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God help us. Now the news is demonizing Blackwater any chance it can.
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LegendKiller
Lifer
1. People don't always realize what's going on, then when they do, they are alarmed at what they missed, it's a natural reaction.
2. Soldiers have a difficult job in a dangerous environment too, but why are they held to a higher standard?
3. The entire company doesn't have a good track record. Iraq, New Orleans, everywhere. It doesn't help that they are given no-bid cost+ contracts, which are the epitome of war profiteering.
4. It's not a rogue soldier. If you read the book Blackwater, which I doubt you will do, and listen to testimony from somebody other than Erik Prince or his cronies, you would realize that many former blackwater employees state that the problem is much larger than many people acknowledge.
LegendKiller
Lifer
You judge by character? Does that mean they don't have valid points if you don't agree with their politcal philosophy? How close minded is that?
You may not have said every dissenter is a lefty, but you certainly act like that, judging by your character and actions.
You are they.
No, it means when I use the term "lefty" it is appropriate.
That's because you're looking at it from a lefty perspective.
I don't subscribe to the "with us or against us" mantra, so, I'm afraid not.
Why do the lefties have such a problem with being called exactly what they are? People call me a "rightie" or what-have-you on a daily basis and I don't get all hot under the collar about it. It is almost as though they are ashamed of their place in the political spectrum.
LegendKiller
Lifer
Ahhh, so if what he speaks is true, then it's still appropriate, because any person who may agree with him is a "lefty" also, despite knowing what he says is true and not being a "lefty"?
As a "righty" and not a RINO, I abhor the profiteering that Blackwater evidences. Cost+, Nobid, no accountability, now lawfullness countracts are *NOT* something any person who is a "righty" would support, since "rightys" are for fiscal responsibility, small government, no sovereign debt, and small taxes. How could you be a "righty" and support something which encourages waste, discourages cost-cutting, and exemplifies the elimination of oversight?
How could such a thing be labeled as anything but profiteering?
Ahhh yes, I must be a lefty if I am a true righty, not a RINO like you.
No, you do prescribe to the with us or against us mantra. Why is it that "righties" are afraid of being labled what they truly are? Blood sucking, big government, big taxes, big spending, big deficit spending, big sovereign debt, corporate whores?
It's ironic that of the last 4 Presidents, only 1 didn't rack up more than 10% of the current fiscal debt and he was what was considered a "lefty". When did the "righty" cause become so misguided?
Sinsear
Diamond Member
Gonna need some facts here to back that up. While I would not bet against some getting through, Blackwater is very clear:
Requirements for contract work for Blackwater
palehorse
Lifer
I know plenty of BW operators, personally, who are/were exceptional soldiers and officers. Blackwater also requires an Honorable Discharge for employment. I've turned down two offers from them myself...
I've met several who are difficult to work with, and some who I'd never want to fight next to, but the majority of the security contractors I work with, every day, are very decent people and operators.
I don't know in what capacity you've worked with them, but my honest opinion was formed in both theaters, working with contractors from every company, every day.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
Ok, i'm willing to give them a chance if you can explain to me how they can react completely opposite of what any mil. ordered troops would in case of a threat, how they can operate without regards to ranks because they don't have any.
My experience with them has been regarding transporting them, horseshoe and bottle route, i personally don't view them as military and i have no respect for their actions.
Now you surely are an officer just like me, to get there you have served your time in battle, so have i (i still do), and you know know as well as i do that there is a system that works, you know as well as i do that NO military unit would have opened fire individually without being cleared to do so and NO ONE would have ever authorised such an order when going into a heavily populated area. You know as well as i do what the procedures are and to draw fire is NOT one of them.
I wouldn't want them around me if we were taking hostile fire.
palehorse
Lifer
fair enough...
1) Their TTP's, in the case of the recent ambush, were exactly those of every infantry unit I've ever been in. Remember, one of their vehicles became disabled, so they stopped, formed a defensive position, and returned fire. The only question is whether or not they controlled their fire, or intentionally shot at everything that moved. And neither of us has the answer to that.
2) They have an unspoken internal rank structure that is very similar to every other Special Mission Unit in the world. They also take orders from the agency reps they are hired to protect. Very rarely have I seen them tell a military person what to do, and most often that has been when a new/young soldier is doing something stupid - and they correct him or her on the spot like any decent leader would.
Well, knowing many of them personally, they generally get my respect.
It appears that our TTP's were much different than yours when I was downrange in the infantry. When ambushed, we put the lead out instantly, and either A) fled the scene as quickly as possible, or B) stopped to defend any disable vehicles in our convoy until the enemy was defeated or retreated.
In fact, the Taliban loved to hit us in populated areas in hopes of drawing fire into civilians. We were VERY careful during those engagements, but sometimes it really came down to living or dying - and I choose living every time.
The enemy knows we are overly cautious in populated areas, so they often hit us there on purpose. As a result, civilians often get caught in the crossfire. It's sad, but it sure beats dying, and you really can't blame anyone for defending themselves...
FACT: We do NOT lay our own ambushes in areas where innocent civilians gather... but our enemies don't seem to read the same Laws of War books that we do...
Many of them are some of the best trained operators in the world. I've actually been under fire with them, more than once, and learned a LOT from watching them fight and move. At no point did I see them do anything controversial, illegal, or in contrast with my military orders and TTP's.
I guess it's just a matter of perception...
PS: I'm an NCO, not an officer... but I may be going the Warrant route, or receive a direct commission, soon... we'll see! 😉
It irritates me more that some dimwits are willing to look the other way and ignore Blackwater's crimes if the charges are true. Several retired generals have stated publicly that Blackwater has put our real military troops in greater danger because their unregulated cowboy antics are negative examples that serve Al Qaeda's cause and have heightened animosity against Americans, in general.
There's also a lot of resentment against them from our regular troops because the BW cowboys are paid exponentially more than our troops whose lives are every bit as much on the line, every day.
At the root of the problem, there's no excuse for farming out work that should be in the domain of our military. If they're not up to it, it's just another Bushwhacko failure on their way to total collapse of all reason and ethics.
If the actual missions assigned to BW would be illegal if undertaken by our military, they should be stopped, now, and anyone from our government who responsible for planning or assigning such illegal operations should be tried for the crimes committed under their direction.
Look guys the fundamental problem here is that BW and it's operators are undermining the hearts and minds operations that our real military guys are trying to conduct. Every time a civilian is killed by accident, his family, his tribe, his neighbors are going to all hate us, permanently.
This is tantamount to sabotaging our mission there, 1 step forward 2 steps back. They have a reputation, built up over the years for this kind of stuff, this isn't the only incident, just the final straw.
We can never hope to get out if we allow them to continue their operations as-is in Iraq. It would be very easy to switch to another company to provide this kind of security, perhaps one without so much baggage. But Erik Prince being who he is, with his/daddy's connections, this isn't going to happen, which is why we have no bid contracts, and the stifling of even the smallest bit of oversight.
This is tantamount to sabotaging our mission there, 1 step forward 2 steps back. They have a reputation, built up over the years for this kind of stuff, this isn't the only incident, just the final straw.
We can never hope to get out if we allow them to continue their operations as-is in Iraq. It would be very easy to switch to another company to provide this kind of security, perhaps one without so much baggage. But Erik Prince being who he is, with his/daddy's connections, this isn't going to happen, which is why we have no bid contracts, and the stifling of even the smallest bit of oversight.
RightIsWrong
Diamond Member
Uhh....all reports are that they fired first, not "returned" fire.
Also, I haven't been hearing any flack about the fact that they have recruited and hired persons that have been trained by the likes of Pinochet.
Full story
I'm wondering what is the true underlying definition of "the Blackwater system"? Could it be that they are finding people that are willing to do ANYTHING that their leader says up to and including a coup? Just food for thought.
StageLeft
No Lifer
Badly-aimed; they should be upset at those not paying them, not those getting more because they found somebody willing to pay them.
Iraq is bigger than BW or any PMC. In fact, the money they get is chump change compared to the greater war costs and they represent as small percentage of boots on the ground. They may be part of the problem, but not the most part of it.
Of course. Many did retire from the military as elites and realized they can make a heck of a lot more privately. I'm sure some had the best US training and in BW continued to be trained therefore making some of them totally up to par with US elite, because that's exactly what they used to be. I would guess that their average training/rank is better than those in the military as a whole, since many of them are retired vets.
Fern
Elite Member
No, they are not covered under the UCMJ. Why should they be? They're not US military.
Some time ago the coalition agreement was posted here. They are covered (governed by) under a number of things. US law appreared to be one of them. In fact the FBI is investigating and has said it will refer it's findings (if necessary) to the appropriate authorities.
Also, the Iraqi gov can bring the foreign contractors under it's domestic law at any time it chooses.
Fern
Fern
Elite Member
Ummm.. Newspaper reports here indicate that the UK has 5,500 troops in Iraq (soon to be 4,500). I don't how large your military is, but ours is stretched.
Further, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that we're running a lot more Diplomats etc around Iraq than you guys.
I'm also gonna guess that only a fraction of the private securtity contractors are used by our State Dept (whom I do prefer use our own troops). Reconstruction companies etc need to provide their security by using the PCs.
Fern
Lemon law
Lifer
While the debate rages here, a more meaningful debate rages in congress because congress has the power to change the rules. And is moving to do just that with link from yahoo news.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ux4df6vCyJIAbPQbqs0NUE
As can be seen the bill is likely to pass the house, its questionable in the Senate with a unified GOP probably able to kill it there. And even then, GWB is basically on record as saying it won't get get past his veto pen. It might be then be much harder to over ride a Presidential veto.
But I also point out the congress with the power of the purse may be able to prevent a dime of money being spent on any private security firms thereby making any laws a moot point. And at the same time its possible that the Iraqi government may either elect to subject such security firms to Iraqi laws or just boot them out of the country.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ux4df6vCyJIAbPQbqs0NUE
As can be seen the bill is likely to pass the house, its questionable in the Senate with a unified GOP probably able to kill it there. And even then, GWB is basically on record as saying it won't get get past his veto pen. It might be then be much harder to over ride a Presidential veto.
But I also point out the congress with the power of the purse may be able to prevent a dime of money being spent on any private security firms thereby making any laws a moot point. And at the same time its possible that the Iraqi government may either elect to subject such security firms to Iraqi laws or just boot them out of the country.
brokendolly
Banned
Maybe they can have a march with torches through the streets at night to raise morale.
Oh wait, blackwater, not shirt..my bad, so easy to confuse the two.
Oh wait, blackwater, not shirt..my bad, so easy to confuse the two.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
Obviously as long as it is a GOP backed Corporate entity it's perfectly OK with the Bush supporters.
Very sad
jonks
Lifer
It's my understanding that our administration banned the Iraqi government from prosecuting contractors in Iraqi courts beginning with the passage of Coalition Provisional Authority Order 17 in 2004. There been an update to that?
Hm. Some commentary:
Order 17 (.PDF Link) is the Coalition Provisional Authority rule Bremer issued that governs security contractors. According to Order 17, contractors are subject to registration with the Iraqi ministry of the interior. However, the order also says that in fulfilling their contracts, PSCs are not subject to Iraqi law. That may sound shocking, but Taylor explained it?s anything but.
?[Order 17] said ? and this where everybody moved the language around and thought that they were being sneaky ? it said any action that is required to fulfill an authorized and or legal contract cannot be considered a crime under Iraqi law,? Taylor said. ?Okay, rape, murder, smuggling, sex abuse, child molestation, are never actions that are required to fulfill a contract. Therefore they could be tried under Iraqi law, under a military territorial jurisdiction act, under the war crimes act, under the victims of trafficking and violence protection act ? I can go on. . . . It made nobody immune to the law.?
LegendKiller
Lifer
There are blatant examples, such as sex abuse, child molestation, rape, and outright robbery that will get classified as such. However, when it comes down to murder, or as we have seen, smuggling, the definitions and "skates" allowed to the PMCs become a bit odd.
For example, as we have already seen, shooting victimes that have been shot in the back of the head are classified as insurgency related murders. Those in the front or anywhere else are classified as "normal" events.
People call what Blackwater did, murder, but others get stuck in the quagmire of semantics and start to play with definitions. Other cases, it's "he said vs he said". Finally, there's outright manipulation by the State Department to keep the PMCs safe from prosecution, as was the case in smuggling and now these other recent events.
The system is corrupt because it's driven by money. The *only* reason why they are there is money. Not national pride or just cause, but money. If they were there for any other reason they'd be paid a small premium over a normal grunt and take that. However, they act outside of normal command, are poorly regulated and observed, and are thus vastly more prone to run amok.
You can be sure that Erik Prince, as influential, rich, powerful, and religious as he is, has quite a bit of influence. More than likely he has Condi on speed dial, or at least can get her direct secretary. Do you seriously think we'd be as protected if we ran around Iraq shooting first and asking questions later?
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