• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

GM vs Toyota: the numbers game

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
The retirees part is why Toyota has a huge advantage. They're too new to have a legacy.


North American Workforce

Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005
GM:

White collar: 36,000 Production: 106,000. Retirees: 460,000
Toyota:

White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600


yea... thats a BIT of a difference.
 
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
The retirees part is why Toyota has a huge advantage. They're too new to have a legacy.

They really won't, either. Toyota does not offer the pension that GM offered in the past.

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Profitability per Vehicle:

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Now, I'm no economist, but that strikes me as bad business.

Just under $2,000 per car comes from pension costs, not including healthcare at all.
 
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Profitability per Vehicle:

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Now, I'm no economist, but that strikes me as bad business.

n/m read it wrong
 
toyota has way too many white collar workers for the amount of production workers. unless they have automated their production process so much more compared to GM.
 
Yep, GM's pension plans were put in place at a time when they absolutely dominated the market and profits where record breaking. They had been on top for so long, they couldn't imagine in their wildest dreams a schenario where they didn't dominate🙁 and these more than generous pension plans whould become a huge albatross around their neck.

It is the ultimate example of how extreme success can breed arrogance and complacency, and reminds me of the old addage "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"
 
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.
 
If you really think about it, GM's legacy costs are going through a cyclical format.

Their overall emplyoment over the past 100 years PROBABLY follows a bell curve - I'm not positive on that, but based on the concept that every year they reduce their workforce and keep complaining about legacy costs, I think it's logical to pattern it as such.

GM is facing legacy costs because of the large amount of benefits and retired workforce. Lets say your average retiree is 58 years old. By the national life expectancy and the fact that most of them are chain smoking alcoholics who are on their third myocardial infarction - GM should see a huge reduction in legacy costs in the next 10-20 years cause they'll simply die off.

As to whether or not they'll be in business 20 years from now is the big questsion. Chapter 11 has been a topic discussed for the past 10 years regarding losses in marketshare and profitability. They still have assets that put the cash value of the company at $25/share.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!
 
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Profitability per Vehicle:

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Now, I'm no economist, but that strikes me as bad business.

Sooo...why don't they stop giving back 10,000 on each freaking car in rebates?
 
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
The retirees part is why Toyota has a huge advantage. They're too new to have a legacy.

To be fair, GM management never should have agreed to the unions demands for that kind of package in the first place. They got rid of a short term problem in exchange for a much worse long term one. But that seems to be how most large businesses do things these days so they're in good company.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Do you think our country should have nationalized healthcare? Yes or No?

Also, who is paying the taxes in Japan?
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.


I agree

And as much as I hate government bailouts (ala Chrysler), I think its probably time for the government to step in on GM's hehalf to level the playing field
 
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!

Agreed. That sounds like a steaming load of horse sh!t.
 
Originally posted by: PingSpike


Do you think our country should have nationalized healthcare? Yes or No?

GM wishes for it. What I think is irrelevant.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/business/12971104.htm

And many econmists make powerful agumements that it would been a boom to US business who are at an inherrent disadvantage to thier socialist counterparts.
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2005/11/paul_krugman_ba.html

Also, who is paying the taxes in Japan?

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/yokoyama-a/taxationinjapan.htm
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!

Agreed. That sounds like a steaming load of horse sh!t.

It's true, but indirectly so. In the US, companies pay for employee healthcare. In a country where healthcare is nationalized, companies don't have to pick up healthcare for its' employees.
 
"But last month Toyota decided to put the new plant, which will produce RAV4 mini-S.U.V.'s, in Ontario. Explaining why it passed up financial incentives to choose a U.S. location, the company cited the quality of Ontario's work force.

What made Toyota so sensitive to labor quality issues? Maybe we should discount remarks from the president of the Toronto-based Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, who claimed that the educational level in the Southern United States was so low that trainers for Japanese plants in Alabama had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech equipment.

But there are other reports, some coming from state officials, that confirm his basic point: Japanese auto companies opening plants in the Southern U.S. have been unfavorably surprised by the work force's poor level of training.

There's some bitter irony here for Alabama's governor. Just two years ago voters overwhelmingly rejected his plea for an increase in the state's rock-bottom taxes on the affluent, so that he could afford to improve the state's low-quality education system. Opponents of the tax hike convinced voters that it would cost the state jobs.

But education is only one reason Toyota chose Ontario. Canada's other big selling point is its national health insurance system, which saves auto manufacturers large sums in benefit payments compared with their costs in the United States.

You might be tempted to say that Canadian taxpayers are, in effect, subsidizing Toyota's move by paying for health coverage. But that's not right, even aside from the fact that Canada's health care system has far lower costs per person than the American system, with its huge administrative expenses. In fact, U.S. taxpayers, not Canadians, will be hurt by the northward movement of auto jobs.

To see why, bear in mind that in the long run decisions like Toyota's probably won't affect the overall number of jobs in either the United States or Canada. But the result of international competition will be to give Canada more jobs in industries like autos, which pay health benefits to their U.S. workers, and fewer jobs in industries that don't provide those benefits. In the U.S. the effect will be just the reverse: fewer jobs with benefits, more jobs without.

So what's the impact on taxpayers? In Canada, there's no impact at all: since all Canadians get government-provided health insurance in any case, the additional auto jobs won't increase government spending.

But U.S. taxpayers will suffer, because the general public ends up picking up much of the cost of health care for workers who don't get insurance through their jobs. Some uninsured workers and their families end up on Medicaid. Others end up depending on emergency rooms, which are heavily subsidized by taxpayers.

Funny, isn't it? Pundits tell us that the welfare state is doomed by globalization, that programs like national health insurance have become unsustainable. But Canada's universal health insurance system is handling international competition just fine. It's our own system, which penalizes companies that treat their workers well, that's in trouble."

Nuff said

 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!

Agreed. That sounds like a steaming load of horse sh!t.

I provided links for you morons ...Just because you're about as cultured as a bottle cap don't lash out and prove your ignorance to the world.
 
Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!

Agreed. That sounds like a steaming load of horse sh!t.

It's true, but indirectly so. In the US, companies pay for employee healthcare. In a country where healthcare is nationalized, companies don't have to pick up healthcare for its' employees.

And then the employees pay for their own healthcare through a tax. Its not as if money were just printed to cover the costs or something...it came from somewhere.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: Zebo
Toyota is heavily subsidized by Japanese tax payers. They have no HC or retirement costs because domestic and foreign producing taxpayers alike foot the bill. It's really unfair for GM to compete with socialist state economies since GM must provide all thier employees benefits which are signifigant. Thats also why GM "lose" money here and make profits in Europe and Asia.

Bollocks. Link or SHENS!

Agreed. That sounds like a steaming load of horse sh!t.

I provided links for you morons ...Just because you're about as cultured as a bottle cap don't lash out and prove your ignorance to the world.


Your links are crap. They prove nothing more than the fact that Japanese people are taxed.

HORSE PUCKY, I TELL THEE.
 
Back
Top