God help us. Now the news is demonizing Blackwater any chance it can.

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Even when people aren't killed they don't take kindly to be fired at for not moving out of BW's way speedily enough to satisfy their want to get by.

Are you assuming that those videos released a while ago, which showed someone taking potshots at cars behind theirs, were BW employees?

If not, then why are you accusing them of doing that? What's your source?

I read this morning that BW is going to held to account for this latest incident and possibly the personnel involved will face an Iraqi court.

Do you believe they will receive a fair trial in Iraq - one that is based on sound investigative and forensic practices?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
American soldiers pay with their lives for the cowboy antics of BW. You guys can argue about the rest.

We can argue about that too... please explain the connection between BW and dead American soldiers.

BW kills innocent Iraqis. Iraqis get pissed off and join extremist groups. Extremist groups kills American soldiers. Too hard for you to understand?

bah.. no, I just consider that connection tenuous at best. After all, since US' mere presence inspires membership in those groups, who's to say how much of a factor BW plays in their recruitment?

Are you claiming that insurgent recruitment figures would decrease if BW left Iraq?

Oh come on man.

It is common to all counterinsurgency doctrine that the killing of innocent civilians contributes to the strength of the insurgency... either in absolute numbers or in support. A larger and/or better supported insurgency is of course deadlier to our occupying soldiers. Therefore when Blackwater kills innocent civilians, as seems pretty likely considering the information out there, US soldiers are more likely to be killed. This is a no brainer.

By the way, no need to mention that there is no absolute proof in these cases against Blackwater. It is a war zone, and there never will be. The evidence against them is credible however, and perhaps most importantly the Iraqis believe it to be true.

Then maybe you should donate the rope... and I think you forgot the word "allegedly" in several of your sentences.

then again, you've already determined their guilt, so why bother with semantics, right?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
American soldiers pay with their lives for the cowboy antics of BW. You guys can argue about the rest.

We can argue about that too... please explain the connection between BW and dead American soldiers.

BW kills innocent Iraqis. Iraqis get pissed off and join extremist groups. Extremist groups kills American soldiers. Too hard for you to understand?

bah.. no, I just consider that connection tenuous at best. After all, since US' mere presence inspires membership in those groups, who's to say how much of a factor BW plays in their recruitment?

Are you claiming that insurgent recruitment figures would decrease if BW left Iraq?

Oh come on man.

It is common to all counterinsurgency doctrine that the killing of innocent civilians contributes to the strength of the insurgency... either in absolute numbers or in support. A larger and/or better supported insurgency is of course deadlier to our occupying soldiers. Therefore when Blackwater kills innocent civilians, as seems pretty likely considering the information out there, US soldiers are more likely to be killed. This is a no brainer.

By the way, no need to mention that there is no absolute proof in these cases against Blackwater. It is a war zone, and there never will be. The evidence against them is credible however, and perhaps most importantly the Iraqis believe it to be true.

Then maybe you should donate the rope... and I think you forgot the word "allegedly" in several of your sentences.

then again, you've already determined their guilt, so why bother with semantics, right?

See this is where you don't have a clue. It doesn't matter what you think, it is what Iraqis think that matters in this war and how many American soldiers dies. As long as Iraqis hate US presence, there will be insurgencies against the US soldiers. Yeah BW is not the major factor in Iraqis death, the number of BW contractor is small compared to the US military. But the way they operates, the way they don't have to answer to any court, and the few documented incidents by cowboy BW contractors seriously damaged the way Iraqis perceives American presence. Anybody with half a brain can understand this, unless you are some stubborn rightwinger who refuse to face the reality.

 

[piasabird]

It is people in security firms just like blackwater, that are expected to protect people like reporters and others when they go to Iraq. This is caused by our military not being large enough.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: piasabird
It is people in security firms just like blackwater, that are expected to protect people like reporters and others when they go to Iraq. This is caused by our military not being large enough.

I think we have a winner...

Without private security contractors - Blackwater the most prolific - can you imagine? It literally would not be safe for any journalist or photographer (as if the conditions are that great as it stands now...) and we'd be using precious resources needed to fight insurgents on shuffling reporters around the country.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: piasabird
It is people in security firms just like blackwater, that are expected to protect people like reporters and others when they go to Iraq. This is caused by our military not being large enough.

I think we have a winner...

Without private security contractors - Blackwater the most prolific - can you imagine? It literally would not be safe for any journalist or photographer (as if the conditions are that great as it stands now...) and we'd be using precious resources needed to fight insurgents on shuffling reporters around the country.

That would be . . . . incorrect, because . . . .

""The surge is working""


/sarcasm

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
American soldiers pay with their lives for the cowboy antics of BW. You guys can argue about the rest.

We can argue about that too... please explain the connection between BW and dead American soldiers.

BW kills innocent Iraqis. Iraqis get pissed off and join extremist groups. Extremist groups kills American soldiers. Too hard for you to understand?

bah.. no, I just consider that connection tenuous at best. After all, since US' mere presence inspires membership in those groups, who's to say how much of a factor BW plays in their recruitment?

Are you claiming that insurgent recruitment figures would decrease if BW left Iraq?

Oh come on man.

It is common to all counterinsurgency doctrine that the killing of innocent civilians contributes to the strength of the insurgency... either in absolute numbers or in support. A larger and/or better supported insurgency is of course deadlier to our occupying soldiers. Therefore when Blackwater kills innocent civilians, as seems pretty likely considering the information out there, US soldiers are more likely to be killed. This is a no brainer.

By the way, no need to mention that there is no absolute proof in these cases against Blackwater. It is a war zone, and there never will be. The evidence against them is credible however, and perhaps most importantly the Iraqis believe it to be true.

Then maybe you should donate the rope... and I think you forgot the word "allegedly" in several of your sentences.

then again, you've already determined their guilt, so why bother with semantics, right?

No genius, I haven't determined their guilt. What I said (and I'll say it again because people tend not to read on here) is that it won't be possible to conclusively prove their guilt. It DOES appear LIKELY that they are guilty however, and that's all that matters. Since counterinsurgency is at least 50% public relations, having a group that is credibly believed to kill civilians indescriminately is a horrible group to have on your side when you're trying to convince people you're there to help. That's why they should get the boot.

And no, I didn't miss any "allegedly"'s in there. I said it was likely that they have done so, and well... as per the US Army report on that big incident, the Army believes they did it too.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: piasabird
It is people in security firms just like blackwater, that are expected to protect people like reporters and others when they go to Iraq. This is caused by our military not being large enough.

That's because the TURD IN CHIEF and his criminal gang so stupid, that, even assuming they could justify their war of LIES, they forgot to build an army capable of carrying out their illegal, they ignored all information from competent internal sources that ran counter to their blind ambitions:

• They ignored all warnings about the possiblity of an attack like 9/11, despite explicit warnings from people like Richard Clarke, former terrorisim advisor to Presidents Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. Richard Clarke also warned Bush that Saddam probably was not tied to 9/11.
  
  The Bushwhackos didn't want to hear that so they did what any good exec would do -- They fired him.
  
• They claimed their pre-war planning included plenty of troops to handle foreseeable problems in the aftermath of their invasion, despite warnings from Army Chief of Staff, Eric Shinseki that they would need around 400,000 troops to do the job.
  
  The Bushwhackos administration didn't want to hear that so they did what any good exec would do -- They fired him.
  
• Before Bush started his war of lies, Ambassador Joseph Wilson was sent to Niger to investigate reports that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium. He returned and informed that the reports were false.
  
  The Bushwhackos administration didn't want to hear that so they did what any good adminstration would do. They outed his wife, Valerie Plame's identity as a covert CIA operative, blowing off her value to our national security and endangering her life and the lives of everyone who ever worked with her anywhere in the world.

A better idea would be to conscript Blackwater's guys into the U.S. military, give them the same pay and the same inferior protective gear our REAL American troops get and subject them to the same rules of engagement and U.S. and Iraqi laws our REAL American troops face.

If they're such patriots, they couldn't refuse... could they? :roll:

 

[palehorse]

Once again, does anyone here believe the BW employees would receive a fair trial in an Iraqi court?

Is "trial by perception" acceptable when it comes to American contractors in Iraq?

If not, then how could anyone, with a good conscience, encourage such a farce?

 

[theeedude]

Blackwater is like Gitmo. It undermines our cause and needs to go.

 

[Lemon law]

Cheer up, Condi Rice has the solution. She proposes a video Camera on every blackwater vehicle and that or more US hired babysitter accompany every blackwater Convoy to make sure they don't get itchy trigger fingers. I assume the extra costs will be passed on to the US taxpayer and no congressional action will be needed or required.

Sure sounds to me that we would find it far cheaper to do the security ourselves and give blackwater and similar security firms the old heave ho.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Once again, does anyone here believe the BW employees would receive a fair trial in an Iraqi court?

Is "trial by perception" acceptable when it comes to American contractors in Iraq?

If not, then how could anyone, with a good conscience, encourage such a farce?

Once again do Iraqi civilians get a fair trial by blackwater personnel? Sure looks like shoot first and ask questions later to me, the US military, and the rest of the world.

Thereafter no public accountability exists. How can any with a good conscience permit such a farce? Only in the mind of GWB&co. could such a system of no accountability be set up!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Cheer up, Condi Rice has the solution. She proposes a video Camera on every blackwater vehicle and that or more US hired babysitter accompany every blackwater Convoy to make sure they don't get itchy trigger fingers. I assume the extra costs will be passed on to the US taxpayer and no congressional action will be needed or required.

Sure sounds to me that we would find it far cheaper to do the security ourselves and give blackwater and similar security firms the old heave ho.

OK, no problem. Perhaps you could be so kind and point to the 100,000 highly trained experts in personnel and convoy security we have hiding somewhere in our military rank and file...?

Oh? What's that? We don't have anyone qualified lying around doing nothing? Well then I guess we'll stick with the contractors!

I think Condi's solution is perfectly acceptable IF it's enforced properly - routine checks of the recording equipment, routine ride-alongs by the FBI, etc.

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Once again, does anyone here believe the BW employees would receive a fair trial in an Iraqi court?

Is "trial by perception" acceptable when it comes to American contractors in Iraq?

If not, then how could anyone, with a good conscience, encourage such a farce?

hmmm... then why would you want to keep fighting for freedom and democracy in Iraq if you don't have the faith that they'll live up to the ideas you want them to?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Once again, does anyone here believe the BW employees would receive a fair trial in an Iraqi court?

Is "trial by perception" acceptable when it comes to American contractors in Iraq?

If not, then how could anyone, with a good conscience, encourage such a farce?

Once again do Iraqi civilians get a fair trial by blackwater personnel? Sure looks like shoot first and ask questions later to me, the US military, and the rest of the world.

Thereafter no public accountability exists. How can any with a good conscience permit such a farce? Only in the mind of GWB&co. could such a system of no accountability be set up!

Well, if it looks like that to you then it must be true. How do you know who shot first again?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Once again, does anyone here believe the BW employees would receive a fair trial in an Iraqi court?

Is "trial by perception" acceptable when it comes to American contractors in Iraq?

If not, then how could anyone, with a good conscience, encourage such a farce?

hmmm... then why would you want to keep fighting for freedom and democracy in Iraq if you don't have the faith that they'll live up to the ideas you want them to?

simply because they are not there yet.

But we're working hard; and, someday, I hope to point to them and tell my grandchildren that I helped them become something great.

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Blackwater is like Gitmo. It undermines our cause and needs to go.

Somehow you comment is lost on those who think "winning hearts and minds" means stopping hearts and splattering brains.

As for the OP. Damn right BW should be raked over the coals. They are undermining the US mission in Iraq.... and now that the military is publicly complaining about this fact I expect all who support the troops to support accountable mercenary forces who improve America's image overseas.