Good article: Let's stop calling the left anti-war

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Well, since there was no substantial terrorist activity in Iraq before the war, I suppose we could stop calling the so called right anti-terrorists, since their actions opened the door for Iraqi citizens to be blown up by them.

Way to go guys! You are pro-terrorist!

Goose meet gander.

So when a dictator kills his own people, it's not terrorism?

edit: terrorism: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

A lot more of that was going on under Saddam's dictatorship than is going on now, so I guess you could add pro-terrorist in addition to the anti-american label on such liberals.

edit: Oops, I see that recognition goes to Frackal for already pointing out that Michael Moore, Sheehan etc are pro-terrorist.

And for the link tards:

the death rate is running at the rate of about 45 dead per 100,000 population per year.

During Saddam?s long reign, the Iraqi death rate from democide (the government killing its own people) averaged over 100 per 100,000 a year.

If you want to broaden the scope of terrorism beyond it's common useage fine. Then you can add the US to the list of terrorists, since we used Pinochet and the Shaw, and supported Saddam back in the day.

Your statistic is an interesting one. Your average is over his entire reign. What was it after we pulled his fangs so he couldn't attack the Kurds, or anyone else? What was it for a few years before we attacked the Iraqis? Was it "average"? Does your statistic include the Iraqis killed by our war on them as well as terrorist attacks? How many have we killed anyway?

You've called up numbers. Let's have a look at the data.

Did you even read the original article? Man I hate debating with idiots.

You debate with yourself? A masterdebator no doubt.

My microcephalic friend, there is not much here in terms of timeline. Let's bring this down to your level. If during the timeframe we invaded, the death rate went UP, then we made things worse. Your article brings up Saddam's average. How many was he killing when we invaded? It doesn't say. I also does not take into account how many died as a result of the war proper.


"The Iraqi government now believes that at least 12,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed during the last 18 months. In the last ten months, about 800 Iraqi civilians and police have been killed each month."

So 800x10=8000

12000-8000=4000. Can you follow that?

Wait, that was 8k in 10 months, leaving that 4000 for the 8 months prior. Ok, sounds about right, although that's a guess. (which is what the Iraqi govt is selling, which may or may not be a true figure).

So what about the people killed BY the war? Oops, not important.

So for you of very little brain-

If the death toll has increased since the period immediately prior to the invasion (including those killed in the war) then things have gotten WORSE as a result. Your article says nothing about that.

Now if you want your ass handed back to you in a hat again, keep hammering away with this same material.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Kind of like anyone on this forum who defends Bush or declares themselves conservative is automatically dismissed as a NeoCon by the left fringe.

I don't know how many times I have discussed a point on this forum, only to be dismissed as taking my talking points from Rush Limbaugh. :roll:

Get used to it. Pretty standard procedure for the old circle jerk of liberals around these parts.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

You'd really have to worry if the Left Fringe took a page from the Extreme Right and started labeling everybody that disagrees with them as being Anti-American

Well I doubt we have to worry about the left fringe labeling anyone anti-American, but some of them at least have been known to label conservatives as Nazis...when all else fails, demonize your opponent.

Boy does that ever go both ways...it seems to be the only trick left in the book lately. As far as I can tell, we live in a country totally populated by religious nutbars and America haters. But don't forget, the generalization that applies to MY side is unfair, and those damn {insert generalization here} on the other side are the real bad guys.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Kind of like anyone on this forum who defends Bush or declares themselves conservative is automatically dismissed as a NeoCon by the left fringe.

I don't know how many times I have discussed a point on this forum, only to be dismissed as taking my talking points from Rush Limbaugh. :roll:

Get used to it. Pretty standard procedure for the old circle jerk of liberals around these parts.

You guys have a pretty impressive circle yourselves. What you lack in numbers, you make up for in enthusiasm. I picture Sean Hannity with a megaphone keeping pace, and Ann Coulter attempting to attract new members (heh). She must be a lot more attractive to conservatives or something, because you guys have been multiplying like rabbits around here.

Oh well, it's boring otherwise

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Kind of like anyone on this forum who defends Bush or declares themselves conservative is automatically dismissed as a NeoCon by the left fringe.

I don't know how many times I have discussed a point on this forum, only to be dismissed as taking my talking points from Rush Limbaugh. :roll:

Get used to it. Pretty standard procedure for the old circle jerk of liberals around these parts.

How'd that crow taste the other night? You never did answer me.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: conjur
How'd that crow taste the other night? You never did answer me.

I prefer not to feed the trolls.

BTW you've left a few hundred of my questions unanswered

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Condor
Yeah, lets start calling them what they are - True Americans!

I agree.

So you consider someone who denigrates the Armed Forces (and thus increases the morale of the enemy) and someone who likens terrorists who kill innocent children/women to Minutemen, as true Americans?

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Steeplerot]

too bad the armed forces are complacent in being the tool of the real enemy and their imperialistic greed.

oh well, we can just chalk it up to history kinda like what they did to the indians...*shrug*

 

[Starbuck1975]

She must be a lot more attractive to conservatives or something, because you guys have been multiplying like rabbits around here.

Not just any kind of rabbits...we bring with us certain death, with big nasty pointy teeth...the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodents you will ever set your eyes on...look at the bones!!!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
too bad the armed forces are complacent in being the tool of the real enemy and their imperialistic greed.

oh well, we can just chalk it up to history kinda like what they did to the indians...*shrug*

:roll:

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: conjur
How'd that crow taste the other night? You never did answer me.

BTW you've left a few hundred of my questions unanswered

What do you mean, questions of yours like, "Why was my allowance cut?" and "Mommy, why did you confiscate my anatomically correct Jeff Gannon action doll?"

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: JungleMan1

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Condor
Yeah, lets start calling them what they are - True Americans!

I agree.

So you consider someone who denigrates the Armed Forces (and thus increases the morale of the enemy) and someone who likens terrorists who kill innocent children/women to Minutemen, as true Americans?

Wow. Just wow.

Oh look! A new fluffer full of BS.

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: conjur
Oh look! A new fluffer full of BS.

Oh, I'm full of BS? How is that?

Is it not true that when you have a group of people constantly repeating that "the war was a mistake" and that soldiers are "fighting for a lie" (such a "lie" that has been told by countless other Democrats who believed Saddam to be a threat to our nation and has WMDs or the capabilities to develop WMDs...but none of them will admit that now, being that we haven't found stockpiles of WMDs), it decreases the morale of the Armed Forces?

Is it not true that Cindy Sheehan is fighting against the very cause that her son fought for and even re-enlisted to fight for, all in the name of her son, who no doubt is looking upon this and shaking his head?

Is it not true that the enemy sees anti-war sentiment as a weakening in our side, and their confidence increases?

Is it not true that Moore sides with the terrorists/insurgents by likening them to Minutemen, who fought against oppression and for freedom, when in reality they are fighting against freedom and for oppression (they hate freedom, hate Americans, and fear for change in Iraq)?

Since none of these facts are debatable, I can only conclude that you and I have vastly different definitions of what a "true American" is, so either give me your definition of a true American or STFU and leave this thread because you're contributing nothing.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: JungleMan1

Originally posted by: conjur
Oh look! A new fluffer full of BS.

Oh, I'm full of BS? How is that?

Is it not true that when you have a group of people constantly repeating that "the war was a mistake" and that soldiers are "fighting for a lie" (such a "lie" that has been told by countless other Democrats who believed Saddam to be a threat to our nation and has WMDs or the capabilities to develop WMDs...but none of them will admit that now, being that we haven't found stockpiles of WMDs), it decreases the morale of the Armed Forces?

Is it not true that Cindy Sheehan is fighting against the very cause that her son fought for and even re-enlisted to fight for, all in the name of her son, who no doubt is looking upon this and shaking his head?

Is it not true that the enemy sees anti-war sentiment as a weakening in our side, and their confidence increases?

Is it not true that Moore sides with the terrorists/insurgents by likening them to Minutemen, who fought against oppression and for freedom, when in reality they are fighting against freedom and for oppression (they hate freedom, hate Americans, and fear for change in Iraq)?

Since none of these facts are debatable, I can only conclude that you and I have vastly different definitions of what a "true American" is, so either give me your definition of a true American or STFU and leave this thread because you're contributing nothing.

cmon man, the world is not so damn black and white. i urge you to look a little deeper into the Iraq situation. there is only word that I can describe the war in Iraq with, and that is complex. i don't think many people, including myself, know all the reasons why we are there.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: JungleMan1

Originally posted by: conjur
Oh look! A new fluffer full of BS.

Oh, I'm full of BS? How is that?

Is it not true that when you have a group of people constantly repeating that "the war was a mistake" and that soldiers are "fighting for a lie" (such a "lie" that has been told by countless other Democrats who believed Saddam to be a threat to our nation and has WMDs or the capabilities to develop WMDs...but none of them will admit that now, being that we haven't found stockpiles of WMDs), it decreases the morale of the Armed Forces?

No. Not true at all. That's just a meme spewed by the brainwashed right.

Is it not true that Cindy Sheehan is fighting against the very cause that her son fought for and even re-enlisted to fight for, all in the name of her son, who no doubt is looking upon this and shaking his head?

Again, not true. Casey Sheehan gladly enlisted to fight in Afghanistan. He did NOT agree with the war in Iraq but he went back to his unit as he felt it was his duty to be with his former unit. I believe Cindy knows about her son than some brain-dead Kool-Aid drinker.

Is it not true that the enemy sees anti-war sentiment as a weakening in our side, and their confidence increases?

We have no way of knowing for sure. One thing we DO know, though, is that our presence there or not will not stop the violence. No putting that cat back in the bag.

Is it not true that Moore sides with the terrorists/insurgents by likening them to Minutemen, who fought against oppression and for freedom, when in reality they are fighting against freedom and for oppression (they hate freedom, hate Americans, and fear for change in Iraq)?

Roy Moore? The judge fighting for the 10 commandments in courthouses? Michael Moore? A movie-maker whose opinion is no better or worse than anyone else in the U.S.?

Since none of these facts are debatable, I can only conclude that you and I have vastly different definitions of what a "true American" is, so either give me your definition of a true American or STFU and leave this thread because you're contributing nothing.

You haven't listed one fact yet. Stop reading freerepublic.com, watching Faux News and listening to Hannity and Limbaugh.

I suggest you follow your advice as it appears you were looking in the mirror when you wrote that last sentence.

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: conjur
No. Not true at all. That's just a meme spewed by the brainwashed right

So if you got up every morning early to go to a 16-hour day of physical labor at your job, and you had people campaigning outside your window saying that what you do is useless and that the company you work for is based on a lie, you wouldn't be demoralized in the least?

People in Iraq right now have dedicated their lives to the Armed Forces for the time they are there, every day they risk their lives, and you think that having people tell them that they do all that for nothing isn't demoralizing?

Please.

Again, not true. Casey Sheehan gladly enlisted to fight in Afghanistan. He did NOT agree with the war in Iraq but he went back to his unit as he felt it was his duty to be with his former unit. I believe Cindy knows about her son than some brain-dead Kool-Aid drinker.

Neither of us is ever going to know how strongly Casey opposed or supported the Iraq war (but obviously his mother is going to tell you he opposed it) but what we DO know is that Casey enlisted to fight and put his life on the line TWICE, even after the Iraq war began.

Nobody voluntarily puts their life on the line for a "lie".

We have no way of knowing for sure. One thing we DO know, though, is that our presence there or not will not stop the violence. No putting that cat back in the bag.

Our presence there is not going to stop the violence immediately but withdrawing right now would make it even worse. The new Iraq government is not strong enough to keep down the violence going on right now-- they'd be overthrown completely in a matter of weeks without US occupation.

Heck, we still have troops in Korea, yet you're saying we should withdraw from an unstable country?

Remember, the news can report all the violent acts that Coalition forces couldn't stop, but can't possibly report all the violent acts that may have occurred without Coalition troops in place.

Roy Moore? The judge fighting for the 10 commandments in courthouses? Michael Moore? A movie-maker whose opinion is no better or worse than anyone else in the U.S.?

Michael Moore.

Yes, his opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's, neither is Sheehan's, but you call these people "true Americans". In such case, you probably consider yourself a true American and agree with Michael Moore's likening of the insurgents to Minutemen, is that true? If so, explain?

You haven't listed one fact yet. Stop reading freerepublic.com, watching Faux News and listening to Hannity and Limbaugh.

I suggest you follow your advice as it appears you were looking in the mirror when you wrote that last sentence.

I don't watch Fox News anymore than I watch CNN (which is almost never), I've never listened to Hannity or Limbaugh in my life, and I've never read FreeRepublic.

Again another case of the libs crying "bias" when someone doesn't agree with them.

I have listed facts but you are too ignorant to comprehend them, and too weak of a debater to counter them.

 

[conjur]

I can see no one is going to get anywhere with you when you adamantly hold on to biased opinion as fact.

At least you're a bit more eloquent than the other Freepers/RNC Team Lead trolls of late.

 

[JungleMan1]

OK, fine, if you insist, I'll call it an opinion (we'll agree to disagree).

But let's hear your opinion on what makes the aforementioned characters "True Americans".

That's all I ask of ya.

 

[conjur]

Because they were born in America and they are voicing their opinion of a perceived wrong (a perception in line with more and more Americans each day) via their Constitutional rights.

Dissent is patriotic.

How do you think we got here in the first place?

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: conjur
Because they were born in America and they are voicing their opinion of a perceived wrong (a perception in line with more and more Americans each day) via their Constitutional rights.

Dissent is patriotic.

How do you think we got here in the first place?

Dissent is not always patriotic-- the right to dissent is patriotic. And as much as I hate Sheehan, Moore and company, and find what they say disagreeable and offensive, I do not wish to hinder their rights to say it, because that would be anti-American. (Now on a related topic, Sheehan refusing to comply with the same laws that apply to anyone else, certainly did warrant her recent arrest. There is peaceful dissent and then there is disregard for the laws.)

Disagreeing with the war is not anti-American. Disagree with it all you want, but don't side with the enemy.

Drilling ideals into the troops' heads that, "Well, the insurgents/terrorists are really just Minutemen types fighting for their freedom, and you guys who are fighting for oil will be defeated, and if you die fighting, we really don't appreciate your sacrifice because it was all for a lie anyway"-- that's Anti-American IMHO, because it's giving more support to our enemy (and we can all agree that people who want to kill Americans are enemies, right? That's kindergarten logic) and less support to our country.

Even if you don't agree with the Iraq war, without a military we would be extremely vulnerable to outside attack on our land (from anyone), so as I say "You can disagree with the war but always support the troops".

Actually, while we're on the topic of getting here in the first place, let's recall that those Minutemen fought for our right to dissent, our right to disagree and to speak our minds.

Something that Iraqi insurgents certainly aren't fighting for in Iraq, I can assure you.

 

[conjur]

There's NO ONE siding with the enemy. If you truly believe that you are beyond hope and are quite aligned with the Swiftboat liar mentality and, therefore, are beyond all hope.

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: conjur
There's NO ONE siding with the enemy. If you truly believe that you are beyond hope and are quite aligned with the Swiftboat liar mentality and, therefore, are beyond all hope.

Ohhh..aha! Now I've got the "Swiftboat Liar" mentality. An organization that made TV ads during the election last year and has absolutely nothing to do with the Iraq war. Due to my beliefs that a movie producer and a middle-aged civilian woman are siding with the enemy and are not "true Americans", this creates the indisputable link that exists between myself and a 527 campaign group who disputed details about John Kerry?s service in the Vietnam War.

Moving right along? just a quick second while I break out my Everyone-Else-To-Conjur translator:

"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ?insurgents? or ?terrorists? or ?The Enemy.? They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?"

Now for a quick briefing before we begin, we all can agree that:
- the Iraqis, in rising up against the occupation, attempt to kill as many American soldiers as possible.
- terrorists are the enemy...we CAN agree with this, right?
- insurgents are (according to Webster's) "a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government", and being that Coalition troops have put this government into place, those who attempt to revolt against /overthrow it are the ENEMY of our efforts.
- "the enemy" loosely translates into "the enemy".
- the Minutemen of the American Revolution wanted freedom and did not want to be under the strict (not really by today?s standards) rule of the British.

"The Iraqis who are trying to kill American soldiers are not "the enemy" or "the enemy" or "The Enemy". They are the REVOLUTION, the innocent fighters who just want freedom and to escape oppression from the evil government put in place by the Americans, and their numbers will grow -- and they will kill enough American soldiers to the point that we give up and let them take over the country. Do you understand that you have no hope, Mr. Bush?"

Wow! Michael Moore has informed us that people who want to kill American soldiers are not the enemy! What a true American patriot he is! :roll: