GM workers strike, first time since 2007

[K1052]

He'll do a far less articulate version of this:

"I know many of you are great workers, I've met you at my rallies over the past few years. And you people are saying that you want to work, you want fair wages, you don't want to lose your jobs to manufacturing in China. But the union bosses just don't get it. You see, they're all Democrats, and they're in cahoots with Democrats, and they'd rather see Americans suffer through a strike than cut dues and risk their own pay. They don't know how to bring American manufacturing back. They've forgotten how to win. If my people were running the unions, you'd all see your pay go up 50-100%!! We know how to win! Get rid of your bosses and get conservatives and Republicans in charge, and we'll save the unions!!"

Sad thing is, it might just work.

There is nothing that can reach the "true believers". Not even destitution.

That's not everybody though.

 

[Ajay]

As for the stock buybacks I agree they were probably ill-advised but their size (around $15b or so IIRC) is peanuts compared to the debt load the company has taken on. That's the far bigger concern. The company can always do a follow-up stock offering if they feel they bought too much back, but even at low interest rates that debt service is going to be a drag. I'm unsure if they strategically got much out of the debt either considering it's not like they used it to launch a brand new all-electric car division or something.

$93B US in debt!! Well, that a WTF moment. No wonder they are doing buybacks to keep the stock price up (aside from the idiotic executive compensations clusterf*ck). With low debt costs, too many companies are heavitly leveraging debt. I haven't kept up with this issue, but I suspect that that is were the buyback money is coming from. Freaking circle jerk, IMHO.

 

[glenn1]

$93B US in debt!! Well, that a WTF moment. No wonder they are doing buybacks to keep the stock price up (aside from the idiotic executive compensations clusterf*ck). With low debt costs, too many companies are heavitly leveraging debt. I haven't kept up with this issue, but I suspect that that is were the buyback money is coming from. Freaking circle jerk, IMHO.

Too lazy to pull up the financial statements to confirm but the .5 second google search says GM had about $4-5B income from operations last year or so.

 

[thilanliyan]

We should have a German-type system where labor is represented on boards of directors.

Europe is full of evil soshulist commie libs, etc etc.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tens-thousands-general-motors-auto-workers-go-strike-n1054701

The automakers seem in increasingly tight spots with production overcapacity, regulatory uncertainty, a trade war, and growing labor unrest. I presume Trump, as a staunch populist, will eventually blame the union.

The union is simply dumb as a fucking doornail and after 20 years of constant outsourcing they still for whatever reason can't see the writing on the wall.

Your labor skills are shit. We have high regulatory costs of labor here in the US. Mexico will do it for pennies on the dollar.

Last I recall most auto manufacturers already make most of the standard sedans in Mexico - so the only thing really remaining here in the US was stuff like Pick-up trucks.


Go ahead union workers. Shoot yourself in the foot and speed up the implementation of your replacements. Smart idea detective dipshits.

Outsourcing and automation is just going to become more and more of a fact. If you're an auto worker with poor skills in basic manufacturing processes - guess what? You're next. You can stomp your feet and drag your feet (like the union is doing here) or you can fight forward and educate yourself and acquire new skills to combat it. Regardless, it's going to happen.

 

[Ajay]

^ yes, that’s the spirit America, just give up.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

^ yes, that’s the spirit America, just give up.

What part of " You can stomp your feet and drag your feet (like the union is doing here) or you can fight forward and educate yourself and acquire new skills to combat it. " made you equate that to "just give up"?

Oh yeah, your low IQ.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The UAW has been engaged in questionable practices for many years yet the workers still trust them. How many scandals does it take before the workers look elsewhere for representation?

It's just like anything revolving a "higher power" that tells you that they are there to "protect you".

Hence, you have an army of liberals that think the US Government knows best for laws, regulations, "benefits", etc... Hence, democrats hinge on hooking the morons into their sea of idiocy by getting them to give in to government benefits and entitlements. They couldn't at all have alternative motives or possibly have corruptions.

 

[dainthomas]

What part of " You can stomp your feet and drag your feet (like the union is doing here) or you can fight forward and educate yourself and acquire new skills to combat it. " made you equate that to "just give up"?

Oh yeah, your low IQ.

Management knows they could still make money manufacturing in the US, but they want to bump up their stock options and already obscene bonuses by throwing people (and potential customers) out of work when they scoot off to the developing country du jour.

Sad that you still buy into their tired schtick of it's all gubmint/labor's fault.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

What part of " You can stomp your feet and drag your feet (like the union is doing here) or you can fight forward and educate yourself and acquire new skills to combat it. " made you equate that to "just give up"?

Oh yeah, your low IQ.

I know a guy who used to say similar things, especially regarding union work or manufacturing. He is a network engineer guy, manages big computer networks for colleges and such.
When I briefly worked at a tech sales company I said “hey where are you regarding a virtualized network”
He went nuts about how that will make it possible to off shore jobs like his. He won’t support or buy any of it. This was a long time ago but it’s funny how opinions change when you are on the short end.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I know a guy who used to say similar things, especially regarding union work or manufacturing. He is a network engineer guy, manages big computer networks for colleges and such.
When I briefly worked at a tech sales company I said “hey where are you regarding a virtualized network”
He went nuts about how that will make it possible to off shore jobs like his. He won’t support or buy any of it. This was a long time ago but it’s funny how opinions change when you are on the short end.

You're insinuating that I feel I am in a field that is above outsourcing / automation. I don't believe that for a second.

My very first job out of college was credit and collections for a mega global corporate IT company. I was laid off and the job was outsourced to Guadalajara a little over 2 years into it and they expected me to train my replacement.

After that I advanced, learned skills in taxation - worked for major accounting firms, and now I work with a software vendor. I hope to keep myself out of the automation sphere, but believe me when I say - I don't for a single minute think I'm above it. If it catches up to me again I'm prepared to move on to another new place and acquire different skills.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You're insinuating that I feel I am in a field that is above outsourcing / automation. I don't believe that for a second.

My very first job out of college was credit and collections for a mega global corporate IT company. I was laid off and the job was outsourced to Guadalajara and they expected me to train my replacement.

After that I advanced, learned skills in taxation - worked for major accounting firms, and now I work with a software vendor. I hope to keep myself out of the automation sphere, but believe me when I say, I don't for a single minute think I'm above it. If it catches up to me again I'm prepared to move on to another new place and acquire different skills.

Good answer and thank you for clarifying

 

[boomerang]

Hmm, striking while UAW leaders are being investigated, indicted and jailed. Doesn't seem like the wisest course of action.

UAW leader charged with embezzling union funds amid contract talks with Detroit automakers

The charges come as the union negotiates new contracts with the Detroit automakers and two weeks after federal officials raided the leader's home and office in Missouri.

www.cnbc.com

Former UAW VP Norwood Jewell pleads guilty, faces up to 5 years in prison

Sixty-one-year-old Norwood Jewell pleaded guilty to conspiring with other United Auto Workers Union officials and officials from Fiat Chrysler to make illegal payments.

www.wxyz.com

Scandal-rocked UAW extends Ford, FCA contracts, prepares to strike GM - Autoblog

The United Auto Workers union agreed to temporary contract extensions with Ford Motor Co and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV on Friday as it grappled with a federal corruption probe that has implicated its president.

www.autoblog.com

FBI raids two UAW presidents' homes as part of nationwide sweep in corruption probe

Agents investigating corruption involving the autoworkers union conducted raids as contract

www.freep.com

UAW leaders implicated in probe

DETROIT/WASHINGTON -- UAW President Gary Jones and his predecessor are unnamed officials listed in a federal criminal complaint detailing alleged corruption and embezzlement by union leaders, a source familiar with the matter said on Friday. The complaint was released on Thursday, just two days…

www.autonews.com

The feds had control over the Teamsters for decades and it looks like the UAW is going to be next.

Raids raise possibility of federal racketeering case against UAW

Experts said Wednesday's raids of the homes top UAW officials amplify the possibility of federal government oversight

www.detroitnews.com

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Hmm, striking while UAW leaders are being investigated, indicted and jailed. Doesn't seem like the wisest course of action.

UAW leader charged with embezzling union funds amid contract talks with Detroit automakers

The charges come as the union negotiates new contracts with the Detroit automakers and two weeks after federal officials raided the leader's home and office in Missouri.

www.cnbc.com

Former UAW VP Norwood Jewell pleads guilty, faces up to 5 years in prison

Sixty-one-year-old Norwood Jewell pleaded guilty to conspiring with other United Auto Workers Union officials and officials from Fiat Chrysler to make illegal payments.

www.wxyz.com

Scandal-rocked UAW extends Ford, FCA contracts, prepares to strike GM - Autoblog

The United Auto Workers union agreed to temporary contract extensions with Ford Motor Co and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV on Friday as it grappled with a federal corruption probe that has implicated its president.

www.autoblog.com

FBI raids two UAW presidents' homes as part of nationwide sweep in corruption probe

Agents investigating corruption involving the autoworkers union conducted raids as contract

www.freep.com

UAW leaders implicated in probe

DETROIT/WASHINGTON -- UAW President Gary Jones and his predecessor are unnamed officials listed in a federal criminal complaint detailing alleged corruption and embezzlement by union leaders, a source familiar with the matter said on Friday. The complaint was released on Thursday, just two days…

www.autonews.com

The feds had control over the Teamsters for decades and it looks like the UAW is going to be next.

Raids raise possibility of federal racketeering case against UAW

Experts said Wednesday's raids of the homes top UAW officials amplify the possibility of federal government oversight

www.detroitnews.com

Seems incredibly wise if you're one of the corrupted leaders and are looking to wash out the bad news and act as if you're "the good guys".

 

[Exterous]

So following this logic is a time for raises when the business is profitable or when it is unprofitable? Or neither? This line of reasoning certainly appeals to management but seems an problematic place to negotiate a labor contract from.

Personally I think the auto industry is looking at a downturn in the near future if one hasn't already arrived in some respects. That said many obligations were shed in the bankruptcy so the situation isn't exactly the same as a decade ago.

I think there is a larger issue of timing. GM has scaled back a lot of car manufacturing and design work. There is a lot of pressure to find work for workers from scaled back or eliminated lines but there aren't the US jobs to take them all. GM has also become much more vulnerable to a recession that it was in the past (IMO) due to the focus on large expensive gas intensive vehicles.

I'm more pessimistic about the economic future so this seems like a bad time to lock in mandatory higher wages or other concessions like job expansion

Management knows they could still make money manufacturing in the US, but they want to bump up their stock options and already obscene bonuses by throwing people (and potential customers) out of work when they scoot off to the developing country du jour.

Sad that you still buy into their tired schtick of it's all gubmint/labor's fault.

No they'd rather use non-union labor because it doesn't cause them nearly as many issues. I'm friends with quite a few GM workers on both sides of this. Fights, drug use, and sexual assault by a union worker will just get you moved to another line or shift. Not to mention a fairly robust network of people willing to roll back miles on a GM lease. And the stories I hear about quality...

Unions have their place and my wife is a union member. But the UAW is not a union that should be backed

 

[Jhhnn]

Seems incredibly wise if you're one of the corrupted leaders and are looking to wash out the bad news and act as if you're "the good guys".

That's ridiculous. UAW members voted overwhelmingly to strike if necessary-

Auto union workers overwhelmingly vote to authorize strikes at GM, Ford, Fiat Chrysler

The United Auto Workers said about 96% of members at each of the automakers supported the action. That's slightly down from negotiations four years ago, when workers at GM and Fiat Chrysler supported a strike by 97% and Ford at 98%.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Paladin3]

Management knows they could still make money manufacturing in the US, but they want to bump up their stock options and already obscene bonuses by throwing people (and potential customers) out of work when they scoot off to the developing country du jour.

Sad that you still buy into their tired schtick of it's all gubmint/labor's fault.

I'm asking in all seriousness...isn't that what Trump's tariffs, or, tariffs in general are supposed to be preventing? Protecting US jobs rather than seeing them head to wherever labor is cheap and exploitative?

 

[K1052]

I think there is a larger issue of timing. GM has scaled back a lot of car manufacturing and design work. There is a lot of pressure to find work for workers from scaled back or eliminated lines but there aren't the US jobs to take them all. GM has also become much more vulnerable to a recession that it was in the past (IMO) due to the focus on large expensive gas intensive vehicles.

I'm more pessimistic about the economic future so this seems like a bad time to lock in mandatory higher wages or other concessions like job expansion

Those product lines still exist somewhat they've just been moved out of the country as US desire for sedans has dropped and the domestic automakers don't have competitive products compared to asian and German manufactures, many of which are made in the US. Instead of competing they've retreated into CUV/SUV/Truck lines which indeed makes them more vulnerable to a downturn. Now it doesn't appear they have any actual plan to address this aside from sticking a hand out to the feds should the worst happen so I'm less sympathetic to complaints that their labor is treating them unfairly. Meanwhile they have at least some profitability and are paying dividends/buying back stock which benefits management and shareholders.

 

[Exterous]

Now it doesn't appear they have any actual plan to address this aside from sticking a hand out to the feds should the worst happen so I'm less sympathetic to complaints that their labor is treating them unfairly. Meanwhile they have at least some profitability and are paying dividends/buying back stock which benefits management and shareholders.

GM offered work for 2 of the 4 closed plants despite the overcapacity they already have. The union wants all 4 plants to continue to operate at previous levels, turning down retooling offers for cars, batteries and trucks. While leadership is not blameless in questionable decisions, the union is helping dig the hole.

GM has also paid out the most in profit sharing to workers of any auto company in the US - some $2.3Bn dollars in the last 4 years or around an extra $45,500 per union worker. GM was offering an extra $8,000 bonus per employee along with guaranteed wage increases over the length of the contract regardless of economic conditions. GM has the most generous wage+benefits package of any auto company making cars in the US (~$62/hour including benefits compared to $50/hour for foreign car companies - although there is some disagreement over these numbers). GM workers have seen a lot of benefits alongside management and shareholders

 

[Jhhnn]

GM offered work for 2 of the 4 closed plants despite the overcapacity they already have. The union wants all 4 plants to continue to operate at previous levels, turning down retooling offers for cars, batteries and trucks. While leadership is not blameless in questionable decisions, the union is helping dig the hole.

GM has also paid out the most in profit sharing to workers of any auto company in the US - some $2.3Bn dollars in the last 4 years or around an extra $45,500 per union worker. GM was offering an extra $8,000 bonus per employee along with guaranteed wage increases over the length of the contract regardless of economic conditions. GM has the most generous wage+benefits package of any auto company making cars in the US (~$62/hour including benefits compared to $50/hour for foreign car companies - although there is some disagreement over these numbers). GM workers have seen a lot of benefits alongside management and shareholders

Links would be good.

 

[Ajay]

What part of " You can stomp your feet and drag your feet (like the union is doing here) or you can fight forward and educate yourself and acquire new skills to combat it. " made you equate that to "just give up"?

Oh yeah, your low IQ.

Your such a sweetheart - hugs and kisses Obviously, I was referring to the first part of your statement.

 

[K1052]

GM offered work for 2 of the 4 closed plants despite the overcapacity they already have. The union wants all 4 plants to continue to operate at previous levels, turning down retooling offers for cars, batteries and trucks. While leadership is not blameless in questionable decisions, the union is helping dig the hole.

Without more info about what kind of retooling GM offered at what production level this is sort of difficult to analyze the quality of such an offer.

GM has also paid out the most in profit sharing to workers of any auto company in the US - some $2.3Bn dollars in the last 4 years or around an extra $45,500 per union worker. GM was offering an extra $8,000 bonus per employee along with guaranteed wage increases over the length of the contract regardless of economic conditions. GM has the most generous wage+benefits package of any auto company making cars in the US (~$62/hour including benefits compared to $50/hour for foreign car companies - although there is some disagreement over these numbers). GM workers have seen a lot of benefits alongside management and shareholders

AFAIK company performance based compensation was basically the core of the last couple agreements going back to the crisis when they couldn't pay much even if they wanted to. The union accepted this at the time instead of guaranteed comp which was not an insignificant concession for management to have secured. Both the company and union are surely looking at the future but I am skeptical that GM actually knows what the future is going to look like besides riskier with a shrinking domestic product portfolio.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I think there is a larger issue of timing. GM has scaled back a lot of car manufacturing and design work. There is a lot of pressure to find work for workers from scaled back or eliminated lines but there aren't the US jobs to take them all. GM has also become much more vulnerable to a recession that it was in the past (IMO) due to the focus on large expensive gas intensive vehicles.

I'm more pessimistic about the economic future so this seems like a bad time to lock in mandatory higher wages or other concessions like job expansion




No they'd rather use non-union labor because it doesn't cause them nearly as many issues. I'm friends with quite a few GM workers on both sides of this. Fights, drug use, and sexual assault by a union worker will just get you moved to another line or shift. Not to mention a fairly robust network of people willing to roll back miles on a GM lease. And the stories I hear about quality...

Unions have their place and my wife is a union member. But the UAW is not a union that should be backed

Most of that stuff has nothing to do with the workers and some of it makes no sense as an argument against the union. They're not making less vehicles, they've just transitioned more to crossovers and SUVs, so saying they're making less cars doesn't mean anything. Although it is true part of the issue is they want to close factories that were making cars as they have others ones already producing those other vehicles, and so workers in say Michigan aren't happy as they'd have to move elsewhere. You're also ignoring that they overproduced because they had been fucking the workers over after their past fuckup gave them the justification to do so. They got to reap higher margins during that time (as a means to prop up their stock price and make it seem like they were doing better than they really were it should be noted). Just because they gave them compensation during supposedly good times (which isn't quite the case, as much of that comes from tax cuts that will end up being taken out of their butts later), doesn't mean it equals the compensation they should have gotten.

Lastly. You expect someone to take that seriously? Your wife's a teacher. You should hear some of the shit I've heard about their unions, so fuck your anecdotes (oh yes, its only the UAW that has covered up sexual assault! yep it was the UAW responsible for GM's ignition switch fuckup I bet! I've never heard of unscrupulouse people that weren't part of the UAW doing that!). But then its like you turned Republican all of a sudden and have zero self awareness. "Guys, unions are ok when I benefit from them, but when I don't, they're bad!"

That's not to say the union is absolutely right, or GM is absolutely wrong. Its a negotiation and effectively there isn't absolute right and wrong. I bet if you heard the shit GM corporate has done you could say how they shouldn't be allowed to exist. I'm sure we'll hear plenty of both as they fight for public sentiment to bolster their bargaining position.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Hire a bunch of scabs for $14.99 an hour.

 

[Exterous]

Links would be good.

Without more info about what kind of retooling GM offered at what production level this is sort of difficult to analyze the quality of such an offer.

Record UAW profit-sharing payouts confront a post-peak market

The most lucrative four-year stretch of bonuses for the UAW rank and file could portend contentious talks when the Detroit 3 begin to negotiate a new contract this summer.

www.autonews.com

46,000 UAW workers strike at GM plants nationwide

As contract negotiations between the UAW and General Motors falter, workers head to the picket lines

www.detroitnews.com

I don't mean to say that GM's decisions on non-union worker pay, stock buy backs etc is sound policy but if the company is not on a good path the solution isn't to advocate to hit the brick wall faster. It's well within the union's ability to bargain for better long term decisions instead of more trucks and more workers.

Most of that stuff has nothing to do with the workers and some of it makes no sense as an argument against the union. They're not making less vehicles, they've just transitioned more to crossovers and SUVs, so saying they're making less cars doesn't mean anything.

It does mean something because one of the biggest issues for the Big 3 (least so for Ford) was that they relied too much on Truck and SUV sales which cratered during the recession. Now they have even fewer sedans and fewer affordable cars so if the same crunch were to happen again they would be in even worse shape.

Although it is true part of the issue is they want to close factories that were making cars as they have others ones already producing those other vehicles, and so workers in say Michigan aren't happy as they'd have to move elsewhere.

Michigan workers aren't all that affected compared to Ohio and Maryland workers

You're also ignoring that they overproduced because they had been fucking the workers over after their past fuckup gave them the justification to do so. They got to reap higher margins during that time (as a means to prop up their stock price and make it seem like they were doing better than they really were it should be noted). Just because they gave them compensation during supposedly good times (which isn't quite the case, as much of that comes from tax cuts that will end up being taken out of their butts later), doesn't mean it equals the compensation they should have gotten.

Their industry leading pay and benefits are (obviously) well above industry-average for what is frequently sub-par craftsmanship and includes guaranteed raises. Sounds like we disagree on how poorly the workers have been treated.

Lastly. You expect someone to take that seriously? Your wife's a teacher. You should hear some of the shit I've heard about their unions, so fuck your anecdotes (oh yes, its only the UAW that has covered up sexual assault! yep it was the UAW responsible for GM's ignition switch fuckup I bet! I've never heard of unscrupulouse people that weren't part of the UAW doing that!). But then its like you turned Republican all of a sudden and have zero self awareness. "Guys, unions are ok when I benefit from them, but when I don't, they're bad!"

Yeah so you don't even know my position on my wife's union. (For example: I think her union is irresponsible for advocating for an unsustainable pension system.) I'd also point out her union hasn't had any of the following issues:

UAW Corruption Scandal Widens With Raids On Homes And Latest Arrest

The FBI searched the homes of the current and former union presidents, and a region director has been charged with embezzlement. What role will this play on upcoming contentious contract talks?

www.npr.org

Source: More indictments coming in FCA-UAW bribery scandal

Source says six more high level officials are expected to be charged in the UAW, FCA scandal

www.freep.com

Former FCA exec, wife of former UAW VP indicted

The charges outline a scheme to pay off UAW officials with items like designer clothing, jewelry and a mortgage

www.detroitnews.com

(^You might notice a yearly trend of UAW corruption issues)

GM responds to backlash after racism allegations: 'This is not who we are'

General Motors is responding to consumers who are angry at its brand after a story on CNN about alleged widespread racism in its Toledo, Ohio, plant.

www.cnn.com

Sexism alive and well in auto industry

Is sexism dead in the car business? Nope, not even close. We conducted a survey called Project XX, and nearly 900 women took it. And they had a lot to say. Check out an overview of the results here, and explore this page to see more on issues with role models, dealerships, racism, how human...

www.autonews.com