Going Postal - A True Holiday Story

[JulesMaximus]

You got his story wrong, and my point wrong. As I've said, the op clearly has some trouble with self-control if a shouting postal worker causes him to instinctively go into defence mode. But why blame him for that? He's mentioned previous experiences with real criminals (i.e. the instigators) and those may have had an impact on his stability. If he were more rational he would have stated his exact "We're DONE now..." more calmly and not have revealed his holster to everyone, but what immoral act was committed by his yelling? The worthless government-leech was the cause of the incident.

Aren't they always? Fuckers...:biggrin:

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Has the OP been a victim of a crime? That would kind of explain a lot actually but nothing I've read of his posts indicates that he has been a victim of a crime... or crimes. Well, other than crimes against sanity of course. 😛

We need details for further analysis.

You have some sort of argument and/or statistics to back that up? Cause mine say pretty much anybody.

We had our first crime (a theft/robbery) when I was about 14 or so, long before I carried a gun. I can link you thousands of stories of small children being victimized...was that on them as well? Were they carrying guns? Did they 'bring it on themselves'? I'm willing to bet that in fact, it's exactly as I said (and as the FBI, BJS, DOJ, and every other researcher and reporter has shown for the last few thousand years): crime happens to anyone, anywhere, any time.

I find guyver's "only to victims like you" comment infinitely more offensive than anything the op has said.

 

[darkswordsman17]

What is wrong about what the op did? It was likely an irrational decision (I can't believe he said "pick your battles" earlier in the thread; this is the guy that would have gone to jail over a seat belt(?) ticket) but what is immoral about self-defence? And what is wrong with my rape victim analogy? Victims of all sorts of crimes can suffer from PTSD and similar.

The fact that he interlaced his post with things that definitely seem to indicate he's off his rocker, and you'll take his claims at face value?

Oh, he's that guy? Ok, so my question still stands.

I must have missed the self-defense part. All I see is the OP claiming the guy acted like he was going to jump a 4 foot counter and attack him while mentioning his empty holster.

Because its absurd. Does this really need to be explained to you?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The fact that he interlaced his post with things that definitely seem to indicate he's off his rocker, and you'll take his claims at face value?

Oh, he's that guy? Ok, so my question still stands.

I must have missed the self-defense part. All I see is the OP claiming the guy acted like he was going to jump a 4 foot counter and attack him while mentioning his empty holster.

Because its absurd. Does this really need to be explained to you?

I don't really care whether the op's story is true or not. I'd rather argue about the principles of what he has argued throughout the thread, which I find more or less agreeable. Yes, his fear and actions were clearly irrational if his goal was to fix a bad situation. I've stated this multiple times. My point is that why should he morally or legally forced into passivity? For the intents of the argument, the post office worker was an attacker, not physically but it was an implicit threat. The op more or less called their bluff.

 

[LegendKiller]

I live in the city and don't own a gun. I don't live my life in fear.

Frankly, I find it a bit humorous this guy rips on wasted money on credit cards and such, yet finds nothing wrong with carrying a chunk of refined steel, gunpowder, brass, lead (and other metals), plastic (leather), licensed by the state (requires tests, bureaucrats) and continual shooting (wasted cartridges) to be proficient.

Then there's the "you never know" attitude. I've been pretty drunk in the NYC subway at 4am with my wife and a couple friends and never felt threatened. I've been in several verbal arguments with people and never felt the need to even make the motion to draw a weapon. I've practiced it with my dad (who CCs), I've hunted with him and my brother, I know what it's about. I just don't understand the idea you need to carry all of the time.

Then again, I know a couple people who do and have actually used it. They weren't doing anything super dangerous.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Frankly, I find it a bit humorous this guy rips on wasted money on credit cards and such, yet finds nothing wrong with carrying a chunk of refined steel, gunpowder, brass, lead (and other metals), plastic (leather), licensed by the state (requires tests, bureaucrats) and continual shooting (wasted cartridges) to be proficient.

Unless there's a paper alternative to the handgun that I'm unaware of, this is a silly analogy.

 

[guyver01]

I find guyver's "only to victims like you" comment infinitely more offensive than anything the op has said.

well.. who do you think the criminal is gonna go after? the guy whos always looking over his shoulder, afraid of being robbed... or the guy whos walking down the street confident of himself.

 

[theprodigalrebel]

Didn't read the whole thread because it's just too loony for me but quick question - what do you have against debit cards? I can understand not agreeing with credit cards in principle - hell, my Dad worked for Citibank for 20 years, retired a millionaire and I don't remember him ever having a credit card. He thought 'they were evil' and avoided them on principle.

But what's wrong with debit cards? How has a debit card ever screwed anyone over? It's...paperless money. Not credit, but money you earned.

 

[OverVolt]

Frankly, I find it a bit humorous this guy rips on wasted money on credit cards and such, yet finds nothing wrong with carrying a chunk of refined steel, gunpowder, brass, lead (and other metals), plastic (leather), licensed by the state (requires tests, bureaucrats) and continual shooting (wasted cartridges) to be proficient.

Then there's the "you never know" attitude. I've been pretty drunk in the NYC subway at 4am with my wife and a couple friends and never felt threatened. I've been in several verbal arguments with people and never felt the need to even make the motion to draw a weapon. I've practiced it with my dad (who CCs), I've hunted with him and my brother, I know what it's about. I just don't understand the idea you need to carry all of the time.

Then again, I know a couple people who do and have actually used it. They weren't doing anything super dangerous.

I was robbed at gunpoint. It was part of a gang initiation. It's possible for them to file to "face their accuser" in my area and get my address somehow I had found out, and one of their fathers was a crack dealer with 3 pages of charges like assault.

Your really just an idiot is all. I can't carry in this area, so thats fine I'm not scared because of that, but it is definitely a benefit to be able to protect yourself or others if their or your life was in danger.

Why shouldn't the good guys be armed? You are just naive, maybe your area just has low crime, but I hope you realize that there are other areas with high crime. NYC is relatively safe as far as cities go.

 

[LegendKiller]

Unless there's a paper alternative to the handgun that I'm unaware of, this is a silly analogy.

And paper money isn't wasteful? Cut down trees so you can shove them into your wallet and use them as a medium of exchange for transactions. Let's not even get into engravers, artists, anti-counterfeiting, printing (ink), distribution, movement, retirement...etc.

Specious argument is specious.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

well.. who do you think the criminal is gonna go after? the guy whos always looking over his shoulder, afraid of being robbed... or the guy whos walking down the street confident of himself.

The one that looks like he's carrying more money, or the one that looks less likely to be able to defend himself. That's not really the point, though. Your post basically laughs at anyone that has been victimized, and that is an unproductive philosophy.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Yeah, except that was a Hollywood movie and those were the words of a racist alcoholic lunatic actor.

Who do you think is going to be making movies about you a few hundred years from now? I'd bet a million dollars the answer is nobody.

Have no interest in fame...only living my life true to my beliefs.

 

[OverVolt]

Didn't read the whole thread because it's just too loony for me but quick question - what do you have against debit cards? I can understand not agreeing with credit cards in principle - hell, my Dad worked for Citibank for 20 years, retired a millionaire and I don't remember him ever having a credit card. He thought 'they were evil' and avoided them on principle.

But what's wrong with debit cards? How has a debit card ever screwed anyone over? It's...paperless money. Not credit, but money you earned.

Because only a small portion of the money in the economy these days is even cash. Only around 5-10% of it. With debit you never actually conduct your transaction in cash, just numbers in a computer.

If the banks all went under one day, then overnight drug dealers would find themselves the only ones with any cash on hand lol. I use debit all the time but I still do about half my transactions in cash just because I like to use real cash.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

And paper money isn't wasteful? Cut down trees so you can shove them into your wallet and use them as a medium of exchange for transactions. Let's not even get into engravers, artists, anti-counterfeiting, printing (ink), distribution, movement, retirement...etc.

Specious argument is specious.

I'm not arguing over paper vs plastic vs gold vs whatever. I don't care, and living in my mom's basement she performs all monetary transactions for me anyways. The point is that whatever being a more efficient form of currency, there aren't really alternatives to the feeling of security that a handgun gets you, especially for someone that feels very strongly about self-defence like the op.

 

[OverVolt]

Paper money is a small waste to pay versus entrusting the banks 100% with all money in the country.

 

[PrinceofWands]

How many lives have you saved being in this higher level of preparedness all the time? Some might call that a colossal waste of time. Hell, I look at gearing up to ride my motorcycle to work as a waste of time. It is something I have to prepare to do vs just jumping in the car. Forget adding a firearm to that equation. No thanks... and I'm a gun owner.

Outside of work it's definitely been important several times...stopped a guy from mugging me, have caught several crimes in progress and been able to report them or interrupt them, etc. It's impossible to know how many potentially bad situations I avoided by being aware and proactive. Work-wise it let me spend 10+ years in security and related work with about the best record of crimes stopped at any company I worked for and without getting hurt even at the hospital with 200+ fights a year.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I live in the city and don't own a gun. I don't live my life in fear.

Good on you. Me either.

 

[guyver01]

Your post basically laughs at anyone that has been victimized, and that is an unproductive philosophy.

i laugh at anyone who has been victimized and runs around scared of their own shadow, thinking they're gonna be a victim at EVERY instance.

dont want to be a victim? dont ACT like one.

 

[LegendKiller]

I was robbed at gunpoint. It was part of a gang initiation. It's possible for them to file to "face their accuser" in my area and get my address somehow I had found out, and one of their fathers was a crack dealer with 3 pages of charges like assault.

Your really just an idiot is all. I can't carry in this area, so thats fine I'm not scared because of that, but it is definitely a benefit to be able to protect yourself or others if their or your life was in danger.

Why shouldn't the good guys be armed? You are just naive, maybe your area just has low crime, but I hope you realize that there are other areas with high crime. NYC is relatively safe as far as cities go.

Yeah, that's it I'm an idiot (but YOU'RE not, eh?). Your reading comprehension fails, I don't begrudge anybody their right or ability to carry. I don't fully understand it, but I don't begrudge it. So saying that you're calling me an idiot?

Statistics is a bitch, shit happens all of the time, whether you have a gun or not. Thinking that you're going to be prepared all of the time, or that you are going to prevent everything, is silly.

I've been in areas I don't like and in situations I don't like. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a woman being sexually assaulted in the hallway across my door. My apartment isn't cheap and is in a nice area. Did I go out there with a gun or even a knife? No, I assessed the situation, told my wife to call the cops and be prepared to act if needed. In many cases you're bringing a gun to a non-fight and can escalate it beyond what is needed, like this toolbag did. That's where training (situational awareness) and brains (ability to respond appropriately) comes into action. Obviously this guy thinks he's some fucking lone ranger for even making the action of drawing a fire arm in a situation that didn't even warrant it. In many states, had he even pulled his gun in that type of situation, he would be in prison, for good reason. While I support everybody's right to carry, I think that idiots like him make the situation worse. If anything, he's used as ammunition for anti-gun people to point out how gun nuts run around half cocked (or fully in this case).

You think NYC is "relatively safe"? Compared to what? I grew up in a town of 2,500 people, it's very unsafe compared to that place. There was a dude that just burned a woman to death in an elevator because she owed him 2k. There's serial rapists around and shit goes down all of the time. My first 2 weeks in the city I saw a guy jacking off to a pretty lady in the seat next to me late one night after work. I've seen fist fights and a stabbing in midtown where I work.

Do you really think some swat-ish guys walking around GCT makes me really feel safe? lol.

I just assess risk differently and respond appropriately, not putting myself into those situations. It's an 80/20 rule.

But as I said, I know specifically a guy in your situation that had CC and used it, likely saving his life. I see both sides, but I don't call him an idiot. He's smart and used appropriate force. OP? Idiot.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Frankly, I find it a bit humorous this guy rips on wasted money on credit cards and such, yet finds nothing wrong with carrying a chunk of refined steel, gunpowder, brass, lead (and other metals), plastic (leather), licensed by the state (requires tests, bureaucrats) and continual shooting (wasted cartridges) to be proficient.

Then there's the "you never know" attitude. I've been pretty drunk in the NYC subway at 4am with my wife and a couple friends and never felt threatened. I've been in several verbal arguments with people and never felt the need to even make the motion to draw a weapon. I've practiced it with my dad (who CCs), I've hunted with him and my brother, I know what it's about. I just don't understand the idea you need to carry all of the time.

Then again, I know a couple people who do and have actually used it. They weren't doing anything super dangerous.

It's a crap shoot. Personally, I think carrying a gun it way too much bother for the relative piece of mind and you'll probably never need it anyway. If things change and society breaks down then I have them and I am prepared to use them but for my day to day life it simply isn't necessary or something I want to deal with.

It's a gamble I'm willing to take. Fuck anyone who questions my decision.

I've been in situations where I was unarmed and in harms way and through being aware of my surroundings and quick thinking I've been able to get out of them. I also lived in Los Angeles during the riots in the mid 90s and I drove through areas that were being looted with a loaded .45 in my lap.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Has the OP been a victim of a crime? That would kind of explain a lot actually but nothing I've read of his posts indicates that he has been a victim of a crime... or crimes. Well, other than crimes against sanity of course. 😛

We need details for further analysis.

Some, not many. We had a few minor thefts when I was a teenager, that I finally ended up catching the thieves at and putting an end to it. Stopped a mugging on me once (probably). One minor theft fairly recently. That's about it.

I've been involved in tons of crime situations, both at work and among friends and family, or even just randomly being involved with strangers. Had a good friend raped and murdered, another raped, a few beaten nearly to death, some major robberies and theft, etc.

Oh, just remembered, there were a fair number of juvenile fights as well. I didn't include them earlier because I don't consider elementary school bullying the same as other criminal acts. But if you do, there are a bunch of those as well.

 

[LegendKiller]

I'm not arguing over paper vs plastic vs gold vs whatever. I don't care, and living in my mom's basement she performs all monetary transactions for me anyways. The point is that whatever being a more efficient form of currency, there aren't really alternatives to the feeling of security that a handgun gets you, especially for someone that feels very strongly about self-defence like the op.

The guy was talking about waste. Everything is wasteful, paper is just as wasteful as plastic and carrying a gun around could be considered very wasteful. The guy probably drives an SUV or truck which is wasteful too.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I don't really care whether the op's story is true or not. I'd rather argue about the principles of what he has argued throughout the thread, which I find more or less agreeable. Yes, his fear and actions were clearly irrational if his goal was to fix a bad situation. I've stated this multiple times. My point is that why should he morally or legally forced into passivity? For the intents of the argument, the post office worker was an attacker, not physically but it was an implicit threat. The op more or less called their bluff.

And I'm in pretty much total disagreement with you. First, absolutely I question the OPs version of events, and its more pertinent to discussing this than most of what you posted about victims and killing aggressors.

If victims were allowed to escalate situations to destroy the instigators these situations would never happen.

Really, WTF? What's fucked up is that the OP acts like he was ready to do exactly that if he had his gun on him and you appear to think that is ok.

I don't agree that he was attacked at all. Call their bluff, WTF? He made an ass of himself and thinks he didn't do anything wrong, and probably would have pulled a gun on the guy if he'd had it on him.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

i laugh at anyone who has been victimized and runs around scared of their own shadow, thinking they're gonna be a victim at EVERY instance.

dont want to be a victim? dont ACT like one.

Does this apply to rape victims?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Didn't read the whole thread because it's just too loony for me but quick question - what do you have against debit cards? I can understand not agreeing with credit cards in principle - hell, my Dad worked for Citibank for 20 years, retired a millionaire and I don't remember him ever having a credit card. He thought 'they were evil' and avoided them on principle.

But what's wrong with debit cards? How has a debit card ever screwed anyone over? It's...paperless money. Not credit, but money you earned.

They're no where near as bad of course. There is still a fee to use them (on the merchant if not the user), they still cost money to make, track, etc. They're unnecessary and a potential problem (can be stolen, etc). None of it is major really. If I had a bank account I'd 'possibly' go ahead and get one. Since I don't, and won't, it's moot, but yes I definitely see them as a reasonable middle-ground.