"Gonzales Will Follow Non-Torture Policies."

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
No, those prisoners were NOT afforded the Geneva Conventions. And, how do you know everyone who was tortured or abused were actual POWs and not innocents?

If the Geneva Conventions were followed in Abu Ghraib, then why were there murders, beatings, rapes, molestations, sodomies, etc?

Exactly, how do YOU know. You toss out that 70-90% figure alot but fail to mention that they were actually let go after interrogation. You act as if everyone is being tortured as some sort of policy.:p What a joke. You can't separate Abu from the other situations where a prisoner's status is defined as something other than POW.

:roll: They were followed - except for a few who broke the law and are now having their day in court. Sheesh - is it that hard for you to understand?

CsG

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ay10&notFound=true
Much of the behavior most troubling to Red Cross monitors was brutality toward newly arrested Iraqis by soldiers who had captured them. Ill-treatment toward new captives was so frequent and consistent, the Red Cross said, that it seemed to reflect a "usual modus operandi" by certain units.

Poor military supervision of battle units may have been a factor, according to the report.

Abuse of prisoners during interrogation and longer-term captivity, however, was not systematic, the Red Cross concluded. Indeed, the monitors said mistreatment typically ceased when prisoners reached prison facilities.

The exceptions were detainees deemed suspects in attacks on foreign forces and those considered to have valuable intelligence. U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib have said they were pressed by intelligence officers to "soften up" captives for questioning.

The Red Cross identified these categories of mistreatment and reported them to leaders of the U.S.-led occupation in Baghdad:

? Brutality during capture or early custody, sometimes causing serious injury or death.

? Physical or psychological coercion.

? Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight.

? Excessive and disproportionate use of force.

Three months before the Defense Department opened an investigation into conditions at Abu Ghraib, Red Cross investigators assigned to monitor compliance with the Geneva Conventions notified U.S. authorities of many of the harsh measures.

'nuff said.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
No, those prisoners were NOT afforded the Geneva Conventions. And, how do you know everyone who was tortured or abused were actual POWs and not innocents?

If the Geneva Conventions were followed in Abu Ghraib, then why were there murders, beatings, rapes, molestations, sodomies, etc?

Exactly, how do YOU know. You toss out that 70-90% figure alot but fail to mention that they were actually let go after interrogation. You act as if everyone is being tortured as some sort of policy.:p What a joke. You can't separate Abu from the other situations where a prisoner's status is defined as something other than POW.

:roll: They were followed - except for a few who broke the law and are now having their day in court. Sheesh - is it that hard for you to understand?

CsG

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ay10&notFound=true
Much of the behavior most troubling to Red Cross monitors was brutality toward newly arrested Iraqis by soldiers who had captured them. Ill-treatment toward new captives was so frequent and consistent, the Red Cross said, that it seemed to reflect a "usual modus operandi" by certain units.

Poor military supervision of battle units may have been a factor, according to the report.

Abuse of prisoners during interrogation and longer-term captivity, however, was not systematic, the Red Cross concluded. Indeed, the monitors said mistreatment typically ceased when prisoners reached prison facilities.

The exceptions were detainees deemed suspects in attacks on foreign forces and those considered to have valuable intelligence. U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib have said they were pressed by intelligence officers to "soften up" captives for questioning.

The Red Cross identified these categories of mistreatment and reported them to leaders of the U.S.-led occupation in Baghdad:

? Brutality during capture or early custody, sometimes causing serious injury or death.

? Physical or psychological coercion.

? Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight.

? Excessive and disproportionate use of force.

Three months before the Defense Department opened an investigation into conditions at Abu Ghraib, Red Cross investigators assigned to monitor compliance with the Geneva Conventions notified U.S. authorities of many of the harsh measures.

'nuff said.
:roll:
Ah yes, the old tactic of the left rears it's head. Make unsubstantiated claims of "brutality" and such in an undefined manner. I did some reading a while back on some of these claims. From what I've read - the Red Cross and these other alarmists would consider our American police policies - "brutality". What a joke. Nice try conjur but you have once again failed. Try taking off your rabid Bush hating glasses for a moment and take a good look at reality.

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Unsubstantiated??


WTF?


Be gone with thee, CsG. Stop acting the fool.

Yes, now actually pay attention when reading. You can continue to claim America and our troops are evil if you wish but those of us living here in reality know it's you who is playing the fool. Abu had nothing to do with Gonzales, he opined on the issue of combatants and how it might be interpreted by a judge so we could stay within the law. I know you won't accept those truths -but they are none-the-less.

CsG
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
i love how easy it is to toss a label on something and make it useless: red cross = alarmists, therefore nothing they could say is legit.
i hear rush talking about how this is all just because white liberals are rasict and hate hispanics.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Geneva Convention?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/...ture.html?id=110006122

'Torture' Showdown
By all means let's have a debate over interrogating terrorists.

Thursday, January 6, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

The White House appears to be dreading today's confirmation hearings for Alberto Gonzales now that Democrats seem ready to blame the Attorney General nominee for Abu Ghraib and other detainee mistreatment. But this is actually a great chance for the Administration to do itself, and the cause of fighting terror, some good by forcefully repudiating all the glib and dangerous abuse of the word "torture."

For what's at stake in this controversy is nothing less than the ability of U.S. forces to interrogate enemies who want to murder innocent civilians. And the Democratic position, Mr. Gonzales shouldn't be afraid to say, amounts to a form of unilateral disarmament that is likely to do far more harm to civil liberties than anything even imagined so far.

The dispute here stems from the Bush Administration's decision, in early 2002, that Taliban and al Qaeda detainees didn't automatically qualify for prisoner of war status. This caused a fuss in some quarters. But it was in accord with the plain language of the original Geneva Conventions, which require POWs to have met certain criteria such as fighting in uniform and not attacking civilians. The Administration understood what critics don't want to admit--namely, that POWs may not be interrogated, period. The Geneva Conventions forbid even positive reinforcement such as better rations to coax them to talk.
This interpretation of the Geneva rules was hardly novel to the Bush Administration. It was a bipartisan consensus in 1987 when Ronald Reagan repudiated a radical document called Protocol 1--the so-called "international law" that the International Committee of the Red Cross now says requires POW status for al Qaeda. The New York Times praised the Gipper at the time for denying "a shield for terrorists," and the Washington Post also editorialized in support.

Viewed in light of that history, it was natural--and law-abiding--that in March 2002 the CIA asked the White House for guidance on permissible interrogation techniques, frustrated that the likes of al Qaeda operations chief Abu Zubaydah were refusing to give up information. Thus was born the misleadingly labeled "torture" memo, which did indeed discuss the outer limits of what the CIA might be able to do.

But to do otherwise--to not be "forward-leaning" as Mr. Gonzales is reported to have put it--would have been irresponsible of an executive branch whose primary duty is to defend the homeland. Remember, this was not long after the 9/11 and anthrax attacks, and there were (and still are) real fears of dirty bombs, smallpox and even actual nuclear weapons. Remember also that well-known liberals like Alan Dershowitz were going even further and suggesting judge-issued "torture warrants."


And so things rolled along, successfully and uncontroversially, as interrogations of Zubaydah and other al Qaeda detainees played an invaluable part in helping round up the group's leadership, including the likes of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al Shibh. Then the Abu Ghraib scandal broke early last election year, and documents like the "torture" memo were leaked and alleged to have somehow "set the tone" or "created the climate" for what happened.

The charge was absurd from the get-go. This was an internal discussion, not a policy directive; only a handful of people were even aware of it; and it was about al Qaeda, not Iraq. And, sure enough, former Defense Secretary Jim Schlesinger's later report found the Abu Ghraib abuses not only bore no resemblance to any interrogation method contemplated for Iraqi prisoners, they weren't related to interrogations at all. It was sick behavior by individuals on the "night shift." Mr. Schlesinger concluded that the overall rate of mistreatment in Afghanistan and Iraq appears to be far lower than in past conflicts.
As for al Qaeda, let us describe the most coercive interrogation technique that was ever actually authorized. It's called "water-boarding," and it involves strapping a detainee down, wrapping his face in a wet towel and dripping water on it to produce the sensation of drowning.


Is that "torture"? It is pushing the boundary of tolerable behavior, but we are told it is also used to train U.S. pilots in case they are shot down and captured. More to the critics' apparent point, is it immoral, or unjustified, in the cause of preventing another mass casualty attack on U.S. soil? By all means let's have a debate; Mr. Gonzales should challenge a few Democrats to categorically renounce it and tell us what techniques they would tolerate instead.

If the Gonzales critics are really worried about civil liberties, they might ponder the domestic political response to another 9/11. Do they really think Roosevelt's internment camps and Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus were merely products of a less enlightened age, and that Americans wouldn't respond to a dirty bomb explosion in a major city with mass detentions of men with Islamic surnames, closed borders, or worse? This civil-liberties catastrophe is precisely what "water-boarding" is trying to prevent.


So far, the White House has done a perfectly awful job of explaining this. And it now seems to be making the mistake of trying to appease the Gonzales critics with a modest mea culpa for "over-broad" internal discussions. This retreat began last year with its attempt to distance itself from a legal memo written by some very fine lawyers who were doing nothing more than exploring America's options for defending itself. Predictably, this only emboldened the critics and opportunists, and it won't surprise us to see even Republicans of the McCain-Hagel stripe seize the chance to show their "independence" before this is all over.
The better alternative is for Mr. Gonzales to go on offense and defend his entirely defensible actions. What the other side is fundamentally asserting is that aggressive interrogations are impermissible under any circumstances and to even contemplate them is to "set the tone" for torture. This is dangerous both to American security and liberty.
On a side note, that great Democratic grandstander, Ted Kennedy, actually had the nads to interrogate Gonzales about "water-boarding" and made a snide comment about the human ethic of drowning someone. What a yuck. If anything should know something about drowning someone it's Ted Kennedy.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

[...]

On a side note, that great Democratic grandstander, Ted Kennedy, actually had the nads to interrogate Gonzales about "water-boarding" and made a snide comment about the human ethic of drowning someone. What a yuck. If anything should know something about drowning someone it's Ted Kennedy.
Are you serious? Hadn't heard that one yet.

Oh the irony. Bahahahahahahahaha! Good old Tedward "I missed the bridge" Kennedy.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
I'm not wasting any more of my time posting articles here. The facts are plain enough to see. Just read the links.

Anyone who chooses can of course continue to ignore the facts. It seems for many this has become the American way.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

[...]

On a side note, that great Democratic grandstander, Ted Kennedy, actually had the nads to interrogate Gonzales about "water-boarding" and made a snide comment about the human ethic of drowning someone. What a yuck. If anything should know something about drowning someone it's Ted Kennedy.
Are you serious? Hadn't heard that one yet.

Oh the irony. Bahahahahahahahaha! Good old Tedward "I missed the bridge" Kennedy.

Yeah, I was busting a gut listening to that part. I can't wait for a sound clip of that portion.

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BBond
I'm not wasting any more of my time posting articles here. The facts are plain enough to see. Just read the links.

Anyone who chooses can of course continue to ignore the facts. It seems for many this has become the American way.

"can of course continue to ignore the facts" - As noted, this seems to be what you and others are doing. You can post "article" after "article" but that doesn't mean you understand the "facts".

Oh, and please don't stop posting from nj.com;)

CsG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?

You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?

Hello??
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Powell was Bush's Uncle Tom, and now as a reward to all his Latin constituents we get an Uncle Pedro.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Powell was Bush's Uncle Tom, and now as a reward to all his Latin constituents we get an Uncle Pedro.

Wow, first you say you are crossing your fingers that we lose in Iraq, and now you post this tripe(not to mention your sig)?

Absolutely disgusting.

CsG
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Powell was Bush's Uncle Tom, and now as a reward to all his Latin constituents we get an Uncle Pedro.

Wow, first you say you are crossing your fingers that we lose in Iraq, and now you post this tripe(not to mention your sig)?

Absolutely disgusting.

CsG

My fingers are still crossed. In a world where oil is becoming a scarce commodity, the United States needs to learn right now that buying oil with war and lives is not going to work, now or in the future. A long painful occupation will ensure that we don't secure the oil or the country, and will make the country weary of ANY military action elsewhere.

This administration doesn't listen to reason; it banks on small victories to keep its head above the water. They need to be sunk with a strong defeat, and losing in Iraq will be a stunning political defeat for the administration and the Republican party.

Enough crap about the lives of Iraqis and soldiers. War is hell right? If the administration shows such a blatant disregard for the lives of Iraqis and our soldiers when they carelessly launched the war for their purposes, why am I the bad guy when I want wish for more of the same for my purposes?
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
The witnesses against Judge Gonzales torture logic.

New Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter performed his most valuable service of a very long day in about five minutes of questioning ? during which he exposed the emptiness of the high dudgeon by confronting these experts with the so-called "ticking bomb" hypothetical: A bomb is about to be detonated in a major metropolitan area, likely to kill perhaps hundreds of thousands of people, and the military has as a captive a known terrorist who, we have reason to believe, has knowledge which would allow us to save those lives if we could get him to provide it. Are you saying, the senator asked, that torture ? even in a non-lethal method, requested by a responsible high official, and perhaps even supervised by a federal court ? would be absolutely impermissible? That we must stand down while those thousands are massacred?

The answers were fascinating. Cutting through the dizzying circumlocution, each witness either stubbornly declined to answer the question or grudgingly acknowledged that the situation made torture (of the non-lethal type described above) at least acceptable if not permissible.



Hehehe.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Hehehe indeed. Your way of countering the argument against Abu Ghronzales is to highlight a hypothetical. You go dog. :thumbsup:








:roll:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?
You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?
Hello??
??????
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?
You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?
Hello??
??????
Do you think he "ran away" ... again?

;)
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?
You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?
Hello??
??????
Do you think he "ran away" ... again?

;)
Heh heh.. I guess when you and conjur are done stroking each other, you should go back and re-read the thread. ;)

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?
You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?
Hello??
??????
Do you think he "ran away" ... again?

;)
It's obvious he has no basis for his spewing.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
A view of this situation from across the pond.

A global gulag to hide the war on terror's dirty secrets

Jonathan Steele
Friday January 14, 2005
The Guardian

The promise of imminent release for four British detainees held at the notorious US prison at Guantánamo Bay is obviously welcome, but it is only a tiny exception in the surge of bad news from the Bush team on the human rights front. The first few days of the new year have produced two shocking exposures already.

One is the revelation that the administration sees the US not just as a self-appointed global policeman, but also as the world's prison warder. It is thinking of building jails in foreign countries, mainly ones with grim human rights records, to which it can secretly transfer detainees (unconvicted by any court) for the rest of their lives - a kind of global gulag beyond the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross, or any other independent observers or lawyers.

The other horror is the light shone on the views of Alberto Gonzales, the White House nominee to be the chief law officer, the attorney general. At his Senate confirmation hearings last week he was revealed to be a man who not only refuses to rule out torture under any circumstances but also, in his capacity as White House counsel over the past few years, chaired several meetings at which specific interrogation techniques were discussed. As Edward Kennedy pointed out, and Gonzales did not deny, they included the threat of burial alive and water-boarding, under which the detainee is strapped to a board, forcibly pushed under water, wrapped in a wet towel, and made to believe he could drown.

Since its establishment after 9/11, the US camp for foreigners at Guantánamo Bay has become a beacon of unfreedom, a kind of grisly competitor to the Statue of Liberty in the shopfront of authentic American images. The trickle of releases of prisoners from its cages has brought direct testimony of the horrors which go on there. So it is no wonder that the Bush administration would like to find less visible places to hold prisoners, and keep them there for ever so that they cannot tell the world.

The Guantánamo prisoners are held by the department of defence, but under the new scheme most foreign detainees are expected to be in the hands of the CIA, which submits to less congressional scrutiny and offers the Red Cross no access. They include hundreds of people who have been arrested in recent weeks in Falluja and other Iraqi cities.

According to the Washington Post, which broke the story last week, one proposal is to have the US build new prisons in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Officials of those countries would run the prisons, and would have to allow the state department to "monitor human rights compliance".

It is a laughable proposition, since the whole purpose of the exercise is to minimise scrutiny. CIA agents would have the right to question the detainees, with or without the aid of foreign interrogators, as they already do at other off-limits prisons at Bagram air base in Afghanistan, on ships at sea, in Jordan and Egypt, and at Diego Garcia.

The US policy of lending detainees to other countries' jailers and torturers, known as "rendition", began during the "war on drugs" as a way of arresting alleged Latin American narco-barons and softening them up for trial in the US. It has expanded enormously under the "war on terror". As one CIA officer told the Washington Post, "the whole idea has become a corruption of renditions. It's not rendering to justice. It's kidnapping."

He could have added that it's kidnapping for life. A senior US official told the New York Times last week that three-quarters of the 550 prisoners at Guantánamo Bay no longer have any intelligence of value. But they will not be released out of concern that they pose a continuing threat to the US. "You're basically keeping them off the battlefield, and, unfortunately in the war on terrorism, the battlefield is everywhere," he said.

Since the attack on Falluja, the US holds 325 non-Iraqis in custody, many of them Syrians and Saudis. Questioned by the Senate's judiciary committee, Gonzales said that the justice depart ment believes that non-Iraqis captured in Iraq are not protected by the Geneva conventions, which prevent prisoners being transferred out of the country in which they are held.

It was revealed last year that Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, had approved the secret holding of "ghost detainees" in Iraq. They were kept off the registers that were shown to the Red Cross and therefore lost the chance of being visited or having other rights. Now many new prisoners will be candidates for a deeper category of invisibility by being sent for detention in secret locations abroad.

While making bland statements during his Senate appearance that he found torture abhorrent, Gonzales gave no clear assurances that its practice would stop. As White House counsel he approved an administration memorandum against torture in August 2002 which was so narrow that it appeared to define it only as treatment that led to "dying under torment". In other words, if a victim survived, he could not have been tortured.

The memo also claimed that torture only occurs when the intent is to cause pain. If pain is intentionally used to gain information or a confession, that is not torture. Thanks to this narrow definition of what is forbidden, US officials have been systematically using inhumane treatment on prisoners - far beyond the few so-called bad apples exposed by the photographs from Abu Ghraib - while saying it did not amount to torture.

A few days before Gonzales's Senate hearings, the justice department hastily rewrote the memo so that a wider category of techniques are defined as torture, and thereby prohibited. But at the hearings Gonzales refused to give a clear negative answer to the question whether, in his view, American troops or interrogators could legally engage in torture under any circumstances.

One of the glories of the hearings was the appearance of Douglas Johnson, director of the Centre for Victims of Torture. He argued that the new memo fails to give clear guidance on what the appropriate standards for interrogation and detention are. He also pointed out that torture does not yield reliable information and corrupts its perpetrators.

Psychological torture was more damaging than physical torture, he said. Interviews with victims show that depression and recurrent nightmares decades later more often relate to memories of mock executions (of the "water-boarding" type) and scenarios of humiliation than to actual physical abuse.

That these points might have impressed the man Bush wants to have as America's top law officer is not to be expected. Nor does anyone in Washington expect the Senate to refuse to confirm him for the job. Happy New War on Terror 2005.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
Say what? Bush has my back? How so?
You are alive, aren't you? I mean if everything you and your little leftist peers said about Bush was true, wouldn't you, as the problem, simply have been eliminated?
Leftist peers? WTF are you talking about?

And, how is my personal safety afforded by the war in Iraq? Care to answer that?
Hello??
??????
Do you think he "ran away" ... again?

;)
Heh heh.. I guess when you and conjur are done stroking each other, you should go back and re-read the thread. ;)


conjur? Bow?

CsG