GM's Performance Division planning high-performance future for automaker

[Xenon14]

mmm... 350Z

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: NFS4

So your telling me that 40 Hp out of a supercharger is not detuned, when the normally asperated version was getting 200 Hp. Yeah right.

To me, "tuned" means tweaking an engine without slapping on turbos and superchargers.

Now if the 3800 made 200 HP and 240 HP naturally aspirated, I'd consider the 200 HP variant to be "detuned."

Honda's 3.2 liter V6 makes 225 HP in the CL and 260 HP in the CL Type-S
Toyota's 3.0 liter V6 makes 192 HP in the Camry and 220 HP in the Highlander
Nissan's 3.5 liter V6 makes 240 HP in the Altima and 287 HP in the 350Z
Chevy's LS1 made anywhere from 305HP in the Camaro to 405 HP in the Z06

ALL NATURALLY ASPIRATED

Now THAT is what I consider the difference between tuned and detuned.

The 3800 is a great motor. GM could very easily push it to make 250+ hp all n/a, but then you have to look at what GM is using for its target audience : daily drivers that don't need to be wound up to get where you're going which is EXACTLY what you have to do with a CL or TL-S or the Toyota 3.0.

I've driven every car with the exception of the 'vette you listed and I can tell you, save the LS1's, the 3800 has better power delivery on demand than any car you listed. And this is AFTER driving a Maxima on a road trip for 4 hours. Its a nice car and I had it up 140+ (stupid young me) but when you mash the gas and you want to go NOW, the 3800 has any other 6 cylinder beat. Easily.

And BTW, you should know that the GTP uses a roots type blower - one of the most inefficient and low cost blowers to slap on any car. 40 to the crank is a good gain out of it having the car all bottled up as it is. My friends GTP is easily putting out 280+ tq to the wheels with less than $500 worth of mods to it.

I'm not dogging the competition, but the 3800 is a excellent motor put in alot of cookie cutter crap cars from GM.

 

[NFS4]

The Toyota 3.0 does NOT need to be wound up. I can get great power from any rev range in the Highlander and passing is never a problem. I think that VSC has saved me a couple of times when I've made some quick dashes around 90 degree city turns Granted, the 220 HP 3.0 V6 is strapped to a 3600 lb SUV, but it is still plenty powerful.

Also, the VQ has power all over the rev range so I'm not sure I follow you there. What year Maxima were you driving? Considering that an Altima 3.5SE would dust any factory GTP, I hardly see where it is lacking in any area compared to the GTP.

And last time I checked, Accords and Camrys each outsell the Grand Prix 3:1 and 4:1 respectively, so I guess that Americans aren't that impressed with the 3800 GM knows this and they are now fixing it. Good for them.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: NFS4
The Toyota 3.0 does NOT need to be wound up. I can get great power from any rev range in the Highlander and passing is never a problem. I think that VSC has saved me a couple of times when I've made some quick dashes around 90 degree city turns Granted, the 220 HP 3.0 V6 is strapped to a 3600 lb SUV, but it is still plenty powerful.

Also, the VQ has power all over the rev range so I'm not sure I follow you there. What year Maxima were you driving? Considering that an Altima 3.5SE would dust any factory GTP, I hardly see where it is lacking in any area compared to the GTP.

And last time I checked, Accords and Camrys each outsell the Grand Prix 3:1 and 4:1 respectively, so I guess that Americans aren't that impressed with the 3800 GM knows this and they are now fixing it. Good for them.

No, the general public doesn't care for the 3800. Its only a rather small portion of people that actually know the roots of the motor and what its capable of. GM toned it down on purpose, unfortunately its a little to docile.

I drove a 2002 Maxima SE. The car has exceptional power above 5500rpm, but only tolerable amounts of power below that. Any 3800 powered car has pull right from around 2k depending on its weight.

And a 3.5 SE Altima doesn't dust a GTP. God, I get tired of having these converstaions sometime... just like every else knows, its what comes out on the streets that matters. I've seen a stock Altima put down a 14.8 at the track with a good driver. My friends stock GTP put out a 14.7 2 weeks after he got it. They're both big bulky cars but its really not even worth comparing them further.

Of course, there's always the freak cars... I've read of Altimas putting 14.5s down stock... and then I've read of GTPs making 14.3's stock. Its all net talk. I go with what I've experienced.

I'd also take into cosideration that GM has an entire line of different brandnames with the same chassis/powerplant. Combine Grand Prix/Impala/Malibu/Regal/Intrigue/Alero ect... into one, and you'd get a nice competitive number right up there with Honda and Toyota.

Anyways, I'm done with my counter-point. There are just a lot of things to consider.

 

[ElFenix]

you do realize that in order to have the same engine for all models, and just bolt on the supercharger, that it needs to have a lower compression ratio or the boost will blow up the engine, right? seems like it was designed for the forced induction from the ground up to me. its not detuned, its a different design philosophy.

plus it uses regular gas. you want to advance the timing so it uses premium like the VQ does and then compare.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: TuffGuy

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: ElFenix
woot! new camaro! hopefully something a little smaller with just the straight 6 in it. get a smaller car with that much power, lots of fun. they already have the corvette, they don't need one thats basically the same thing, detuned, with shoddy build.

It's a "Pony Car" though, if you are looking to GM for Auto-X, don't

Also I think the stright 6 is longer then the LS1

hmmmm.... wasn't someone telling me that the camaro is great for auto-x?

Nope I said it was "A great car for what it was desighned for" which is an out of the box drag racing car. ButI also said it's fine for driving around on any normal street and can take turns just fine.

And don't start on drag racing, atleast the people here who do drag race get to do it atleast once a week if they want for under $30 and they can do it legally and in real life not on the playstation

 

[Howard]

We're not talking pimped out turbocharged bullcrap

Better than stickers, a heavy wing, and a farty muffler.

I'll take a pushrod small or big block V8 anyday over these highly strung engines anyday.

Highly strung? Efficient is more like it. Honda could probably build a better 427 than Chevy.

you do realize that in order to have the same engine for all models, and just bolt on the supercharger, that it needs to have a lower compression ratio or the boost will blow up the engine, right

First of all, too much boost for a given compression ratio will cause knocking. Something might fail, but the engine won't blow up, unless you're running boost like Per Eklund's Pikes Peak Saab 9-3 Turbo. Also, if the compression ratio is already low, there won't be any problems. I'm not sure that the blowers on 3800s give all that much boost anyway.

 

[Cobra]

Lest anyone be confused, I am not knocking Nissan's engine, just pointing out that torque is what accelerates a vehicle and the more you have at lower rpms the better. American engine manufacturers in the past have not needed to go the small displacement high rpm route to get Hp. That, however is changing.

By highly strung I mean that in order to get performance you have to get these smaller engines higher in the rpm band to reach the torque and hp peaks necessary for maximum performance.

Just look at the torque/horsepower curves for the facts. In addition transmission gear ratios play an important role in overall performance. Very often american cars do not have optimal gear ratios for performance due to fleet CAFE constraints.

Do I think American manufacturers have some work to do. Yes. But they will always put profit ahead of everything as long as they are achieving their market share goals.

 

[John]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
<-- Saving his pocket change for a Silverado SS

That thing is ugly. It has the Crapalanche front end and the exhaust tip is a joke. What's up with the wheels?? It has NO ponies under the hood either. Booooooooooo

<--- Biased Lightning owner, but still speaks the truth.

 

[TuffGuy]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: TuffGuy

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: ElFenix
woot! new camaro! hopefully something a little smaller with just the straight 6 in it. get a smaller car with that much power, lots of fun. they already have the corvette, they don't need one thats basically the same thing, detuned, with shoddy build.

It's a "Pony Car" though, if you are looking to GM for Auto-X, don't

Also I think the stright 6 is longer then the LS1

hmmmm.... wasn't someone telling me that the camaro is great for auto-x?

Nope I said it was "A great car for what it was desighned for" which is an out of the box drag racing car. ButI also said it's fine for driving around on any normal street and can take turns just fine.

And don't start on drag racing, atleast the people here who do drag race get to do it atleast once a week if they want for under $30 and they can do it legally and in real life not on the playstation

I was referring to Radeon.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: John

Originally posted by: vi_edit
<-- Saving his pocket change for a Silverado SS

That thing is ugly. It has the Crapalanche front end and the exhaust tip is a joke. What's up with the wheels?? It has NO ponies under the hood either. Booooooooooo

<--- Biased Lightning owner, but still speaks the truth.

Yeh, parts of it need some work...the flaring nostrils up front first and foremost. Nothing a little body color matching can't solve. That'll help immensely right there.

As for the exhaust tip, I've seen two different looks. The under the back wheel like in the pic, and just a normal looking exhaust like the other silverado's have.

About the power, I wouldn't call 345 horsepower and 380 lb-ft of torque weak. Sure it's not the 380/450 that the '02 Lightning puts out, but it's N/A too. Slap a S/C on the SS and we'll see who's slow

And, the best thing about the SS - IT'S FUNCTIONAL! I can actually drive it in the winter, haul more than two people, and have a back seat to put things into. Several things you can't do with the "L". I'll sacrafice some raw power for functionality.

 

[SuperSix]

Given GM's STRONG truck engines, I hope that they can filter that expertise down to the passenger car lineup. B/C other than the LS1 and Northstar, I can't really think of any decent GM passenger car engines...

Let's not forget the venerable 3800! Nearly bulletproof. Oh no! It's got PUSHRODS! THE HORRORS!

Still one of the longest-running most dependable engines on the road today.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: TuffGuy

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: TuffGuy

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: ElFenix
woot! new camaro! hopefully something a little smaller with just the straight 6 in it. get a smaller car with that much power, lots of fun. they already have the corvette, they don't need one thats basically the same thing, detuned, with shoddy build.

It's a "Pony Car" though, if you are looking to GM for Auto-X, don't

Also I think the stright 6 is longer then the LS1

hmmmm.... wasn't someone telling me that the camaro is great for auto-x?

Nope I said it was "A great car for what it was desighned for" which is an out of the box drag racing car. ButI also said it's fine for driving around on any normal street and can take turns just fine.

And don't start on drag racing, atleast the people here who do drag race get to do it atleast once a week if they want for under $30 and they can do it legally and in real life not on the playstation

I was referring to Radeon.

I still stand by what I said in a previous thread - F-Bodys are good Auto-X cars. Its a drag strip car, no quesitons there, but its not limited to that. Stock and modified, F-Bodys are very capable cars at the dragstrip or at auto-x.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: SuperSix

Given GM's STRONG truck engines, I hope that they can filter that expertise down to the passenger car lineup. B/C other than the LS1 and Northstar, I can't really think of any decent GM passenger car engines...

Let's not forget the venerable 3800! Nearly bulletproof. Oh no! It's got PUSHRODS! THE HORRORS!

Still one of the longest-running most dependable engines on the road today.

I was going to mention that, but most people here wouldn't understand it... too bad.

 

[Howard]

I believe the GNX used something similar to the 3800.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: Yucky
I believe the GNX used something similar to the 3800.

All Grand Nationals used the "series 1" 3800. This motor was also found in different forms in cars like the first generation Lumina, Bonneville, and Regal.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: bigshot
Up until the past couple of years, they had some of the sleekest cars on the market. Enter Aztek, Escalade, Avalanche, etc...... I don't want a car that looks like it needs a nose job.

those are not cars, they are trucks or hybrid such as the aztek. I find the escalade to be quite nice to the eye

you forgot another engine they make which is one of the best in the industry, the 3800 in the Pontiac Grand Prix GT and GTP and in the monte Carlo SS. This engine is bulletproof, has lots of power, and gets better gas milage than most 4-cylinders

You mean the hulking 3.8 liter V6 that makes only 200HP and needs supercharging JUST to get 240HP and still can't beat a 240HP 3.5 liter Altima w/an automatic...let alone a manual???

I've driven many iterations of the 3.8 liter V6 and it is nowhere as smooth, quiet or refined as Honda, Toyota, or Nissan's V6's.

To me, the 3.0 liter 220HP V6 in our Highlander has a LOVELY engine note. It is smooth as butta and revs like it's on crack I've love turning off the radio and lowering the windows just to hear that bitch sing

In all fairness, comparing a 240hp Altima to a 240hp Grand Prix performance-wise isn't fair....the Grand Prix must weigh a significant amount more. If they put the 240hp in a Grand Am, that would be a fair comparison.

 

[SuperSix]

Originally posted by: Radeon

Originally posted by: Yucky
I believe the GNX used something similar to the 3800.

All Grand Nationals used the "series 1" 3800. This motor was also found in different forms in cars like the first generation Lumina, Bonneville, and Regal.

True.. Back then it was a "3.8L", not a 3800. At the time it was a Buick piece, now it's a GM corporate block. The Turbo Buicks (84-87 Regal, T-Type, "T", Grand National, WE4, GNX) used a slightly beefed up block, but essentially the same as the NA models.

I had 225k on my 87 Riviera when I donated it.. Electrical gremlins killed that car..

The motor's still used extensively today. Some car magazine bitched that it still had pushrods.. again... THE HORRORS!!..

If it ain't broke...

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: NFS4
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=&content_code=02847914

In a speech Wednesday to Detroit-based auto writers, Mark Reuss, executive director of GM's Performance Division, said GM plans to:


Build at least one high-performance model for each division, a vehicle that leverages the division's performance heritage, such as Super Sport or SS models for Chevrolet and GTO for Pontiac.


Look a for a suitable rear-wheel drive platform for a next generation Chevrolet Camaro.


Take on Honda and other import-brands with its own array of high-performance four- and six-cylinder engines.

Given GM's STRONG truck engines, I hope that they can filter that expertise down to the passenger car lineup. B/C other than the LS1 and Northstar, I can't really think of any decent GM passenger car engines...

There is also the 3800 v6 buick engine found in the Bonneville and was also the engine used in the old Grand National. That engine was used as the basis for an engine used in Indy cars. Design is getting long in the tooth though.

 

[KokomoGST]

Granted the GN is a FANTASTIC car and Fbodies are great as well (agree with that "good for autoX and drag" comment)... but the fact that GM is still using the 3800 series engine without truly improving it radically or developing newer, better engines based on the lessons learned from it. It smacks of corporate laziness and greed. I definitely like how Lutz is pushing GM though. They need to listen to him more!

I honestly think that most engine power #s are pretty severely inflated or misadvertised by the manufacturers anywho. The 200hp Prelude puts down ~160hp to the wheels... the 200hp 2000 Eclipse GT is similar. Also, even if you had a Cougar with 200hp at the crank, you're also pulling a BOAT of a car. 160 horse in a friggin CRX would whoop you HARD.

Personally, I don't believe in ever calling factory cars tuned... even if it's a friggin Ferrari. For me tuned means bettering the factory and squeezing more out of your engine's potential.

"No RickyRice, having NAAWWWSSSSS does not mean you have a tuned car"

EDIT: increasing the compression ratio on your turbo car doesn't neccessarily HAVE TO increase knock... especially if you've got sufficently cooled air or some method of reducing detonation. That's why even tuned NA cars can benefit from race gas. Heck, some people use propane or water injection. And for most factory cars (esp factory NONturbo cars) increased boost will either hole the piston or snap the piston rod like a twig. There are few factory turbo engines that can handle more than 400hp that weren't already designed for nearly 300hp already.

 

[LAUST]

90% of the gain on those is higher compression better flow heads, the other 2 major contributors to the LS6 is the intake manifold and the CAM