God? What do you think:

[HAL9000]

You can play semantic games until you're blue in the face.

The fact of the matter is that nobody has ever seen proof that god exists. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Judeo-Christian god or any other god actually exists.

Ahh now a Judeo-Christian god is a different matter, but the notion that a supreme being does exist can be logically proved, there are philosophical arguments that do prove the existence of god, given that you accept the premises they are based on.

However there are also perfect logical arguments against the existence of god.

So....

 

[HAL9000]

i am a semi-non-practicing Catholic. i haven't been to church in ages but i still say grace before most of the meals i eat when i am alone at home. i use those opportunities to sometimes go into a deeper prayer and level of thought where i try to be thankful for everything else in my life - my family, friends, job, house, etc. sometimes i will also add, "bless so and so" or "keep so and so safe" or "give so and so strength to get through that"...

so i would say, i am still at least a somewhat spiritual person, although i do not think that i am worthy of a "religious" tag per se. i do not judge anyone's beliefs, or lack thereof. how you connect with your spiritual side, or if you don't have one, is a very personal thing and i think how everyone handles it is unique. i am not a proponent of any particular religion, i believe that eventually some level of convergence of all the major religions, at least in a symbolic sense, is key to understanding how they benefit the lives of humans and always will.

these views are why when i first joined the forums back in 2004 that i regularly became offended by trolls that constantly bash religion. it might be, in my opinion, the single biggest waste of anyone's time on the internet. to think that people actually sit there and assail the beliefs of others is absolutely absurd to me in every way possible. twiddling your thumbs would be a better use of one's time than attacking someone's beliefs on the internet. it is weak, it is selfish, and it serves no purpose other than to further entrench those that engage in it in meaningless intolerance and spiteful rhetoric. just the thought of standing on a digital soapbox to declare to a certain cross-section of the population that you don't agree with their beliefs... it really seems like the best embodiment of a modern-day clown that i can think of. seriously, shut the fuck up and live your life, don't be concerned with the beliefs of others.

That's an interesting notion, rather than the eradication of religion, which is what I believe in, perhaps instead they will all unite into a single religion as they are all based on similar values anyway. Interesting.

 

[Nik]

Ahh now a Judeo-Christian god is a different matter, but the notion that a supreme being does exist can be logically proved, there are philosophical arguments that do prove the existence of god, given that you accept the premises they are based on.

However there are also perfect logical arguments against the existence of god.

So....

What part of "or any other god" is confusing to you? You're just being argumentative. I should have known better than to click the link to display your post.

 

[destrekor]

That's an interesting notion, rather than the eradication of religion, which is what I believe in, perhaps instead they will all unite into a single religion as they are all based on similar values anyway. Interesting.

See, even though I don't find myself able to believe in such things as deities or the more descriptive positions found in the various religious texts and sects, I thoroughly support such a concept.

I have enjoyed the argumentative position that posits religion is no longer necessary for mankind; I'm doubting we are anywhere near that point in our development, but eventually we will have to reach such a point.

I do honestly believe all the major religions need to be combined under a single banner, boiled down to their most simple ideals and worked into a collective system. Most importantly, I do think this approach should also be given the Jefferson Treatment (recall the Thomas Jefferson Bible).

This should ideally begin to happen once we start working toward a United Global Republic. The only fear of a global religion is thinking of how it would be spread. Religions have often spread under the most barbaric of terms, with oppression and bloodshed serving only as words that simplify that truth.

 

[HAL9000]

What part of "or any other god" is confusing to you? You're just being argumentative. I should have known better than to click the link to display your post.

I understand it completely, any other god means any supreme being, my point is there ARE whether you've read them or not logical proofs for the existence of a god.

I was under the impression that debate was acceptable :hmm:

See, even though I don't find myself able to believe in such things as deities or the more descriptive positions found in the various religious texts and sects, I thoroughly support such a concept.

I have enjoyed the argumentative position that posits religion is no longer necessary for mankind; I'm doubting we are anywhere near that point in our development, but eventually we will have to reach such a point.

I do honestly believe all the major religions need to be combined under a single banner, boiled down to their most simple ideals and worked into a collective system. Most importantly, I do think this approach should also be given the Jefferson Treatment (recall the Thomas Jefferson Bible).

This should ideally begin to happen once we start working toward a United Global Republic. The only fear of a global religion is thinking of how it would be spread. Religions have often spread under the most barbaric of terms, with oppression and bloodshed serving only as words that simplify that truth.

Yeah it's a really interesting notion, something I hadn't considered before. :hmm:

 

[totalnoob]

I understand it completely, any other god means any supreme being, my point is there ARE whether you've read them or not logical proofs for the existence of a god.

They all fail...each containing a logical fallacy or an undemonstrated premise. Give me your "proof". I will tell you the fallacy.

 

[olds]

 

[disappoint]

I'm Catholic, but what's annoying is that my I've convinced my brain of God's existence, but my heart is resisting, which seems to be in reverse.

I think proofs, or partial proofs, of God's existence can be found. But for some reason they aren't sufficient to get my heart into it.

Your heart pumps blood throughout your body. Apparently not enough to your brain for you to realize this though.

 

[HAL9000]

They all fail...each containing a logical fallacy or an undemonstrated premise. Give me your "proof". I will tell you the fallacy.

OH I completely agree, I'm not saying that there are proofs beyond doubt, but there are proofs that contain reasonable logic assuming you accept the initial premise. They are fun things to argue but there are absolutely issues with every one. The basis of philosophy is the quest for knowledge, the quest for a definitive answer to great questions. In my personal opinion it is obvious that god doesn't exist, never has, never will, but the philosophical arguments for his existence are really interesting and generally make good sense.

 

[Nik]

They do not contain reasonable logic because the premise they are based on is false.

 

[mmntech]

lol :awe:

Seriously, though. I grew up in an agnostic/deist family. I've never attended a single church service. I became an atheist following 9/11. That one event summed up the futility of religion and faith for me. Thousands of innocents needlessly slaughtered because the attackers thought this "pious" act would be rewarded in the afterlife.

Religion is just another way for the strong to control the weak. Every single one has done so. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, Shinto, or Buddhism. I could put the attrocities aside if it wasn't for the gross hypocrisy of the cloth. An old friend of my dad's grew up in an Catholic family back in Ireland. He abandoned it because he knew the priests were abusing children. The priests were also living high on the hog while the average Irishman was starving. These starving people were made to tithe their wages for them to live like feudal lords. The priests committed themselves, before the eyes of their lord, to chastity and a life of poverty. How they behaved and still behave is sickening, and Rome condones it. The same can be seen wherever the Church goes, notably in Latin America.

The Buddhist priests did the same in Tibet before the PRC invaded.

Islam claims to be the religion of peace, as long as you're a Muslim. For everyone else, slaughter seems to be condoned. At least nobody is willing to speak out against it. The religion endorses gross rights abuses, specifically against woman, who are considered equal to cattle. In Iran, people are kept under the boot of a powerful Islamic theocracy. In Afghanistan, women are killed or have acid thrown in their faces by the Islamist Taliban for simply going to school. Rape victims are punished by lashings or stoning because they were "adulterous" and "seduced" the rapist. You know, men can't control themselves.

Disputes between Hindus and Muslims have brought us close to nuclear war. The Hindu caste system has led to gross rights abuses, honour killings, and abuse of women.

Shinto became an excuse to conquer other people during the Sino-Japanese and Pacific wars. How many innocent Chinese died at Nanking at the hands of those fighting a "sacred war"?

I could go on. Every faith is guilty of crimes. My point is that these atrocities are all against the tenants of their religion. From the Koran... ""....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people." Yet 3,000 people lost their lives on September 11th, 2001 in the name of God.

I'm not against religious people exactly. If you follow a faith, oppose hypocrisy and never use it to harm others.

 

[HAL9000]

They do not contain reasonable logic because the premise they are based on is false.

Not necessarily false, but open to interpretation.

 

[Nik]

Not necessarily false, but open to interpretation.

So, conjuring ideas with absolutely no basis in reality with no evidence to support a reason to believe in the first place with the sole intention of defrauding other human beings to subjugate and control them isn't necessarily false?

 

[HAL9000]

So, conjuring ideas with absolutely no basis in reality with no evidence to support a reason to believe in the first place with the sole intention of defrauding other human beings to subjugate and control them isn't necessarily false?

You are talking about god, I am talking about logical philosophical arguments. They are based on premises open to interpretation that are not necessarily false. Feel free to read up on some philosophy then get back to me.

Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

 

[Nik]

None of that matters.

 

[HAL9000]

None of that matters.

Right.... So philosophy doesn't matter

 

[lxskllr]

Philosophy is just mental masturbation. A more cerebral form of TV. A passing amusement, but not of much use.

 

[HAL9000]

Philosophy is just mental masturbation. A more cerebral form of TV. A passing amusement, but not of much use.

I completely disagree, philosophy and philosophers have moulded and shaped all of civilisation from ancient greece to modern day, encompassing our entire system of ethics and morality, or our own perception of what we are and why we are here.

 

[bruceb]

Brought up Roman Catholic and while I do not attend church on a regular basis, I still believe there is a supreme being up there. As to what happens in the after life, we will find out when the time comes.

 

[Nik]

I completely disagree, philosophy and philosophers have moulded and shaped all of civilisation from ancient greece to modern day, encompassing our entire system of ethics and morality, or our own perception of what we are and why we are here.

It's not hard to mold and shape a primitive people. We're well beyond the philosophy stage of civilization. There's no need for superstition anymore.

 

[lxskllr]

I completely disagree, philosophy and philosophers have moulded and shaped all of civilisation from ancient greece to modern day, encompassing our entire system of ethics and morality, or our own perception of what we are and why we are here.

Exactly. It's mind control to subdue the population. "Don't be an asshole". That's the only philosophy you need in life. Everything else is just mindless guessing.

 

[preslove]

Dudes, I'm scared. Nik and neckbeard going at it might create a positive feedback loop of trolldom that will increase in energy to the point of ripping a whole in the space time continuum, letting in demons from the hell dimensions!

 

[Nik]

Dudes, I'm scared. Nik and neckbeard going at it might create a positive feedback loop of trolldom that will increase in energy to the point of ripping a whole in the space time continuum, letting in demons from the hell dimensions!

Ironic that you're the one trolling while we're having a civilized discussion :awe:

 

[HAL9000]

It's not hard to mold and shape a primitive people. We're well beyond the philosophy stage of civilization. There's no need for superstition anymore.

Philosophy = love of knowledge. Not superstition.

Exactly. It's mind control to subdue the population. "Don't be an asshole". That's the only philosophy you need in life. Everything else is just mindless guessing.

I completely disagree, Philosophy is the exact opposite of mind control, it teaches you to think for your self, question everything and be analytical. How can that be a bad thing?

 

[Nik]

Philosophy isn't the love of knowledge, it's the love of the endless discourse on subjects that no longer impact a modern world. Tribes lost in the Amazon will profit greatly from philosophy while modern, 1st world nations are hindered by it.

Science teaches you to love knowledge, provides an avenue for higher learning that actually impacts everyone, teaches you not only to question everything and be analytical, but also provides an avenue for you to test and revise your questions and analyses with real-world results.

Philosophy is for people who are detached from reality and who want an easy A in college.