I give another shout out to Canon for their i series. I think the i550 would fit the bill nicely. i850 if you want to do photos. And Mach is definetely correct, there is such a HUGE difference in ink quality (regarding the difference between OEM and cast off variations), it isn't funny.
My friends owned many lexmark and hp, they are paying through their nose on the inks
For cheap inks, nothing beats Canon/Epson (I prefer canon, because it's a tad quieter than the epsons I had before)
For cheap inks, nothing beats Canon/Epson (I prefer canon, because it's a tad quieter than the epsons I had before)
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 19
- 81
One problem with Epson printers - the printheads are integrated into the printer, and are fairly difficult to remove for cleaning should they really get clogged. This will also void the warranty. Buying a new printhead assembly may well cost more than one (or two) whole new printers. And as was mentioned in one other post, their newer cartridges come with a small circuit board, which determines when the cartridge is empty - if you just refill it, the cartridge tells the printer "I'm empty!" - you need a resetter to tell the chip "you're full, dumba$$." The only reason I see for having this chip is to discourage refilling; I think that the European Union has made this practice illegal. That'll never happen here I bet - too much political pressure (bribes) from corporations.
However, generic ink tanks for Epson printers can run as low as $5, and some of the generic ones make refilling easy - the one set I've got for my old Epson 600, which only prints black as the color nozzles are clogged almost completely, has a little rubber stopper that fits in the hole in the top of the catridge - pop it out, fill the cartridge, stick the stopper back in. That black cartridge is probably over a year and a half old. I wish the printheads held out that well.
The new Canon printers, like the C80 - are the printheads replaceable? How easily do they clog? I had a Canon 4200, and those heads would clog like every other ink tank.
Sorry, but the C80 is a new Epson printer.
And yes, Epsons can have problems with print heads clogging, but I've never had any difficulty (mainly because I print quite freqently). If you don't plan to use your future printer very much, you would be well advised to stick with a Cannon (assuming they have print heads integrated into the cartridges).
I've had a Canon S900 for about a year now.
No problem with printheads clogging like used to happen all the time with my Epson Stylus 600.
No problem with printheads clogging like used to happen all the time with my Epson Stylus 600.
RE:"Name me a single decent graphics house that uses generic ink on their printers and I'll give you a cookie."
Some generic ink is better than others to be sure.
My college room-mate and later business partner is in the ink business. So I'm very familiar with it. Sure, inkjet manufacturers have ink formulated to work well in their printers and some of the "generic" cartidges are better than others and very good as well.
Here's a company that makes very good "generic ink"...so good in fact they have been sued by HP.
Link
Some generic ink is better than others to be sure.
My college room-mate and later business partner is in the ink business. So I'm very familiar with it. Sure, inkjet manufacturers have ink formulated to work well in their printers and some of the "generic" cartidges are better than others and very good as well.
Here's a company that makes very good "generic ink"...so good in fact they have been sued by HP.
Link
Epson can use permanant printer heads because they don't use thermal inkjet printing. On the other hand, Canon still uses thermal printing, so they HAVE to make it so you can remove the head and clean it, otherwise, they wouldn't be able to print after a year.
With an Epson, if you print 1 document, 1 page per week, you'll never have a problem with print heads being clogged. Hell, use task scheduler to do a Windows test print once a week and you'll be golden.
With an Epson, if you print 1 document, 1 page per week, you'll never have a problem with print heads being clogged. Hell, use task scheduler to do a Windows test print once a week and you'll be golden.
Epson uses piezo-electric inkjet printer technology. With the use of a "piezo" crystal (it flexes) ink is pumped out of the nozzle. They use this on their Stylus series of printers.
Canon, HP and just about everyone else uses thermal inkjet technology. Ink is heated by a resistor and when it bubbles it displaces itself outside the nozzle on to the paper. It can do this up to a million times a second.
It costs a lot more to make piezo-electric printheads. Thermal is more popular overall.
HP printheads are on the cartridges. Canons are separate but can be replaced easily and more cheaply than an epson printhead.
Mac
Canon, HP and just about everyone else uses thermal inkjet technology. Ink is heated by a resistor and when it bubbles it displaces itself outside the nozzle on to the paper. It can do this up to a million times a second.
It costs a lot more to make piezo-electric printheads. Thermal is more popular overall.
HP printheads are on the cartridges. Canons are separate but can be replaced easily and more cheaply than an epson printhead.
Mac
You seem to know what you're talking about with regard to the technologies, but it's as if you're oblivious to the implications.
Yes, it's more expensive to make the heads on Epsons. That's why they last the life of the printer. Heat is THE single reason why up until 2 years ago, a manufacturer would have been out of their minds to put a permanent print head on a thermal printer. Heat wears down parts. HP's smart enough to use replaceable print heads, but not so with Canon. I guarantee if you have that thing for a year you're gonna get some clogged nozzles, because that's what heat does.
The Epsons, on the other hand, have no heat in the entire printing process. That's why it's able to clear minor clogs with a simple self-cleaning, and why the cost of printing is so much cheaper than with an HP or a Canon.
Yes, it's more expensive to make the heads on Epsons. That's why they last the life of the printer. Heat is THE single reason why up until 2 years ago, a manufacturer would have been out of their minds to put a permanent print head on a thermal printer. Heat wears down parts. HP's smart enough to use replaceable print heads, but not so with Canon. I guarantee if you have that thing for a year you're gonna get some clogged nozzles, because that's what heat does.
The Epsons, on the other hand, have no heat in the entire printing process. That's why it's able to clear minor clogs with a simple self-cleaning, and why the cost of printing is so much cheaper than with an HP or a Canon.
RE:"but not so with Canon. I guarantee if you have that thing for a year you're gonna get some clogged nozzles, because that's what heat does"
You may be a little out of touch with recent Canon offerings.
Later Canons have a very good deep cleaning system and their printheads are removeable or replaceable.
I just had the printhead go on an S630 after 14 months and over 10,000 copies using (refilling too).
I can replace that printhead for about $40. Or I can simple buy a S750 for around $100 or another i550 for $100 or i850 for $148.
Actually I was glad to see it go so I could upgrade to the newer printers. I really don't care about keeping a printer longer than a year or two because speed and quality keep getting better. I also figure total printing costs. I refill. For what I save on cartridges I could buy 10 more printers.
For my needs, Canons fit the bill (printing costs are very low.) HPs do not. Epsons, depending on the printer don't refill well. Some don't reset or you have to buy a resetter. Canon reads the level via a mirror...not in the cartridge. Canon ink tanks are transparent so you can actually see what you have left. HP lies, tells you ink is low when you have 40% left. Epsons tanks are opaque at best.
You can argue about Epson printheads lasting longer. Canon has a lifetime warranty on their new printheads. Everything else is a year which you can double to 2 years at Sams for instance for 4% of the cost. On a $148 i850 that's $4.93.
Mac
You may be a little out of touch with recent Canon offerings.
Later Canons have a very good deep cleaning system and their printheads are removeable or replaceable.
I just had the printhead go on an S630 after 14 months and over 10,000 copies using (refilling too).
I can replace that printhead for about $40. Or I can simple buy a S750 for around $100 or another i550 for $100 or i850 for $148.
Actually I was glad to see it go so I could upgrade to the newer printers. I really don't care about keeping a printer longer than a year or two because speed and quality keep getting better. I also figure total printing costs. I refill. For what I save on cartridges I could buy 10 more printers.
For my needs, Canons fit the bill (printing costs are very low.) HPs do not. Epsons, depending on the printer don't refill well. Some don't reset or you have to buy a resetter. Canon reads the level via a mirror...not in the cartridge. Canon ink tanks are transparent so you can actually see what you have left. HP lies, tells you ink is low when you have 40% left. Epsons tanks are opaque at best.
You can argue about Epson printheads lasting longer. Canon has a lifetime warranty on their new printheads. Everything else is a year which you can double to 2 years at Sams for instance for 4% of the cost. On a $148 i850 that's $4.93.
Mac
Macro2, I like your philosophy on saving money on ink to put towards a newer printer later.
Can you steer me to a decent refill ink for my S900?
Can you steer me to a decent refill ink for my S900?
The S900 is a 6 color photo printer. I'm assuming you print a lot of photographs so you might want the best quality ink matching. Of course Canon ink cartridges would be your first choice. OTOH, if you do a lot of printing then you still sould save a lot on refills.
I buy my bulk ink here. It's the best quality and the best price I have found. I usually buy pints or quarts (black).http://www.atlascopy.com/refills/bulkcanon.htm]ATLASCOPY
There are various places that sell syringes, blunt needles, little black rubber balls to reseal the ink hole etc. I now buy that stuff as needed.
You can also find a few sites on the net that give instructions on how to refill BCI-3 or 6 cartridges. Basically you remove the plastic ball(stick a heavy T-pin into the ball and pry it out making sure you don't score the sides of the hole) on the top of the cartridge. Only remove a little of the tape directly around that hole. Save the orange caps that come with new cartridges and use them to seal the large hole on the bottom...using a rubber band.
Fill through the top, slowly without injecting any air. I use little black balls to reseal the hole. I then tape over that with a piece of Aluminum duct tape (real shiny, not the grey stuff) just for good measure. You can get a roll of this at home depot for about $6 which wil last forever. Comes in 2" wide like regular duct tape.
One other option is a continuous feed system.
Check here for more information. He sure likes Canons too.
http://www.theinkplace.com/dr.inks comments.htmLINK
READ THE YELLOW BANNER
I buy my bulk ink here. It's the best quality and the best price I have found. I usually buy pints or quarts (black).http://www.atlascopy.com/refills/bulkcanon.htm]ATLASCOPY
There are various places that sell syringes, blunt needles, little black rubber balls to reseal the ink hole etc. I now buy that stuff as needed.
You can also find a few sites on the net that give instructions on how to refill BCI-3 or 6 cartridges. Basically you remove the plastic ball(stick a heavy T-pin into the ball and pry it out making sure you don't score the sides of the hole) on the top of the cartridge. Only remove a little of the tape directly around that hole. Save the orange caps that come with new cartridges and use them to seal the large hole on the bottom...using a rubber band.
Fill through the top, slowly without injecting any air. I use little black balls to reseal the hole. I then tape over that with a piece of Aluminum duct tape (real shiny, not the grey stuff) just for good measure. You can get a roll of this at home depot for about $6 which wil last forever. Comes in 2" wide like regular duct tape.
One other option is a continuous feed system.
Check here for more information. He sure likes Canons too.
http://www.theinkplace.com/dr.inks comments.htmLINK
READ THE YELLOW BANNER
I like this part...
"I want to set the record straight about refilling cartridges. All of the printer manufacturers do not want people to refill their cartridges. Why??.. because they will lose exceptional revenue. Think about this for one moment, the average color cartridge holds approximately 12 cc of ink per color chamber and I am being generous. Go to the gas station and fill up your tank with 12 cc of gas and then pay the attendant 30.00 dollars. Are we crazy? I have no problem with them making money. Yes, they developed the printer and the cartridge and they need to make back their investment and I have no problem with that. I have a problem with being over charged for cartridges with so little ink!
So what are some of the manufacturers doing to prevent you from refilling? They are now putting lock out chips on the cartridges. This stops you from refilling a cartridge that can be filled at leased 2 or three times. Here are some of the manufacturers that have incorporated a lock out chip. Epson most of all their new models, Hewlett Packard and Brother. Lexmark will soon follow.
I applaud Canon, they do not use any lock out chip on their cartridges. Their newer printers use simple inexpensive cartridges either to purchase or to refill. They are sold separately so if you only need yellow then you only buy yellow. Xerox has a similar inking system using separate ink tanks."
"I want to set the record straight about refilling cartridges. All of the printer manufacturers do not want people to refill their cartridges. Why??.. because they will lose exceptional revenue. Think about this for one moment, the average color cartridge holds approximately 12 cc of ink per color chamber and I am being generous. Go to the gas station and fill up your tank with 12 cc of gas and then pay the attendant 30.00 dollars. Are we crazy? I have no problem with them making money. Yes, they developed the printer and the cartridge and they need to make back their investment and I have no problem with that. I have a problem with being over charged for cartridges with so little ink!
So what are some of the manufacturers doing to prevent you from refilling? They are now putting lock out chips on the cartridges. This stops you from refilling a cartridge that can be filled at leased 2 or three times. Here are some of the manufacturers that have incorporated a lock out chip. Epson most of all their new models, Hewlett Packard and Brother. Lexmark will soon follow.
I applaud Canon, they do not use any lock out chip on their cartridges. Their newer printers use simple inexpensive cartridges either to purchase or to refill. They are sold separately so if you only need yellow then you only buy yellow. Xerox has a similar inking system using separate ink tanks."
I was looking on Canons website to buy a printhead for the S630. I know they are around $40 bucks or so.
Then I see a brand new S750 for $79.95. This includes cartridges.
I already have a couple 750s and they are faster.
LINK
This just fortifies the idea that it doesn't pay to fix these things. Just buy a new one....
Then I see a brand new S750 for $79.95. This includes cartridges.
I already have a couple 750s and they are faster.
LINK
This just fortifies the idea that it doesn't pay to fix these things. Just buy a new one....
Grab a used HP LJ 4+ (or a 5 - But NOT the 5L or any of the consumer level 5's, make sure you get a workgroup level printer). My roommate & I got one for $50, with a 10/100 jetdirect & 22 mb of RAM. Even came with a toner cartridge.
12 ppm, 600 dpi, and absolutely bulletproof reliability. I regularly see 4+'s with over 500K pages, & I've seen a few with over 1 million pages.
The maximum capacity cartridge is good for 8,800 pages & is $93.99. That's $0.0106 per page @ 5% coverage. You will not get a cost that low, or equivalent office document quality with ANY inkjet.
HP toner cartridges are warrantied as long as they have toner in them - If it dies, they'll replace it. No questions asked, no need to return the old cartridge.
Viper GTS
12 ppm, 600 dpi, and absolutely bulletproof reliability. I regularly see 4+'s with over 500K pages, & I've seen a few with over 1 million pages.
The maximum capacity cartridge is good for 8,800 pages & is $93.99. That's $0.0106 per page @ 5% coverage. You will not get a cost that low, or equivalent office document quality with ANY inkjet.
HP toner cartridges are warrantied as long as they have toner in them - If it dies, they'll replace it. No questions asked, no need to return the old cartridge.
Viper GTS
RE:"HP toner cartridges are warrantied as long as they have toner in them - If it dies, they'll replace it. No questions asked, no need to return the old cartridge."
That's good to know. I've had to throw some of them away...even after <1000 pages.
The idea you will get 8,000 pages out of one of these things is tenuous at best.
I bought a Laserjet 4 about 10 years ago and the thing never was that reliable. Maybe the 4 + was better.
That's good to know. I've had to throw some of them away...even after <1000 pages.
The idea you will get 8,000 pages out of one of these things is tenuous at best.
I bought a Laserjet 4 about 10 years ago and the thing never was that reliable. Maybe the 4 + was better.
Not sure if they're still made anymore but my Samsung ML1210 is awesome and cheap. I bought it cause it got great reviews, came with 2 toner cartridges, and was only like $120. I couldn't be happier for the money.
% coverage makes all the difference in the world. Newer HP's keep track of the coverage level you're averaging so you can better estimate how many pages you're getting per cartridge. At 5% coverage you will get the rated page count, but toss in graphics (printing web pages, for example) & your coverage quickly increases.
And yes, if you have a cartridge die by all means call HP. They'll have you do a couple basic tests if you don't have another cartridge there (to verify that the cartridge is the problem), but they'll send you a brand new cartridge. They'll even overnight it to you if you don't have another cartridge there to get you immediately back up & printing.
The LJ4+/5 (virtually the same hardware, skinned differently & have a different control panel/menu system) are significantly different than 4's. LJ4's are good printers as well, but the 4+/5 is better.
Did you own it when it was new? Many people neglect their printers, usually out of lack of education. A properly maintained (maintenance kits at the appropriate intervals, etc.) 4+/5 should be extremely reliable. Equivalent reliability in a new printer will cost you $1000 for a base model with no options.
Viper GTS
I paid about $1400 for that LJ 4. It was fairly new to the market at the time. I still have it but rarely use it. The paper tends to jam. I think one of the problems with the toners was that I didn't keep it in an airconditioned environment all the time. The toner may have gotten moisture and gummed up somehow. I can remember trying to call HP at the time. Getting to talk to a live person was impossible. I came to the opinion at that time that HP tech support and even their warranty was a complete joke. Hopefully it has improved since then.
Add that to Hewlett Packards ink jet cartridge rip off scheme and I'm very leery of HP products. I'm in the market for a color laser. Even there I've found HP to have designed product so they can maximized revenue based on toners.
Add that to Hewlett Packards ink jet cartridge rip off scheme and I'm very leery of HP products. I'm in the market for a color laser. Even there I've found HP to have designed product so they can maximized revenue based on toners.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
This is a good thread. I am looking for a cheap color printer just for photos. Since color photos drain cartridges fast, I was thinking a Canon would be most economical.
The quality doesn't have pass exhibition standards, just not to look bad.
Anyone have an opinion on the Canon S200 or i320?
The quality doesn't have pass exhibition standards, just not to look bad.
Anyone have an opinion on the Canon S200 or i320?
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