Gm's old Delphi parts division wants a 68% pay cut for its UAW employees..

[Zebo]

I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.

you guys are. You justify and even take a certian amount of joy in seeing these workers displaced as "capitalism" when in fact they are competing with socialist exporters. Companies where the whole nation subsidizes thier few exporters with life time pensions and health care. In effect while proclaiming to be a champion of capitalism you are susidizing communism or socialism if you buy from any German/Jap/Chinese company or product.

Sure they have it easy when businesses are from the burden of having to worry about those expenses. Even starting a small business much easier w/o those concerns since the govt in subsidizing. Tariffs are entire justified on this premise alone, let alone human rights concerns.

 

[RbSX]

Originally posted by: Zebo

I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.

you guys are. You justify and even take a certian amount of joy in seeing these workers displaced as "capitalism" when in fact they are competing with socialist exporters. Companies where the whole nation subsidizes thier few exporters with life time pensions and health care.

I'm from a socialist country, I never assumed to have ANY pretense to practicing this way.

The fact is your unions are making your industry more socialist than the same industry in other countries!

Your auto industry is so heavily regulated and governed by the overwhelming strength of the Union, you cannot even begin to compare it to 'communist' and 'socialist' countries, who, in comparison, cooperate very well with their unions.

You're accusing other countries of being what the Auto Industry in the United States is arguably the best at, fostering socialist values, paying workers beyond their values.

Tell me this, why are the socialist exporters paying their employees less, have worse job gaurentees, yet still having better worker production and satisfaction?

Companies where the whole nation subsidizes thier few exporters with life time pensions and health care.

This is irrelevant and moot. The Auto Manufacturers are paying pensions and health care for all of their workers and STILL pay (by statistics and amounts previously shown in this thread) 3 to 4 times more than their foreign counterparts, while enjoying similar benefits!

What a joke. How do you people expect to compete in a situation like that?

My dad employs several forklift drivers, 4 lumber companies and the yard workers are unionized, they make starting wage $14 an hour with full medical and dental.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RyanSengara

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RyanSengara

'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.'

Thats hypocrisy because because thats not how a capitalist market works!

My family owns a small business to albeit in a 'socialist' country, and we don't buy our product from exclusively Canadian producers, rather we purchase from whoever gives us the best damned deal.

Other peoples survival is their own business, I'm concerned about mind.

how is that hypocrisy, you still haven't shown how it is hypocritical at all. all you've said is, you will screw the local businesses so that you can get a better price on certain products.

but by screwing local businesses you also hurt yourself. there is such a thing as cooperative efforts.

Thats not capitalism, the thing that you Americans hold oh so high and mighty over others. Thats the hypocrisy of it.

And no we don't screw anyone, we pass the lower prices onto the consumer.

i don't hold capitalism over others. as an economist, i believe that capitalism IS the best way to distribute scarce resources. that is the answer. BUT capitalism on a global scale doesn't work. we can't continue to send all our manufacturing jobs overseas because of an ignorant belief that free market capitalism can defeat the socialism we have encountered in japan. the problem with the socialism in japan is, it's not a POLICY driven socialism such as we saw in England or Russia, it's a SOCIAL MORE driven socialism.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Platnium Gold You are a patriot sir.:thumbsup: My motto If I can buy American I will. Wife about flipped when I brought home a $2500 Wolf stove.. Oh well.

We are trading away the farm too. Only people getting rich are huge multi nationals such as ADM and Cargill pitting our farmers against third world $1 a day slave labor. I encorage all you other patriots to check out http://www.localharvest.org/ for your farmers too. You know we import food like mad from thoughout the world? Who knows what kinds of poisons was used? Congress, being bought and sold as they are, refuses orgin labels. The ecological damage they are causing? And most importantly they aint gonna buy shat from me unlike a USA farmer might. Either though nationlism, socialism, or being flat broke they won't.

i am a patriot but that's not the only reason for my beliefs or actions.

i do believe in society and what it adds to the individual. i believe that nothing i accomplished in life was entirely of my own efforts but was part of the efforts of everyone in my COMMUNITY, oh wait that's what COMMUNITY means doesn't it.

i do this NOT only because it's best for my country but also because it's BEST for me.

so i guess i'm patriotic but i'm also selfish.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: zendari
Unions need to be subject to the same antitrust laws of companies.

agreed, i have posted this exact same thing in MANY MANY union threads. the Union is a monopoly of Labor and should but subject to the same antitrust laws.

 

[Jadow]

I've got no problem with the unions for the simple fact that it takes two to tango, and any company who negotiates a union contract that lets a druggie work 3/5 days a week without any consequences deserves whatever they get.

If a company can't survive with the union contracts they negotiated, they deserve to die. There will be something else to fill the void after they are dead and buried.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: infestedgh0st

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: BD2003
Oh thats right, because youre not a real american if you dont buy american cars eh?

Exactly.
Perfect.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

And...
Everyone who owns a jap car should have it pushed into the ocean while they are in it.

you sir, is a douchebag.

and union is the reason why americans cannot compete with others.

and all you can do is name call.

the union is not the ONLY reason, yes it is one reason but not the ONLY reason americans cannot compete.

in the early to late 70's. japanese as a people REFUSED to buy US cars, not in policy as the japanese govt policy allowed for importation of foreign (US) automobiles, but because people AS A GROUP refused to buy them. they didn't need a policy there because it was part of the SOCIAL MORE.

what amazes me is how many of you are soo quick to judge american company's, executives, unions and such without having a CLUE as to what it was they faced.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Jadow
I've got no problem with the unions for the simple fact that it takes two to tango, and any company who negotiates a union contract that lets a druggie work 3/5 days a week without any consequences deserves whatever they get.

If a company can't survive with the union contracts they negotiated, they deserve to die. There will be something else to fill the void after they are dead and buried.

that's ridiculous. again, someone with NO understanding of economic realities.

what you say is true on a small scale and with smaller businesses, but auto manufacturing is NOT something that allows for easy entry into the market. do you have ANY idea what it takes to become a car manufacturer?

sheesh, that's why democracy will fail, too many ignorant people voicing ignorant opinons and voting on that ignorance.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: zendari
Unions need to be subject to the same antitrust laws of companies.

agreed, i have posted this exact same thing in MANY MANY union threads. the Union is a monopoly of Labor and should but subject to the same antitrust laws.

There even was a bill proposed in Congress banning companies from hiring replacement workers when unions strike. I don't think it passed though.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: zendari
Unions need to be subject to the same antitrust laws of companies.

agreed, i have posted this exact same thing in MANY MANY union threads. the Union is a monopoly of Labor and should but subject to the same antitrust laws.

There even was a bill proposed in Congress banning companies from hiring replacement workers when unions strike. I don't think it passed though.

yup, unions are big business. they are the suck. overall this whole adjustment period could be good for the US to an extent but if we lose manufacturing companies and facilities, the cost of reentry could be so high that they never come back. that's the problem.

it's easy to say, oh let's try trial and error but there are some things where trial and error is NOT an option. if we lose GM and Ford, it could be a blow almost impossible to recover from.

will we continue to be a consumer society, yes, for a period of time, but a purely service industry is NOT feasible. will there always be a need for manufacturing this country, YES. to just give away the manufacturing sector of our economy because we "percieve" some cars are "prettier" is just grotesque.

 

[Jadow]

what you say is true on a small scale and with smaller businesses, but auto manufacturing is NOT something that allows for easy entry into the market. do you have ANY idea what it takes to become a car manufacturer?

sheesh, that's why democracy will fail, too many ignorant people voicing ignorant opinons and voting on that ignorance

When did I ever say that there would be a new auto company to fill the void? You made an assumption based on something I didn't say. Perhaps the void will be filled by a company like Hyundai increasing domestic mfg, or the void will be filled by production of a new gizmo that hasn't even been invented yet. There's always something to fill the void, even if Detroit does not get jobs back, people will migrate away from there to where their are jobs.

And outsourcing is not a bad thing, for one thing, more countries outsource to the USA than we outsource to other countries, also lower cost of labor simply allows big companies to spend their money elsewhere, invest in new techoligies, pay a divendend to investors who then have more money to invest elsewhere, etc...

moving towards efficiency is always good.

 

[RbSX]

Originally posted by: Jadow
what you say is true on a small scale and with smaller businesses, but auto manufacturing is NOT something that allows for easy entry into the market. do you have ANY idea what it takes to become a car manufacturer?

sheesh, that's why democracy will fail, too many ignorant people voicing ignorant opinons and voting on that ignorance

When did I ever say that there would be a new auto company to fill the void? You made an assumption based on something I didn't say. Perhaps the void will be filled by a company like Hyundai increasing domestic mfg, or the void will be filled by production of a new gizmo that hasn't even been invented yet. There's always something to fill the void, even if Detroit does not get jobs back, people will migrate away from there to where their are jobs.

And outsourcing is not a bad thing, for one thing, more countries outsource to the USA than we outsource to other countries, also lower cost of labor simply allows big companies to spend their money elsewhere, invest in new techoligies, pay a divendend to investors who then have more money to invest elsewhere, etc...

moving towards efficiency is always good.

Not if it's at the expense of the american people (otherwise known as the community by Zebo and Shilala), because if it's at the expense of the American people you're unpatriotic.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Jadow
what you say is true on a small scale and with smaller businesses, but auto manufacturing is NOT something that allows for easy entry into the market. do you have ANY idea what it takes to become a car manufacturer?

sheesh, that's why democracy will fail, too many ignorant people voicing ignorant opinons and voting on that ignorance

When did I ever say that there would be a new auto company to fill the void? You made an assumption based on something I didn't say. Perhaps the void will be filled by a company like Hyundai increasing domestic mfg, or the void will be filled by production of a new gizmo that hasn't even been invented yet. There's always something to fill the void, even if Detroit does not get jobs back, people will migrate away from there to where their are jobs.

And outsourcing is not a bad thing, for one thing, more countries outsource to the USA than we outsource to other countries, also lower cost of labor simply allows big companies to spend their money elsewhere, invest in new techoligies, pay a divendend to investors who then have more money to invest elsewhere, etc...

moving towards efficiency is always good.

you are right, i did make an assumption. my assumption which differs from yours is, i know that the "global" economy will fail. there are too many barriers and inequalities for it to continue as it is right now.

given my assumptions, your ideas of outsourcing, hyundai putting up manufacturing facilities in the US etc are all bad things.

it's amazing how differently japanese and americans think about economics. for the japanese economics is about a war for scarce resources. for americans economics is about an equitable distribution of scarce resources.

there is a definite difference between those two definitions.

japanese may have lost WWII, but it looks like they could win the economic war.

 

[Jadow]

even if it at the expense of a small group of American people in the short term, in the long term moving towards efficieny will be better for the American people as a whole.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: zendari
Unions need to be subject to the same antitrust laws of companies.

agreed, i have posted this exact same thing in MANY MANY union threads. the Union is a monopoly of Labor and should but subject to the same antitrust laws.

There even was a bill proposed in Congress banning companies from hiring replacement workers when unions strike. I don't think it passed though.

Too bad they didn't pass a law that they can't hire anyone over $3 hr right?

Then you would be happy.

 

[Jadow]

japanese may have lost WWII, but it looks like they could win the economic war.

You ever watch MXC on Spike TV, how can those goofs ever beat us?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Jadow
even if it at the expense of a small group of American people in the short term, in the long term moving towards efficieny will be better for the American people as a whole.

wrong, the very opposite is true, the people temporarily benefitting are those buying foreign cars.

it's much like all this made in china cr@p that walmart and other retailers are bringing in, sure short term you get decently made goods for less, but the result will just be an economic growth in china which will lead to a higher demand for crude by china and VOILA we all suffer in the US because of the continual rise in oil prices.

if the GDP in china quadruples in the next 5 yrs, the number of autos in the china could grow from 1 million currently to about 30 million. do you honestly think that won't hurt our economy?

same situation in India right now, we have to HUGE populations that are mostly living in poverty and yet we insist on providing them with the economic means to completely ruin life as we know it.

china and india has a combined population of 2 billion +. that's 1/3 the worlds population. you grow those two economies by continuing to export jobs (manufacturing and IT) and basically you are asking for inflation. inflation like we've never seen it before. currently gas is at about $3.00 / gallon. so far we haven't seen many economic changes because of that price, but if it sticks and doesn't start to go down soon, you are going to see EVERYTHING increase in price.

 

[vi edit]

given my assumptions, your ideas of outsourcing, hyundai putting up manufacturing facilities in the US etc are all bad things.

Why is this a bad thing? It provides thousands of US citizens with jobs and provides them with an income that largely is spent in the US.

All of these factory workers have to buy or rent homes. They have to buy groceries. They go out to eat at local restaurants. They buy clothes at local retailers. They buy gas from local gas stations. Ect.

I'm still missing the logical hurdle on WHY Honda, Toyota, Nissan, ect building factories in the US are bad things. The way I see it, doing this puts more money into the hands of middle class people than GM or Ford does when they move factories to Canada or Mexico.

I understand the concept of money "Staying in the US" if the profits of the car go back to a company that resides in the US. But really, the only people really profiting there are execs and maybe shareholders. You aren't doing anything to help the average middle class worker or the local economies that these people dump their money into.

When Nissan comes in and builds a plant in Mississippi, you just provided fairly decent paying jobs to several thousand people. These people then turn around and spend that moeny in their local economies.

Isn't that the lesser of two evils? Isn't that worth the price having a couple hunded or at most a couple thousand bucks float back to Nissan HQ in Japan? Plus you still have to pay a US citizen to drive a truck to deliver it to dealerships. And then there are the dealerships and the US salespeople that money. And there's the service departments that are making money.

I just fail to see how this is such a devistating problem?

But then Economics was never one of my strong points.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Jadow
japanese may have lost WWII, but it looks like they could win the economic war.

You ever watch MXC on Spike TV, how can those goofs ever beat us?

because they are kicking our asses and they are letting us help them do it.

in the late 50's RCA decided they wanted to sell TV's in japan. the japanese govt and the japanese companies said, NO, you can't sell TV's in japan.

however, we will sell them for you if you sell us ALL patents to tv's. then we will build them and sell them here.

wow, that was a BRILLIANT move on the part of RCA right. RIGHT, how many tv manufacturing facilities/companies do we have in the US??

oh ya, ZERO.

those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

given my assumptions, your ideas of outsourcing, hyundai putting up manufacturing facilities in the US etc are all bad things.

Why is this a bad thing? It provides thousands of US citizens with jobs and provides them with an income that largely is spent in the US.

All of these factory workers have to buy or rent homes. They have to buy groceries. They go out to eat at local restaurants. They buy clothes at local retailers. They buy gas from local gas stations. Ect.

I'm still missing the logical hurdle on WHY Honda, Toyota, Nissan, ect building factories in the US are bad things. The way I see it, doing this puts more money into the hands of middle class people than GM or Ford does when they move factories to Canada or Mexico.

I understand the concept of money "Staying in the US" if the profits of the car go back to a company that resides in the US. But really, the only people really profiting there are execs and maybe shareholders. You aren't doing anything to help the average middle class worker or the local economies that these people dump their money into.

When Nissan comes in and builds a plant in Mississippi, you just provided fairly decent paying jobs to several thousand people. These people then turn around and spend that moeny in their local economies.

Isn't that the lesser of two evils? Isn't that worth the price having a couple hunded or at most a couple thousand bucks float back to Nissan HQ in Japan? Plus you still have to pay a US citizen to drive a truck to deliver it to dealerships. And then there are the dealerships and the US salespeople that money. And there's the service departments that are making money.

I just fail to see how this is such a devistating problem?

But then Economics was never one of my strong points.

most of the manufacturing facilities japanese put up are only ASSEMBLY plants, the big money hasn't ever been in the assembly part, it's in the PARTS. guess where the parts are manufactured. most of them are still manufactured in japan because they make enough money on the parts to justify japanese labor costs.

delphi going out of business is HUGE because it was one of GM's most profitable units. problem is, delphi can't really compete with toyota's counterpart for parts (don't know the name of that company) because who wants to buy a gm manufactured part for a toyota? or conversely, delco had the advantage selling gm parts because people usually prefer original manufacturer made parts over 3rd party made parts).

as to ford and gm sending assembly to other countries of course i'm against that.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold


most of the manufacturing facilities japanese put up are only ASSEMBLY plants, the big money hasn't ever been in the assembly part, it's in the PARTS. guess where the parts are manufactured. most of them are still manufactured in japan because they make enough money on the parts to justify japanese labor costs.

Really? I guess my company and thousands of others supplying over 90% of the parts for those cars built in the US and Canada don't exist, do they? Most of the Camry parts fo the Toyota plant in Georgetown, KY come from the surrounding area. Every new manufacturer that has sprung up in the US might have begun by importing parts, but they quickly move to domestic parts to build those vehicles (Hyundai in Alabama prime example: Already switching the plant from imported parts to domestically made parts. We are opening a new plant in the US (suprise) to supply that plant in Alabama).

Of course, many of the domestic parts suppliers (sources of parts for all manufacturers in the US) have begun shipping some of that work to Mexico (my company as a good example).

P.S. My company, like thousands of others, supplies Hyundai, Honda, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes as well as a host of supplies that supply those same companies in the US (acting as a tier 2 supplier such as TRW, etc).



Oh, and on the subject of unions (I prefer onions because they typically stink). It's not about the working man any more, it's more like a political power and those at the top only worry about theirselves and how many "votes" they get for themselves (typical of a politician). Many others companies that are non-union are paying decent wages and expect good work from their workers, but don't offer the "free ride" and "lifetime full support" that these unions have forced over the years. They "help" the employees save for their own retirment, but aren't the sole source. The unions have shot themselves and the respective companies (with the company's help of course) in the foot and if they don't stop the bleeding with something other than a simple bandaid, they will die. Sometimes, it better to cut off your foot and live than keep it and die.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dartworth

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML

Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.

And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.

Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.

Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.

Sure dave.

Manufacturing jobs in the US

Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?

yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.

fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.

sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.

do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.

You do realize that if we still dedicated 70% of the work force to feeding out population we would be a much poorer, with much less technology. This conversation we are having now would not be possible if we were all still farmers.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Arnt you the 30 year old still living with your parents on social security dole?

I am the 34 year-old who became disabled at 31 after paying taxes since the age of 15, and now lives with his parents, paying them $500 per month rent from my Social Security Disability checks...yes.

How dare you judge what people are worth? And comparing them to talibhan You're a POS what have you ever acomplished in your life? Ever worked an honest day?

I think being a tax-payer for 16 years, and being a former member of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees union, qualifies me just fine.

Not only have I worked nothing but honest days, I did so for years while suffering severe impairment before being diagnosed or even seeking medical advice, because I refused to accept that disability was an option. I guarantee the personal cost to me from my intransigent work ethic, which I endured for years without complaint, was more than you could bear on your best day.

You can't really compare Japan to the US. In addition to a totally different pattern of industrialization from the west they had the opportunity to start over fresh after WWII with lots of assistence and support from the US. Japanese Industrialization and Economic Growth

Plus, Japanese unions are gung-ho about competitiveness, productivity, and the quality of their product. They aren't obstructionist ideologues who view hostility between the union and company as a benefit.

They don't ask 'what's in it for me' whenever the company wants to improve productivity or trim costs. They ask 'what can I do for my company', to play on the words of a former U.S. President. And yes, US unions ridicule and disparage the Japanese for it.

I wonder why> could it be Jap upper management actually respects for the workers, not hopping company to company cash out tens of millions all while claiming workers need to sacrifice for hundreths the salareis of execs? Japs won't export thier factories for the slightest margins while Americans will? I mean what kind of slap in the face is awarding double salary to execs going into bankruptcy at the same time telling workers take 63% less? Pay for the big cheese at a Japanese firm ranges from $300,000 to $500,000.. While American Execs make from 5M -100M.. Nah that won't creat resentment at all.

Respect-duty-honor works both ways pal something cut-throat American culture refuses to understand. It's everyman for himself and short term profits, yes on both sides.

 

[Kaieye]

My turn - As a Asian American who was born in California, I see a different and possibly disturbing view in the near future. We will owe Japan, China and Korea
much $$ Who do you think is buying all the treasury bonds here in America? In 10-25 years, there will be a good chance your Doctor or boss is going to be Asian. You will be OWNED! The Yellow Peril will soon arrive.

By the way, I've been driving almost 35 years and the only American truck I bought was a Ford Courier built by Mazda. And I would never buy a American car because
of the shoddy way they are built with lousy engineering/design.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: sonoma1993
so if the delphi want there employees to take a 68% pay-cut, is the company executives going to take a 68% pay-cut as well?

Bingo! My guess is that the company executives haven't taken a pay cut or renegotiated their contracts.