Good Series of Articles: Stories of the American Economy, Makes you grateful for all you have

tnitsuj

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May 22, 2003
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From the Washington Post

washingtonpost.com

Former Lawyer's Job Hopes Ride Ether of E-Mail

By David Finkel
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 29, 2003; Page A01

First in a series of occasional articles

NEWARK, Ohio

Monday begins with good news, exactly the opposite of what Stuart Adkins has come to expect.

"Congratulations," the e-mail Adkins is reading starts off, and that first word alone is enough to flood him with an emotion he hasn't felt in nearly two years. Later, he will describe it. "Jubilation," he will say. But for now, he reads what comes next -- "on successfully advancing to Level 2 of the Trade Chief Assessment" -- and sits, just sits, overcome.

A 38-year-old single man, Adkins represents what in Washington is the political issue of what to do about the more than 9 million Americans who are either jobless or underemployed and an economy that has been described as "slow" and "adrift." In Newark, Ohio, though, Adkins is simply one of the sadder stories around.

Once a lawyer, he lost his job in June 2001 when his company downsized because of the worsening economy, and has seen his life collapse. He has exhausted his savings and retirement. He had to sell his house and the 40 acres he lived on and everything else he owned except a car, a bed, two chairs, a laptop computer and a TV. It took 18 months to find the part-time job he has now, which, to add to the sting, is at the local unemployment office helping people find jobs. He works in a cubicle that belongs to a woman on extended sick leave. The family pictures are hers. The decorations are hers. The bottle of water is his, and the day planner, and that's it. That's what two years have brought.

But now comes word that, for the first time in hundreds of attempts, Adkins has made it to the second round for a job, a permanent, full-time position with the state, and after reading the e-mail, he goes to tell his supervisor, Patty Ernest, who is so happy for him that she comes around from her desk and gives him a hug.

"Poor Stuart," she says after he has returned to his cubicle. "He's been through it, I'll tell you that much."

He rereads the e-mail. He takes in the word congratulations, and then reads the part telling him what he needs to do next.

"Part 2 is a written assignment," it says. "Please respond by 12:00 noon on Thursday."
'This Is Bad as It's Been'

The middle of America: That's where Stuart Adkins can be found, and why what has happened to him has a larger meaning as the economy continues to stagnate and the unemployment rate continues to rise. His is not the story of someone at the extremes of the American economy, such as Yuma, Ariz., where the unemployment rate is 21.8 percent. Adkins lives in a place where the local unemployment rate is 6 percent, in a state with a 6.1 percent unemployment rate, in a nation with a 6.1 percent unemployment rate. The middle, in other words, which is best seen not through statistics, but by coming here and looking around.

With a countywide population of 150,000, it is a place somewhere between big and small, defined neither by the poverty of southern Ohio Appalachia nor of northern Ohio's industrial rust. The county's Web page boasts that it is "the seventeenth largest and the seventeenth fastest growing county in Ohio." The workforce is blue-collar and white-collar. The downtown is dominated by a courthouse shaded by maple trees, and the main street through town has that most American of addresses, Main Street.

This is where Adkins works, at 144 W. Main Street, in a plain brick building that has been busier these past months than in years. The same has been true in other parts of Newark's social services net. The Salvation Army's emergency shelter has been running at 95 percent occupancy this year; three years ago, before the recession, it was at 73 percent. Meanwhile, at the Licking County administration building, more than 500 people hoping for housing assistance stood in line in early June for as long as five hours to get on a two-year waiting list. Meanwhile, the food pantry handed out 1,497 boxes of emergency rations in May, more than double the number handed out in pre-recession May 2000.

"This is bad as it's been," Ernest, who has been with the Ohio Department of Job & Family Services for 20 years, says as Thursday begins. She looks around at the people waiting for help, either with unemployment benefits or with job possibilities on which they need more information. "These are people affected by the politics. These are the statistics," she says of them. "This is the ground level. This is where you're actually seeing what it means when people say this is a slow economy."

As usual, the first car was in the parking lot before the doors were unlocked at 8 a.m. This day, it was a Ford Taurus wagon with no hubcaps and three kids in the back. At 7:55 the phones started in, and by the time Adkins reached his cubicle, the third one on the right, the one with the box of tissues for those who will need tissues, one line was holding and people were coming in the doors.

"Stuart speaking. May I help you?" Adkins says now to the caller who's been holding, a woman named Barbara who is looking for a job. Then it's another caller, and another, and then he hangs up and rubs his eyes.

"I'm a little tired this morning," he says.

He was up late. It was the writing assignment. Which is due in 3 hours and 20 minutes.

He takes another call.

"I know you're an excellent salesperson. . . . The only thing I have is someone to sell mobile storage units. . . . You'd be interested?"

He started the first question after dinner, he says. "You have been chosen as the chief of the trade section. . . . What specific action items would you wish to accomplish during your first week on the job?" That's the job title: chief. It would be with the Ohio Department of Job & Family Services, which is opening a new division to help the unemployed whose jobs go overseas. The first round was an interview, and he knew he did well, because why wouldn't he? He is a lawyer. He has been a human resources manager. He has been unemployed, and he has worked in an unemployment office.

"Good morning. Thank you for calling. Stuart speaking."

For some reason, though, the answers weren't coming, he continues, so he turned on the TV, and by the time he turned it off it was 11, and by the time he finished the sixth and final answer it was 3 a.m.

"Stuart, you have an intake," says the receptionist.

But it all worked out, he says, because as he was answering the last question, about the problem of a low-performing staffer ("Address it as we need to attack the production issue, not the producer"), he knew, absolutely knew, he had nailed all six questions.

"I was on a roll," he says. "It just poured out of me."

And so at 8:44 a.m., with only the slightest of hesitation, he sends in his answers.

And then welcomes into his cubicle an unemployed man named Richard, who wants details about a job listing.

"Nine to 10 dollars an hour," Adkins says, reading from his computer. "It's fast-paced, hard-working, must be able to speak, read and write English, heavy lifting."

And toward noon checks to see if his e-mail has been received. It has.

And then welcomes into his cubicle an unemployed woman named Cathleen, whose nine-month job search has come down to a listing she holds folded in her hand.

"You would be vacuuming up Owens Corning industrial waste," he says, reading from the computer.

"So it's like vacuuming up that waste junk?" she says, so crestfallen that he wonders whether to tell her about his own search, and his period of depression, and his weight gain, and the exercise weights he is wearing on each ankle at this very moment as he waits to find out about a job he is surer by the minute will be his.

And then, at 5, checks his e-mail one last time.

"Nothing yet," he says.
'Something Will Come Along'

There is nothing Friday, either.

And now, on Monday, there is hardly time to check because Monday at the unemployment office is always the busiest day. "In one day I had 82 unemployment claims I had to process," Adkins says of a previous Monday, "Normally this time of year, that's what we would have for a whole week."

"Position will require long standing periods in all types of weather; $7.70 an hour," he tells one person asking about a job.

"Power washing homes, fences; $10.20 an hour," he tells another.

"Cannot be afraid of heights; $8 an hour," he tells another.

These are the jobs available in the world of 6 percent unemployment. They are not about careers. They are not about fulfillment. They are just jobs.

"How can I help you?" Adkins says now to a man named Shawn Allen, who has been out of work since May 2002 and is wondering if there's a way to extend his unemployment benefits, which have been his only income and ran out months ago. A week before, they had spoken by phone. "I know what you're experiencing," Adkins had said to him then. "Hang in there. Something will come along."

But nothing is coming along, Allen says now, face to face with Adkins. "A solid year and a month," he says, and Adkins nods, knowing exactly how a year and a month can feel.

" 'Get your toolbox,' " Allen says of the way he learned of his layoff from an industrial plant after eight years. "No 'sorry,' no explanation, no questions, just goodbye."

"What's going on?" was what Adkins, who was general counsel to a firm that installed displays in stores such as Wal-Mart, had asked when he was summoned by the owner as the recession began to take hold in the retail sector. "You know what's going on," the chief financial officer had answered, and just like that Adkins did know.

"Forty thousand, with overtime," Allen says of what he was making.

Eighty thousand, Adkins doesn't say.

"Sixty résumés," Allen says of how many he has sent out.

Three hundred-fifty, all over the country, is Adkins's total so far.

"Fast food, unstable small companies unable to provide benefits, no long-term employment opportunities," Allen says of the only jobs available.

Which reminds Adkins of his own recurring nightmare of what he'd be saying for the rest of his life: "Would you like fries with that?"

"You can only go so far on nothing," Allen says, getting up to leave. "I'm on the edge of struggling" -- and there's something about that phrase that reminds Adkins of a day last August when he was well past that edge and down to begging someone for a job.

He had been out of work 14 months. His unemployment benefits had long run out. His savings were gone. His retirement account was gone. Three-hundred-fifty résumés. Three responses. Zero jobs. Depression. Overeating. Thirty pounds. In 14 months, he says, he had gone from someone who would accept only a legal position, to someone who swallowed his pride and said he was willing to work for the lowly sum of $25 an hour, to someone willing to take any full-time job, to someone trying to make a skeptical woman at a temporary agency understand that a one-time lawyer would gladly take anything she had.

"I have no money, and I need food," he said that day. "So you give me anything you can."

"So you just need some cash," the woman said.

"Exactly," he said. "Cash."

"Well," the woman said, "we can do that," and soon after he had his first paying job since his layoff.

It was five days, at $8 an hour, in a distribution center. He opened boxes. He took out underwear. He sorted the underwear into piles. "I wasn't going to screw it up," he says of how diligently he did this, hoping that he would be asked back for a second week.

He wasn't.

A week later, though, he got another assignment, also for five days at $8 an hour, this time assembling cardboard boxes.

"Every day I went in, I'd hope they would say, 'You've done well. Now we're going to put you on the line full time.' "

They didn't.

Then came a third assignment: several weeks in a musty storage shed, cataloging the old records of a physician.

And then came nothing until November, when he was informed that a job he had applied for several months earlier -- part time, 1,040 hours maximum per year, no benefits, no guarantees, official title: Intermittent -- was his.

"My whole family was ecstatic," Adkins says, especially his mother, who'd had to give him money so he could buy glasses, which made him feel that much worse. "You get in there and show them what you can do!" she told him.

Which since Dec. 16, his starting date, he has been trying to do, taking on each day as if being an intermittent in the third cubicle on the right on Main Street in Newark, Ohio, is the best job a person could get.

Into the cubicle comes Travis Cooper, who says of the employment situation, "It's scary. Especially when you have marketable skills and can't find anything." Adkins helps him with his questions, and quickly checks his e-mail when Cooper leaves.

In comes Dick Dudgeon, who says he got his 30-year award from Owens Corning before he was laid off, only to be brought back now and then for half the pay, "no benefits" and "no vacation."

Adkins checks his e-mail again.

In comes Dale Modesitt, 27 years at a company called Tectum Inc. until being laid off in March, inquiring about a bakery job that pays $8.36 an hour.

"You don't want to be here around Christmas," Adkins says after Modesitt leaves, checking again, "because it just rips your heart out."

Nothing.

In comes Rick Cantrell, 39, to see about a program that would pay for him to go to trade school. He sits in another cubicle, but Adkins recognizes him because they know each other slightly, not from the unemployment office, but because the seven acres Cantrell lives on is just down the road from the 40 acres Adkins lived on until November.

"A beautiful place," Cantrell says of Adkins's property. He remembers the barn Adkins put up after buying it in 1999, and the pond Adkins put in, and the fencing Adkins built himself, and the quarter horses he would see sometimes running around Adkins's fields, nine in all. "There was nothing ever wrong with the place," Cantrell says. "It was immaculate."

He remembers, too, the day last November when Adkins, selling the place, had an auction. He didn't go, but he imagines if he had he would have seen a man at a low point of his life.
'Selling It for Next to Nothing'

"I was extremely arrogant," Adkins says. "If I went by somebody without a job, it was, 'Hey, loser.' "

It is Monday night now -- still no word -- and Adkins is describing who he was on the day before he lost his job.

"In business, I was a bastard. My way or the highway. It was all hardball. Everything was money-driven.

"Work hard, set your goal, attain your goal, move on to the next goal, that was life. From goal to goal to goal. I was invincible. I'd never failed."

By the day of the auction, though, he was convinced he would never succeed again.

Item after item, there went his life. His farm equipment. His truck. His furniture.

"Not just having to sell it," he says, "but selling it for next to nothing."

On top of that, the weather couldn't have been worse.

"Rain. Snow. Sleet. Wind. You thought the whole universe was against you."

Even worse, the weather kept his mother and sister from coming, which meant they couldn't help him fill a contractual obligation of the auction to sell food to those in attendance, which meant that was how Adkins spent his last hours on his property.

"On the porch, selling hot dogs," he says. "It was pathetic."

And then came the very worst part: taking the bed, two chairs, TV, clothes and a few boxes of personal possessions and moving into a friend's vacant bedroom, where he has been since.

It is where he wrote the answers to the questions, on a laptop with a keyboard still sticky from those weeks doing inventory in the musty shed.

It is where he will go this night, and where he felt so lonely on Dec. 15 before his first day at the unemployment office, and where he was a few weeks later when he first had the thought his life had taken a turn for the better.

"You helped me the other day, and I've got another problem," someone had said at the unemployment office that day. That was it. That was the transaction. But thinking about it later in the solitude of his little room, Adkins says, he thought: "This is it. This is what I want to do."

Meaning:

"I am fulfilled in this job more than I ever have been in my life," he says. "I am helping people get through a situation I myself have been through. That's the key. I used to put people in the situation I was in and didn't care how they dealt with it. Now how ironic is it that the thing happened to me? So who better to fix the situation than someone who can pay it forward? I can't fix what I did to people. But I can pay it forward."

That's why he is so confident about getting the job, he says, even though it's been four days and 10 hours and he hasn't heard a word.

"It's as if this was all meant to be."

Or as he will say the next day to a woman named Christy who has been unemployed since the fall, "Everything works out for the best."

Or as he will say the day after that to a woman named Jennie who was just laid off from her job at a hospice, "Hang in there."

It will go on like this for 11 days in all, until he gets his answer about the job. It will come not by e-mail, but in a thin letter of rejection.

He will read it.

He will rip it in half.

He will feed it through a shredder.

That's what's to come, along with a new report that the unemployment rate has edged up again.

But on this Monday night, Adkins is still filled with the jubilation of seeing the word "Congratulations." "I'll be devastated," he says, if he doesn't get the job, but he is sure that's not going to happen.

"I'm good," he says.

"I'm good," he repeats.

"You know my honest opinion? I've got the job. This is my job. Everything is falling into place."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Capitalism and competition are what make America strong. Lawyers folding boxes for a few bucks an hour keeps labor on its toes. Can you imagine if we had a socialistic system where we took care of each other and there wasn't all this fear. People wouldn't do anything to stay alive and goods would cost more. Imagine how many Chinese would kill him for his box folding job. He's lucky. During the depression the socialists nearly ruined America. People got so desperate the actually started to think. Billions of dollars have been spent since erasing all traces of that dream. Welcome to the New American Century and the rule of I've got mine. Amy idea what a deal was had by those who bought this guys life.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
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The price of cradle to grave security is loss of liberty. Still, America is slowly migrating toward socialism (or maybe fascism we'll see). It's not something that can happen overnight. Too shocking would be the change were it to be instant.

But, the monkey-wrench in this plan is the Accounting that must take place soon where America discovers its government has cooked the books far more than Enron could have ever dreamed of doing. We're biding the time until some future President to appear on the Toob and say, "My fellow Americans, I'm sad to report the government is bankrupt".

You can only print and borrow so much money to cover huge spending increases. You can only hide the financial problems of social security and medicare for so long. IMO Bush in 3 years has easily outspent what Gore would have spent in 8 years. It's utterly shameful.

I don't know where it ends but with every ending there is a new beginning.
 

Harabecw

Senior member
Apr 28, 2003
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I always think about how people so easily talk about "I want another baby" and never think that that baby might have no job because his brother took it.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Meanwhile back in Austin, there were four "attorney wanted" positions listed in the local newspaper during the past two days alone. HotJobs has 188 "attorney wanted" positions listed nationwide for June 29th.
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
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but the more kids single moms have the more money the government gives them.
Its hard to get a slow economy back on its feet. Our econom is still strong its just that americans are spolied and used to it being excellent.

At any rate we could point fingers and both republicans and democrats but its really no ones fault. Companies are overtaxed first of all. secondly the last couple of years has shown many bankrupcies. Kmart, airlines,enron etc... lots of people lose their jobs this way, and illegal immigration really screws things up. look at california they went from a surpuls to a 26 bil dollar debt, bad news
 

LeeTJ

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Jan 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: AEB
but the more kids single moms have the more money the government gives them.
Its hard to get a slow economy back on its feet. Our econom is still strong its just that americans are spolied and used to it being excellent.

At any rate we could point fingers and both republicans and democrats but its really no ones fault. Companies are overtaxed first of all. secondly the last couple of years has shown many bankrupcies. Kmart, airlines,enron etc... lots of people lose their jobs this way, and illegal immigration really screws things up. look at california they went from a surpuls to a 26 bil dollar debt, bad news

agreed, people bitching and moaning about how bad the economy is must not have lived thru the same late 80's and mid 70's that i lived thru. this is the mildest economic "downturn" i've ever experienced, if not for the WTC tragedy, we might have actually achieved the soft landing that we wanted.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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It seems that the US is not the only country currently in an economic slump.

Schroeder Announces Accelerated Tax Cuts

BERLIN - Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on Sunday announced a plan to bring forward tax cuts worth about $20.6 billion, a move that could inject new life into Europe's largest economy

This government is improving the framework for more growth in Germany," Schroeder said. "It's the signal that we want to send to consumers and business."

Germany's economy is in its third year of near-zero growth, and actually shrank 0.2 percent in the first quarter, helping to push unemployment to over 10 percent.

The income tax reduction was supposed to be the last part of a 2001-2005 tax relief plan. With a $8 billion cut already slated for 2004, Schroeder has said the last two steps could be combined if plans to shake up the job market and trim the welfare state also are implemented.
To bring many of those reforms, including the early tax cut, into force, Schroeder will need the cooperation of the mainly conservative opposition, which controls the upper house of parliament.
Conservative leaders have said they are willing to cooperate with the government to implement law changes designed to boost the economy, but they have cast doubt on how the tax plan can be paid for. "

German Government 04 Bdgt Sees 1.2% Spending Rise To EUR251.2 Billion

...
The 2004 federal budget signals that Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's center- left government places more emphasis on stimulating economic growth than implementing European Union (news - web sites) (News - Websites) budget rules.

Europe's largest economy is barely growing. Gross domestic product growth was 0.2% last year and 0.6% in 2001.

"A decisive consolidation policy has been postponed year by year," said Commerzbank economist Eckart Tuchtfeld. "It's become harder for Germany to meet the E.U.'s deficit limit next year."

Germany isn't alone. France is also pursuing tax cuts aimed at boosting growth despite criticism from the European Commission "

Limping EU economy falls further behind US

Just as the US economy shows signs of a bounce following the Iraq conflict, Europe's appears headed for the quicksand.

Figures published over the past week made gloomy reading for optimists hopeful for a sign of recovery in the euro zone's biggest economies.

In recession-hit Germany, the biggest of the 12 single-currency members, a total of 9,747 companies went bust in the three months of this year, a rise of 9.4 percent from the same period of 2002.

Business morale is now at its lowest level since the last time Germany was in recession, in 1993, according to the DIHK federation of chambers of commerce.

In France, the second-biggest euro economy, the official statistics institute INSEE predicted that 2003 growth would be the lowest in 10 years at just 0.8 percent.

On the other side of the Atlantic, meanwhile, the Conference Board (news - web sites)'s index of leading economic indicators (news - web sites), which aims to predict activity in the coming months, rose 1.0 percent in May -- the biggest increase since December 2001.

Several factors have combined to depress the euroland economy in recent weeks: business and consumer confidence has yet to pick up after the Iraq war and the rise of the euro has damaged export prospects.

Unemployment shows little sign of easing, dealing a further blow to fragile consumer spending. France expects a jobless rate of 9.6 percent by the end of the year. The number of Germans out of work is set to top five million.
..."

Yes, it could be worse, I could live in France or Germany.

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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392
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Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile back in Austin, there were four "attorney wanted" positions listed in the local newspaper during the past two days alone. HotJobs has 188 "attorney wanted" positions listed nationwide for June 29th.

And he may have applied for every single one of them. The problem is that there are usually hundreds of applicants for every vacant position. I've heard that some (many?) HR departments have stopped sending routine application acknowledgments because of the cost in postage and manpower.

I've been trying to help several of my (former-) employees from a past employer find jobs in IT. They were all "down-sized" in two waves, some seven months ago, some a few weeks ago. It is a brutal market.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile back in Austin, there were four "attorney wanted" positions listed in the local newspaper during the past two days alone. HotJobs has 188 "attorney wanted" positions listed nationwide for June 29th.

And he may have applied for every single one of them. The problem is that there are usually hundreds of applicants for every vacant position. I've heard that some (many?) HR departments have stopped sending routine application acknowledgments because of the cost in postage and manpower.

I've been trying to help several of my (former-) employees from a past employer find jobs in IT. They were all "down-sized" in two waves, some seven months ago, some a few weeks ago. It is a brutal market.
The amount of brutality depends upon what one seeks, where one seeks it and how much one is willing to accept. "hundreds of applicants" depends upon the position sought. I see jobs all the time with repeat listings on search boards and in newspapers every week. And no, not Walmart or McD's either. Is Stuart willing to relocate? How far? The article doesn't say. To whom did he submit resumes to? Were they tailored accordingly? Again the article doesn't say. Are there some lingering ghosts in his closet? We don't know, but overeating certainly can't help the situation, can it? Did he burn some bridges in Newark, OH while serving as a corporate attorney which should have been left standing? Again, we don't know, although in a rust-belt county with a population of 150,000 and a city of 47,000, I personally wouldn't expect miracles. Mr. Adkins' case is the exception, not the rule. For if it were the rule, the economy would have totally collapsed long ago.

Indeed, IT was hit hard for a number of reasons. For starters, there were a lot of unqualified, underexperienced, overpaid tourists in the industry who shouldn't have been there in the first place. Then everybody, including their brother, sister and ex-husband, decided that: "Hey, IT is such a wonderful concept. We can sit on our ass and surf the net while adding a user account, coding a database or webpage. IT is so 'chic' that we'll take advantage of this fantastic new technology. Let's all go to school for it!" Unfortunately, the terms diversification or mobility aren't in some of their respective dictionaries. Anyway, after foreign outsourcing, oversaturation, economy and experience are taken into consideration, the debate surrounding the inherent shortcomings of IT can go on for days.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: burnedout
The amount of brutality depends upon what one seeks, where one seeks it and how much one is willing to accept. "hundreds of applicants" depends upon the position sought. I see jobs all the time with repeat listings on search boards and in newspapers every week. And no, not Walmart or McD's either. Is Stuart willing to relocate? How far? The article doesn't say. To whom did he submit resumes to? Were they tailored accordingly? Again the article doesn't say. Are there some lingering ghosts in his closet? We don't know, but overeating certainly can't help the situation, can it? Did he burn some bridges in Newark, OH while serving as a corporate attorney which should have been left standing? Again, we don't know, although in a rust-belt county with a population of 150,000 and a city of 47,000, I personally wouldn't expect miracles. Mr. Adkins' case is the exception, not the rule. For if it were the rule, the economy would have totally collapsed long ago.

Indeed, IT was hit hard for a number of reasons. For starters, there were a lot of unqualified, underexperienced, overpaid tourists in the industry who shouldn't have been there in the first place. Then everybody, including their brother, sister and ex-husband, decided that: "Hey, IT is such a wonderful concept. We can sit on our ass and surf the net while adding a user account, coding a database or webpage. IT is so 'chic' that we'll take advantage of this fantastic new technology. Let's all go to school for it!" Unfortunately, the terms diversification or mobility aren't in some of their respective dictionaries. Anyway, after foreign outsourcing, oversaturation, economy and experience are taken into consideration, the debate surrounding the inherent shortcomings of IT can go on for days.
I'm curious. What is your basis for making these statements?

As for Stuart personally, who knows what the whole story is. You are right, there may be baggage in his past that is hurting his job search. Maybe he has an awful resume. Maybe his salary requirements were unrealistic -- though only a fool would include salary information as part of his initial contact. Your comment about overeating was, frankly, dumb. You can't tell a person's weight from his resume. (For that matter, you usually can't tell anything about burned bridges from a resume either.) If he sent 350 resumes and only got three responses, we can safely conclude there is a problem other than his weight or other spurious considerations.

We can only speculate about Stuart, but he is not alone. I've seen his same story many times in the last year. It may be more the rule than the exception (and no, that doesn't have anything to do with the economy collapsing or not).

Re. your other comments, the fact that a given job ad runs repeatedly doesn't mean they aren't being flooded with applicants. I know for a fact that many companies are flat-out incompetent in their recruiting processes, running ads for positions they aren't ready to fill, running ads for positions they have already filled, allowing stacks of resumes to accumulate dust because either HR or the hiring manager hasn't taken time to look at them yet, or stupidly ignoring well-qualified candidates because they are fixated on some immaterial detail instead of considering overall qualifications. If you've never worked on the hiring side of the desk, you would be appalled at how poorly some companies and some managers fill positions.

You also must differentiate between ads from actual employers vs. ads from recruiters. Many recruiters constantly troll for resumes, posting ads for specific skill sets whether they have matching positions or not. They do this to build and maintain a database of current resumes, just in case they get a job requisition that matches. Even when they are advertising for specific positions, they are often out of touch with the actual employer. The employer may have already filled the position, for example, or the employer may not be interested in working with that recruiter, or even with any recruiters. The recruiters will run the ad anyway, hoping to get such an outstanding candidate that they can get their foot in the door at the target company.

Your comments about IT are accurate in many cases, but they do not explain the current situation. I have been in IT almost 25 years. IT hiring cycles from hot to cold just like the rest of the economy. I have never seen the market as tight as it is right now. In past downturns, I've seen the IT ads in the Sunday paper drop to maybe a couple of pages. At its worst last winter, it dropped to just three or four ads. It is picking up again now, but it's still less than one page. That's a bleak market even for experienced and dedicated IT pros.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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I'm curious. What is your basis for making these statements?
You don't screw the future. The future screws you.

As for Stuart personally, who knows what the whole story is. You are right, there may be baggage in his past that is hurting his job search. Maybe he has an awful resume. Maybe his salary requirements were unrealistic -- though only a fool would include salary information as part of his initial contact. Your comment about overeating was, frankly, dumb. You can't tell a person's weight from his resume. (For that matter, you usually can't tell anything about burned bridges from a resume either.) If he sent 350 resumes and only got three responses, we can safely conclude there is a problem other than his weight or other spurious considerations.
We don't know the full story on Stuart. Other than that, it is just another human interest story for Sunday readers.

We can only speculate about Stuart, but he is not alone. I've seen his same story many times in the last year. It may be more the rule than the exception (and no, that doesn't have anything to do with the economy collapsing or not).
Depends upon the industry. Science, math and special ed teachers along with nurses are in high demand with proportionally the same hiring bonuses that IT enjoyed 3-4 years ago.

Re. your other comments, the fact that a given job ad runs repeatedly doesn't mean they aren't being flooded with applicants. I know for a fact that many companies are flat-out incompetent in their recruiting processes, running ads for positions they aren't ready to fill, running ads for positions they have already filled, allowing stacks of resumes to accumulate dust because either HR or the hiring manager hasn't taken time to look at them yet, or stupidly ignoring well-qualified candidates because they are fixated on some immaterial detail instead of considering overall qualifications. If you've never worked on the hiring side of the desk, you would be appalled at how poorly some companies and some managers fill positions.
A tougher job market exists, although not as tough as the late 70s, early 80s era. Yes, one of my present functions also deals with the hiring of personnel. The object is to hire the most qualified and most suited candidate for a given position.

You also must differentiate between ads from actual employers vs. ads from recruiters. Many recruiters constantly troll for resumes, posting ads for specific skill sets whether they have matching positions or not. They do this to build and maintain a database of current resumes, just in case they get a job requisition that matches. Even when they are advertising for specific positions, they are often out of touch with the actual employer. The employer may have already filled the position, for example, or the employer may not be interested in working with that recruiter, or even with any recruiters. The recruiters will run the ad anyway, hoping to get such an outstanding candidate that they can get their foot in the door at the target company.
A tactic in use by recruiters for years. Some people call it networking.

Your comments about IT are accurate in many cases, but they do not explain the current situation. I have been in IT almost 25 years. IT hiring cycles from hot to cold just like the rest of the economy. I have never seen the market as tight as it is right now. In past downturns, I've seen the IT ads in the Sunday paper drop to maybe a couple of pages. At its worst last winter, it dropped to just three or four ads. It is picking up again now, but it's still less than one page. That's a bleak market even for experienced and dedicated IT pros.
This is what happens after a false economy is created by selling billion$ in equity of companies that return nil and quickly go bankrupt.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile back in Austin, there were four "attorney wanted" positions listed in the local newspaper during the past two days alone. HotJobs has 188 "attorney wanted" positions listed nationwide for June 29th.

And he may have applied for every single one of them. The problem is that there are usually hundreds of applicants for every vacant position. I've heard that some (many?) HR departments have stopped sending routine application acknowledgments because of the cost in postage and manpower.

I've been trying to help several of my (former-) employees from a past employer find jobs in IT. They were all "down-sized" in two waves, some seven months ago, some a few weeks ago. It is a brutal market.

And in a tight job market, you lower your salary expectations. A low paying job is better than no job.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,475
6,104
126
And in a tight job market, you lower your salary expectations.
-----------------------------------------
Exactly why Republicans don't ever want full employment where everybody can live, or any hope of assistance since it would be the same thing. It's called class war, how the employee class makes money on the backs of the destitute. A wonderfully artificially Darwinian system indeed. That is why the answer to class war is class war.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile back in Austin, there were four "attorney wanted" positions listed in the local newspaper during the past two days alone. HotJobs has 188 "attorney wanted" positions listed nationwide for June 29th.

And he may have applied for every single one of them. The problem is that there are usually hundreds of applicants for every vacant position. I've heard that some (many?) HR departments have stopped sending routine application acknowledgments because of the cost in postage and manpower.

I've been trying to help several of my (former-) employees from a past employer find jobs in IT. They were all "down-sized" in two waves, some seven months ago, some a few weeks ago. It is a brutal market.

And in a tight job market, you lower your salary expectations. A low paying job is better than no job.

This IMO is way too general.. for instance: A real hot shot may be worth more to a company during a tight market... the reason for the tight market is the question... Salary demands lowered may indicate what an individual may think of themselves compared to others in similar stead.. If you come to a company and are either underemployed or underpaid... I figure the relationship won't last long... so I'd not invest alot into that person...

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
I can't tell if you're actually interested in a discussion, or just making noise. If you want a discussion, you need to read and understand what the other person wrote; your comments mostly ignore what I said. If noise is your goal, I assume you're just another Bush fan-boy who rejects any notion that the economy sucks since that might reflect poorly on his worship.

Originally posted by: burnedout
The future screws you.
Huh? I asked about the basis for your comments, i.e., do you work in hiring somehow, do you have first-hand knowledge from your own job search, what? Your answer is nonsense.

We don't know the full story on Stuart. Other than that, it is just another human interest story for Sunday readers.
Agreed. That's what I said in the next paragraph.

Depends upon the industry. Science, math and special ed teachers along with nurses are in high demand with proportionally the same hiring bonuses that IT enjoyed 3-4 years ago.
Yes, there always seems to be strong demand for nurses. Teaching positions are lukewarm at best. Yes, it is harder to find people with appropriate credentials to teach science and math; they tend to go into industry jobs. On the other hand, schools are under tremendous budget pressure right now, and aren't hiring many new teachers. In any case, all of the careers you mention require special training and certifications; they aren't options for most people who need a job today.

A tougher job market exists, although not as tough as the late 70s, early 80s era. Yes, one of my present functions also deals with the hiring of personnel. The object is to hire the most qualified and most suited candidate for a given position.
I disagree. I've been in IT since the late 70's. Today's market is many times worse than it was then.

Your last sentence is obviously true, yet has nothing to do with the discussion.

You also must differentiate between ads from actual employers vs. ads from recruiters. Many recruiters constantly troll for resumes, posting ads for specific skill sets whether they have matching positions or not. They do this to build and maintain a database of current resumes, just in case they get a job requisition that matches. Even when they are advertising for specific positions, they are often out of touch with the actual employer. The employer may have already filled the position, for example, or the employer may not be interested in working with that recruiter, or even with any recruiters. The recruiters will run the ad anyway, hoping to get such an outstanding candidate that they can get their foot in the door at the target company.
A tactic in use by recruiters for years. Some people call it networking.
No, I don't believe anyone calls this "networking". This is called harvesting resumes, and it is a slimy tactic that creates an illusion of jobs. (Which was my point, which you ignored: seeing the same ad for weeks has zero to do with how many qualified people applied for the position. Job ad and job opening are two different things.)

Your comments about IT are accurate in many cases, but they do not explain the current situation. I have been in IT almost 25 years. IT hiring cycles from hot to cold just like the rest of the economy. I have never seen the market as tight as it is right now. In past downturns, I've seen the IT ads in the Sunday paper drop to maybe a couple of pages. At its worst last winter, it dropped to just three or four ads. It is picking up again now, but it's still less than one page. That's a bleak market even for experienced and dedicated IT pros.
This is what happens after a false economy is created by selling billion$ in equity of companies that return nil and quickly go bankrupt.
(1) They are indirectly linked at best. (2) We weren't discussing the merits of the dot-com boom/bust, we were talking about the job market. Whatever the causes may be, the fact is that today's job market is the pits, just like the economy.

Adkins' situation is more common than you suggest, and isn't necessarily due to extenuating circumstances unique to Adkins. Your implication that he must not be willing to compromise because you think there are plenty of attorney jobs open is unsupported. One of my beefs with the right is that they often blame the victim, claiming it's their own fault when people find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. It is often a cruel and ignorant lie used to rationalize their own greed and lack of concern for others.

 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
mos timportant thing to remember is there is a difference between a job and a carrer, now granted a lawyer shouldnt have to far to look but like previously stated we dont know teh situation. Keep in mind also that health care costs for employers just went up. Bush is playing politics agian instead of doing whats right, and i say this as a Bush supporter. sadly most politicans just play politics and its hurting the working people of america
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,475
6,104
126
Bowfinger: Adkins' situation is more common than you suggest, and isn't necessarily due to extenuating circumstances unique to Adkins. Your implication that he must not be willing to compromise because you think there are plenty of attorney jobs open is unsupported. One of my beefs with the right is that they often blame the victim, claiming it's their own fault when people find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. It is often a cruel and ignorant lie used to rationalize their own greed and lack of concern for others.
-----------------------
My personal take on it is that in a dog eat dog world, those who are eating use the eaten to pump up their lack of self esteem. You look down on others, blame the victim, because your own self hate is projected on them. It is a kind of sadism where you get to enjoy those suffering visibly from the hidden torment in your own soul. Thus do we create what we fear.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
I can't tell if you're actually interested in a discussion, or just making noise. If you want a discussion, you need to read and understand what the other person wrote; your comments mostly ignore what I said. If noise is your goal, I assume you're just another Bush fan-boy who rejects any notion that the economy sucks since that might reflect poorly on his worship.
So if reality-based ambiguity coupled with an agenda is your goal, then are we to assume you're another bleeding-heart, socialist liberal? But no, to answer the implied question and set the record straight, I'm a moderate who voted for Gore. I don't go around incessantly whining, ranting, raving, etc. about the fact that Bush is the President as some are so inclined to do here. Sound real familiar? It should.

Huh? I asked about the basis for your comments, i.e., do you work in hiring somehow, do you have first-hand knowledge from your own job search, what? Your answer is nonsense.
The reply was thus short, sweet and directly to the point: "The future screws you". WTF is so difficult to comprehend about the reply? One makes their own luck in life, rolls with the punches and plans their future accordingly. I am currently involved in the hiring of technical people along with numerous other duties. And yes, I have changed careers 3 times in 23 years.


Yes, there always seems to be strong demand for nurses. Teaching positions are lukewarm at best. Yes, it is harder to find people with appropriate credentials to teach science and math; they tend to go into industry jobs. On the other hand, schools are under tremendous budget pressure right now, and aren't hiring many new teachers. In any case, all of the careers you mention require special training and certifications; they aren't options for most people who need a job today.
The areas mentioned have been short of qualified personnel for years now and still are. We don't see potential workers flocking to those fields in droves like they do with others. In reality, its neither comfortable nor "cool" in the eyes of many to work with sick people or dumb kids because they are people. Not all schools are under "tremendous budget pressure" right now either, as you seem to suggest. There are many districts out there running deficits which nevertheless must hire those types of educators to meet requirements.

When one looks at available 'jobs' nationwide, the conclusion is that there are less higher paying positions now available than a scant three years ago. Well, of course! Yet there are jobs out there if one is willing to work, retrain, accept a lesser salary or relocate. No, the real problem is that too many folks are now too focused on one career path and therefore pay the price for lack of diversification.

No, I don't believe anyone calls this "networking". This is called harvesting resumes, and it is a slimy tactic that creates an illusion of jobs. (Which was my point, which you ignored: seeing the same ad for weeks has zero to do with how many qualified people applied for the position. Job ad and job opening are two different things.)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nearly everybody does it and job placement still results from the practice.

Went through this little drill over two years ago which explains why I've already received and declined 3 offers from headhunters this year alone. If people establish relationships with recruiters and HR people, exhibit patience and are persistent instead of sitting on their asses, things happen too. If things don't happen, find something else.


(1) They are indirectly linked at best. (2) We weren't discussing the merits of the dot-com boom/bust, we were talking about the job market. Whatever the causes may be, the fact is that today's job market is the pits, just like the economy.
Compared to three years ago, yes, the job market is "in the pits". Compared to 1979-1982, the overall job market is tremendously better now than back then. Nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise. However, a worse situation could materialize if service jobs continue going overseas.

Go back and re-read your own post also. You originally introduced IT into the discussion, did you not? I'm sorry to inform you of this, but the world does not revolve around IT.
The stated reply was simply a cause based on my experience here in Austin and elsewhere. The preceeding era was one of the most financially irresponsible, speculative periods in U.S. history. And no, it wasn't Clinton's fault either as some conservatives suggest, IMO. As previously mentioned, the debate relative to the causes of the last IT meltdown could go on for days.

Adkins' situation is more common than you suggest, and isn't necessarily due to extenuating circumstances unique to Adkins. Your implication that he must not be willing to compromise because you think there are plenty of attorney jobs open is unsupported. One of my beefs with the right is that they often blame the victim, claiming it's their own fault when people find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. It is often a cruel and ignorant lie used to rationalize their own greed and lack of concern for others.
Oh brother, the good old leftist, socialist rhetoric at work once again, eh Bowfinger? Sorry buddy, but did you know that we actually reside in a free-market economy driven by supply and demand in which one makes their own luck in life? This particular type of economy has existed in such fashion ever since I can remember.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: burnedout
[ ... ] to answer the implied question and set the record straight, I'm a moderate who voted for Gore.
Me too, but then I'm confused about why you keep missing the point.

Huh? I asked about the basis for your comments, i.e., do you work in hiring somehow, do you have first-hand knowledge from your own job search, what? Your answer is nonsense.
The reply was thus short, sweet and directly to the point: "The future screws you". WTF is so difficult to comprehend about the reply?
It's easy to comprehend the comment. It just has nothing to do with your qualification to comment on the current job market. My qualification is that I've been a hiring manager for about 15 years, and I have been actively trying to help former employees get jobs in today's market. Your qualification is apparently, "the future screws you."

I am currently involved in the hiring of technical people along with numerous other duties. And yes, I have changed careers 3 times in 23 years.
Ah ha! There is useful information that answers my question. Only took three tries.

[ comments re. teaching opportunities ]
But again, teaching positions require specific credentials. They might be a good choice for a career change, but they're not an option for most people who need to pay their bills today.

No, I don't believe anyone calls this "networking". This is called harvesting resumes, and it is a slimy tactic that creates an illusion of jobs. (Which was my point, which you ignored: seeing the same ad for weeks has zero to do with how many qualified people applied for the position. Job ad and job opening are two different things.)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nearly everybody does it and job placement still results from the practice.
(1) It is still a slimy tactic. (2) You completely missed the point -- many of those 188 job ads you suggested for Mr. Adkins are probably not real jobs. That would be why he got so few responses.

If people establish relationships with recruiters and HR people, exhibit patience and are persistent instead of sitting on their asses, things happen too. If things don't happen, find something else.
So what's your basis for implying that Adkins was sitting on his ass? It sounds like he was doing the right things, yet contrary to your platitude, things weren't happening for him. You seem to be blaming Adkins for his situation, and dismissing the fact that there are way more job-seekers than there are jobs.

Go back and re-read your own post also. You originally introduced IT into the discussion, did you not? I'm sorry to inform you of this, but the world does not revolve around IT.
I mentioned IT in passing, commenting that I was helping former employees find IT jobs. You turned it into an issue: Indeed, IT was hit hard for a number of reasons. For starters, there were a lot of unqualified, underexperienced, overpaid tourists in the industry who shouldn't have been there in the first place. Then everybody, including their brother, sister and ex-husband, decided that: "Hey, IT is such a wonderful concept. We can sit on our ass and surf the net while adding a user account, coding a database or webpage. IT is so 'chic' that we'll take advantage of this fantastic new technology. Let's all go to school for it!" Unfortunately, the terms diversification or mobility aren't in some of their respective dictionaries. Anyway, after foreign outsourcing, oversaturation, economy and experience are taken into consideration, the debate surrounding the inherent shortcomings of IT can go on for days.

Adkins' situation is more common than you suggest, and isn't necessarily due to extenuating circumstances unique to Adkins. Your implication that he must not be willing to compromise because you think there are plenty of attorney jobs open is unsupported. One of my beefs with the right is that they often blame the victim, claiming it's their own fault when people find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. It is often a cruel and ignorant lie used to rationalize their own greed and lack of concern for others.
Oh brother, the good old leftist, socialist rhetoric at work once again, eh Bowfinger? Sorry buddy, but did you know that we actually reside in a free-market economy driven by supply and demand in which one makes their own luck in life? This particular type of economy has existed in such fashion ever since I can remember.
Blah, blah, blah. One can only guess why you felt it was necessary to twist my observation that the job market stinks into an anti-socialism diatribe that has nothing to do with my comments or the topic at hand.

You don't have to be a socialist to acknowledge that our "free-market economy" (which it isn't, but that's a different thread) sucks for job hunters right now. There is a whole spectrum of positions between "socialist" and an arrogant, heartless soul who is personally getting his, so he ignores or blames those who aren't as fortunate as he is. Your slurs re. Adkins are unwarranted.

 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Me too, but then I'm confused about why you keep missing the point.
You sir, are far from a moderate. Nearly every damn bit of your commentary is directed against the current administation, current economic environment or status-quo. The majority of your presented ideology equates to liberal-based socialism.

It's easy to comprehend the comment. It just has nothing to do with your qualification to comment on the current job market. My qualification is that I've been a hiring manager for about 15 years, and I have been actively trying to help former employees get jobs in today's market. Your qualification is apparently, "the future screws you."
Of course my answer is "the future screws you". Some of us were born in poverty and busted our damned asses in arriving at the point we are now. Some of us played the role of the proverbial ant in contrast to the grasshopper, thereby planning for uncertainties without all sorts of fancy education because we know there may not be a job tomorrow. Some of us don't depend on the supposed "system" and are willing to work for minimum wage. Your concept of a neatly ordered society as applicable to modern America is simply flawed. People are laid off and hired all the time. Get over it.

(1) It is still a slimy tactic. (2) You completely missed the point -- many of those 188 job ads you suggested for Mr. Adkins are probably not real jobs. That would be why he got so few responses.
Mr. Bowfinger: The 188 job ads mentioned were for June 29th, 2003. If you desire to provide a more definitive answer regarding Mr. Adkins status, then I advise you please contact him. Other than that, have a nice day.

So what's your basis for implying that Adkins was sitting on his ass? It sounds like he was doing the right things, yet contrary to your platitude, things weren't happening for him. You seem to be blaming Adkins for his situation, and dismissing the fact that there are way more job-seekers than there are jobs.
Oh brother, trying to once more turn the debate with notional concepts. At any rate, if there are way more job-seekers, than why are positions still advertised in trade journals, job sites, newspapers, etc? AND NOT JUST FROM RECRUITERS, BUT REAL FARKING COMPANIES? No, the current job market isn't comprised of all "slimy recruiters" as you so mistakenly imply.

I mentioned IT in passing, commenting that I was helping former employees find IT jobs. You turned it into an issue:
BULL!!!! You first transformed IT into an issue with personal comparisons to the historical number of positions available in your local newspaper.

Blah, blah, blah. One can only guess why you felt it was necessary to twist my observation that the job market stinks into an anti-socialism diatribe that has nothing to do with my comments or the topic at hand.
As if you didn't interject with an unsubstantiated attack of the right? But once more, I digress.

You don't have to be a socialist to acknowledge that our "free-market economy" (which it isn't, but that's a different thread) sucks for job hunters right now. There is a whole spectrum of positions between "socialist" and an arrogant, heartless soul who is personally getting his, so he ignores or blames those who aren't as fortunate as he is. Your slurs re. Adkins are unwarranted.
Based on the evidence presented, my "slurs re. Adkins", are realistic. He is a fat, depressed, underemployed lawyer presented in a Sunday human interest story. Months and months later, he still resides in the same little world searching for a job. No mobility. Not asked to stay on at two other formerly held positions after one week. Face it, Mr. Adkins has issues.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: burnedout
You sir, are far from a moderate. Nearly every damn bit of your commentary is directed against the current administation, current economic environment or status-quo. The majority of your presented ideology equates to liberal-based socialism.
Sorry my boy, but you're hopelessly clueless if you believe this. You're spending too much time OD'ing on Limbaugh. There are an infinite range of alternatives between mindlessly worshipping Bush-lite and "liberal-based socialism".

I believe in integrity and openness in government. I believe in fiscal restraint. I believe in a strong defense, but I also I believe in diplomacy first, military force as a last resort. I believe in law and order, but I also believe in the right to privacy. I believe in the Bill of Rights. I believe in a free-market economy with a reasonable level of oversight and regulation. I oppose excessive welfare programs, including most corporate welfare. I believe in limited government. I believe in treating people fairly, honestly, and with respect.

I believe that all of these ideals are quite moderate. I believe that the Bush administration has failed miserably in each of these areas.

I'm going to skip much of the rest of your crap. I've already addressed it two or three times. I won't continue to repeat myself just because you aren't able or willing to maintain a coherent discussion.

At any rate, if there are way more job-seekers, than why are positions still advertised in trade journals, job sites, newspapers, etc?
Duh.
rolleye.gif
Because some companies are still hiring some people, just not as many as are looking. It's simple math; get someone -- anyone -- to explain it to you.

I mentioned IT in passing, commenting that I was helping former employees find IT jobs. You turned it into an issue:
BULL!!!! You first transformed IT into an issue with personal comparisons to the historical number of positions available in your local newspaper.
Sorry, you are factually wrong. I mentioned it in passing, you gave the response I quoted. My comment re. the local paper came next. Go back and read the thread. All three posts are together, in sequence.

I accept your apology.

Based on the evidence presented, my "slurs re. Adkins", are realistic. He is a fat, depressed, underemployed lawyer presented in a Sunday human interest story. Months and months later, he still resides in the same little world searching for a job. No mobility. Not asked to stay on at two other formerly held positions after one week. Face it, Mr. Adkins has issues.
You have no clue one way or the other about Adkins. Your comments were ignorant, arrogant, and mean-spirited. One can only hope you find yourself in Adkins shoes someday. Perhaps it will teach you a little humility and compassion.

 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,865
0
0
My take on the whole thing: life will always suck for some people. In today's economy, it happens to be Mr. Adkins. Five years ago, when he was fully employed making 80 grand a year, someone else was in his same position. While our system of government is far from perfect, it is amung the best there is. This guy is looked upon as a downtrodden soul, crushed by the cruel economy. Yet, he has a laptop. He has a TV. He has a car. He has a roof over his head. How many billions of people is he better off than? 4, 5 billion? There will always be winners and losers, and it is my opinion that capitalism gives you the greatest amount winners possible. Look at how far we have come in the last few hundred years since capitalism became the dominant economic system in the western world. I think it's safe to say we are on the right track.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger

[remainder of Bowfinger's condescending, self-serving drivel snipped as a reciprocal jesture of goodwill.]

Your comments were ignorant, arrogant, and mean-spirited. One can only hope you find yourself in Adkins shoes someday. Perhaps it will teach you a little humility and compassion.
Been there, done that, walked in Mr. Adkin's shoes with nothing even remotely similar to his qualifications, and even got the T-Shirt many moons ago, Mr. Bowfinger. Please accept my appreciation for your kind words.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,475
6,104
126
Those of us who have studied life know that being dragged through the mud yourself doesn't phase the hard of heart. Many of those I know who grew up with nothing wouldn't give you spit.