easily have a $200-$250 portable-only Switch after dumping the dock on EBay if they wanted. A "hybrid" system it is not, it is an expensive portable console with an expensive HDMI out dongle basically. Nintendo's home console line is dead, and the "gimmick" for its new portable is it can play games more graphically intense than any previous Nintendo home console. To me that beats 3D or dual screen or VR or all the other previous portable gimmicks since the original Gameboy's gimmick of being portable. But to sell that concept they are obviously trying to frame it as a home console too to force people to recognize what they did (and to justify game and console prices).

Also if anyone cares Bestbuy.com has a $25 off $100 Visa Checkout coupon. I got a charging dock almost for free after using that coupon to preorder one, a pro controller and a $1 iPhone case.
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
315
126
For such a portable system, you're going to need to bring along all your game carts. Also, SSDs aren't that cheap lately but an option for those who wish to pay that price for xbox/ps4, just like you buying your 128gb sd card, that is more expensive than most ssd drives.
Let's not jump to hyperbole here. You don't have to carry ALL your game carts, and the ones you want to carry are small and can fit in a slot made for them in almost every Switch case they are selling. Plus a decent 128GB MicroSD is $40, most SSDs (especially 128GB+ ones) are more than that.

Yes microsd or any solid state storage is more expensive than hard drives and game carts require more effort than digital only games. But those are the obvious sacrifices for a portable console. I just wish Nintendo made it a better portable (like 64GB built in or analog triggers on the Joycons) but I am willing to pay the price for what it is. Honestly I think it is a great time for cartridges to make a comeback- they can be made cheaply in large sizes and can mitigate game install wait times. It's like the revenge of the N64.

I have a 64GB microsd I have lying around that I plan to use because I have it and I plan to go mostly physical to take advantage of the Prime discount. Honestly someone going digital only could still buy a cheaper 256GB Samsung Microsd from people that got free ones in the Note 7 disaster on EBay. I see them for sub $100 all the time.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,049
468
126
So the leaked UI clearly shows that the Switch can be setup and work without the dock whatsoever. It is definitely a portable system no matter how Nintendo chooses to dance around the 3DS's grave. That makes me very happy because I didn't want Nintendo to gimp it's portability just to appease a marketing angle. I am so happy they went upscale portable instead of creating another low resolution DS sequel. The resolution is why I could never love the 3DS.

Seeing as how they aren't selling docks until late April for some reason I think someone could easily have a $200-$250 portable-only Switch after dumping the dock on EBay if they wanted. A "hybrid" system it is not, it is an expensive portable console with an expensive HDMI out dongle basically. Nintendo's home console line is dead, and the "gimmick" for its new portable is it can play games more graphically intense than any previous Nintendo home console. To me that beats 3D or dual screen or VR or all the other previous portable gimmicks since the original Gameboy's gimmick of being portable. But to sell that concept they are obviously trying to frame it as a home console too to force people to recognize what they did (and to justify game and console prices).

Also if anyone cares Bestbuy.com has a $25 off $100 Visa Checkout coupon. I got a charging dock almost for free after using that coupon to preorder one, a pro controller and a $1 iPhone case.
Unfortunately they are marketing it as a home console first. If they marketed it as the next great portable it would be awesome but as it sits you have to compare it to a PS4/Xbox One and that's part of what hurts it. It's too much of a compromise in both areas since they wanted it to do both. They couldn't make this a portable because it'd kill the 3DS which is the only thing that has been making them money and it's still printing money to this day for them.
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
315
126
Unfortunately they are marketing it as a home console first. If they marketed it as the next great portable it would be awesome but as it sits you have to compare it to a PS4/Xbox One and that's part of what hurts it. It's too much of a compromise in both areas since they wanted it to do both. They couldn't make this a portable because it'd kill the 3DS which is the only thing that has been making them money and it's still printing money to this day for them.
Yeah that is unfortunate and means early success could count for a lot. Nintendo needs proof via early sales it can move past the 3DS as well to switch the marketing to be portable focused. Well that and the willingness of the Pokémon company (who are also looking at sales) to announce a mainline Switch Pokémon game.

The marketing could turn in a single E3, but I agree right now they are playing up the wrong angles in a desperate attempt to over-justify console cost and AAA game price. There is some focus on portable aspects but they refuse to admit the Switch is meant to be a single console platform for them even though it is obvious. It is frustrating for sure.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
No longer... the new basic is now 64 GB. 32 GB is on transition to being the entry standard.

Sadly the high end phones are the entry standard on storage. Unless Apple starts to move to 64 GB, 256 and 512 GB.
If it bothers you that much, you can get a 64GB sdcard for $16.
 

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