GM stock to go to zero!

[ponyo]

Originally posted by: Old Hippie
I find this incredibly scary. :shocked:

Maybe it's because I'm 56 and have grown up when the auto US industry was thriving.

Maybe it's because I remember reading about and seeing the first generation imports from Saab, Toyota, Honda and others. Believe me, those cars were not a pretty sight and servicing was a nightmare.

Maybe it's because I remember the saying "As GM goes, so goes the country".

Maybe it's because I know many more will be affected other than the first tier workers.

Maybe it's because I realize bad decisions were made by Managment and Union officials that are going to drastically effect the health and welfare of the guy that just wants to work his 8 hours and go home to his kids.

I have never been one to kick a guy when he's down and I'm not going to start now.

I can only but hope that people more intelligent than I will work-out some kind of solution.

But for the time being, I'm sitting here with a lump in my throat and a pit in my stomach just thinking about current and past employees on both sides of the fence.

It's not just GM. I never thought I would see icons like Bear Sterns, Lehman, AIG, Merrill Lynch go away in my lifetime. Who would've thought Goldman, Morgan Stanley, and American Express would be fighting for their survival and turn into banks to ask for handouts from the govt. This current downturn is nothing like anything we've experienced since the Great Depression. All these firms survived the GD and now they're gone. In the past downturns, America had great manufacturing base and we exported more than we imported. Most importantly, people didn't have much debt and had some savings. We're entering this mess leveraged more than since the Great Depression and people have no savings to fall back on in case of job loss. Because of all the debt obligations like too large of mortgage, cars, and lifestyle credit cards, American people are screwed if they lose their job with so many people living paycheck to paycheck. In the past, people lived much simpler and with smaller debt so they could hunker down and survive a period of hardship by cutting back and tapping their savings. We don't have that now. Too many business relied on debt and built their business on debt. Same with the consumer with their lifestyle debt. It's going to be Armageddon. We haven't seen anything yet and by the time this is finished, it's going to make what Japan went through after their bubble collapse in the early 90s look like child's play. This debt bubble was the mother of all bubbles and it's going to be ugly and last for years.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: RedArmy

Originally posted by: ayabe
I'm hoping that things will be ok, there's a chance if gas prices stay more or less where they are and we get the economy to stop backfiring, they could be just fine.

How do you figure?

If they're able to secure loans and keep producing cars, things could be just fine in a year or two.

Hey, I'm not being naive I know things look grim, but there is still a possibility that they will survive.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

You're right, Ford made a HUUUGE mistake (LOL) by pouring money into the F-150. Oh wait, that's right. It was the best selling vehicle in America for 30 years. The truck market was so damn profitable for Ford and GM that Honda and Toyota worked overtime to try and get a piece of it. Luckily for them, they ended up mostly sticking with efficient small cars.

As for SUVs, they were incredibly high margin vehicles that raked in cash for both GM and Ford.

I think Ford and GM should have been better prepared for the end of the SUV era, but to criticize them for raking in cash is pretty stupid.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

You're right, Ford made a HUUUGE mistake (LOL) by pouring money into the F-150. Oh wait, that's right. It was the best selling vehicle in America for 30 years. The truck market was so damn profitable for Ford and GM that Honda and Toyota worked overtime to try and get a piece of it. Luckily for them, they ended up mostly sticking with efficient small cars.

As for SUVs, they were incredibly high margin vehicles that raked in cash for both GM and Ford.

I think Ford and GM should have been better prepared for the end of the SUV era, but to criticize them for raking in cash is pretty stupid.

In the heyday, Jeep was profitting almost $10,000 on every Grand Cherokee sold. Who would turn that down, again?

 

[Old Hippie]

It's not just GM. I never thought I would see icons like Bear Sterns, Lehman, AIG, Merrill Lynch go away in ......
...... This debt bubble was the mother of all bubbles and it's going to be ugly and last for years.

I understand and completely concur.

It just doesn't make it any easier.

I'm sitting here drinking my foreign-owned A.B. Budweiser beer and Googleing for a suitable US owned replacement. It's going to be my little itty bitty way to help the economy. :beer:

Maybe I can drink enough to give one unemployed autoworker a job.

 

[Kroze]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

You're right, Ford made a HUUUGE mistake (LOL) by pouring money into the F-150. Oh wait, that's right. It was the best selling vehicle in America for 30 years. The truck market was so damn profitable for Ford and GM that Honda and Toyota worked overtime to try and get a piece of it. Luckily for them, they ended up mostly sticking with efficient small cars.

As for SUVs, they were incredibly high margin vehicles that raked in cash for both GM and Ford.

I think Ford and GM should have been better prepared for the end of the SUV era, but to criticize them for raking in cash is pretty stupid.

So profitable that got them to this point of brink bankruptcy? $2/share FORD & $3/share GM? So profitable that GM hasn't announced any profitable quarter/year since 2004? Imagine being in the business of selling cars and you've been losing money for 4 going on 5 years straight.

You do know that both companies have used up all of their cash reserve right? That doesn't happen overnight. If the government doesn't include them in the $700 billion bailout plan, they're going bankrupt in 2009.

Well at least they're making a killing profit on their trucks & suv.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: Kroze

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

You're right, Ford made a HUUUGE mistake (LOL) by pouring money into the F-150. Oh wait, that's right. It was the best selling vehicle in America for 30 years. The truck market was so damn profitable for Ford and GM that Honda and Toyota worked overtime to try and get a piece of it. Luckily for them, they ended up mostly sticking with efficient small cars.

As for SUVs, they were incredibly high margin vehicles that raked in cash for both GM and Ford.

I think Ford and GM should have been better prepared for the end of the SUV era, but to criticize them for raking in cash is pretty stupid.

So profitable that got them to this point of brink bankruptcy? $2/share FORD & $3/share GM? So profitable that GM hasn't announced any profitable quarter/year since 2004? Imagine being in the business of selling cars and you've been losing money for 4 going on 5 years straight.

You do know that both companies have used up all of their cash reserve right? That doesn't happen overnight. If the government doesn't include them in the $700 billion bailout plan, they're going bankrupt in 2009.

Well at least they're making a killing profit on their trucks & suv.

Ummm, are you that daft?

 

[citan x]

Originally posted by: Old Hippie
guy that just wants to work his 8 hours and go home to his kids.

I can only but hope that people more intelligent than I will work-out some kind of solution.

This kind of thinking irks me. I just want to work my 8 hours and let other people think for me.

If you take no interest in how the place your work is run, then you have no basis for complaining when things go bad.

 

[FeuerFrei]

No such thing as 'too big to fail.'
It's foolhardy for government to remove the option of failure for big business once it reaches a critical mass.
It's not the government's job to mitigate job loss. Freedom to fail is just as essential as freedom to succeed/profit.

Competitive businesses will replace those that failed to compete. It's a cycle. Sucks to be caught in a downturn, but that's part of a healthy market correction.
Giving handouts doesn't ensure competitiveness or even survival. Just the opposite. Remember, you cannot guarantee customers. Government can prop up companies all it wants, but if few buy the products, it's a hopeless business case.

 

[crosshairs]

Originally posted by: Kroze
Gm, ford and Chrysler need to die. That's how capitalism works.

Crappy/inferior cars & overpaid workers are to blame. It's funny they blame everyone else but themselves. How the hell do you justify paying a guy $50 an hour for putting on pinstripe? Because he got time in? LOL. Them idiots at UAW need to blame themselves for being greedy

Yeah, that's the problem...The guy putting on the pistripes is overpaid......Its all the Unions fault...
what about the CEO.....who got a 67% raise in 2007
His salary went from 9.57 million to 15.7 million.....even though they posted a 39 Billion dollar loss.....
Get a clue dude.
The problem is now and always has been bad management...don't try and blame the workers..its lame and shows ignorance.

Originally posted by: Kroze
I know people are going to lose jobs but in the end, it's for the better. The tax payer should have to support a company that is poorly run and managed.

Where exactly do you suppose the tens thousands of unemployment checks will be coming from? The tooth fairy?

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Bignate603
The thing is that this is a self fulfilling prediction. Enough people saying that their stock is worthless will make the stock worthless.

Interesting, JPMorgan has rated GM a buy. Is this just to shore up the company against other bad news, or do they believe it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...lmotors_bonds_jpmorgan

EDIT: Woah

GM's benchmark 8.375 percent bond due 2033 has dropped to 25.75 cents on the dollar, from 36.5 cents at the end of October, according to MarketAxess. The bonds had traded at more than 80 cents on the dollar at the beginning of the year and currently yield 32.5 percent.

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

more like blame US. The consumer decides in the long end what gets built, the worker bitching about health care and benfits caused the Unions to stay and help bleed money out of the company.

Every one that has bought a new car, helped build them, or be part of the business is part of the problem.


Everyone bitching that they are just getting cars right in a 100yrs needs to STFU. They wouldn't have been in business for 100yrs if their cars were shit that long. In my opinion the 80's brought demise and it has continued.

Sucks if they go under, I drive a GM car, where will I get parts??

Where have people been getting parts for Olds, Plymouth, Datsun, Studebaker?

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Bignate603
The thing is that this is a self fulfilling prediction. Enough people saying that their stock is worthless will make the stock worthless.

Interesting, JPMorgan has rated GM a buy. Is this just to shore up the company against other bad news, or do they believe it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...lmotors_bonds_jpmorgan

EDIT: Woah

GM's benchmark 8.375 percent bond due 2033 has dropped to 25.75 cents on the dollar, from 36.5 cents at the end of October, according to MarketAxess. The bonds had traded at more than 80 cents on the dollar at the beginning of the year and currently yield 32.5 percent.

^^ That's what I'm thinking.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Originally posted by: crosshairs

Originally posted by: Kroze
Gm, ford and Chrysler need to die. That's how capitalism works.

Crappy/inferior cars & overpaid workers are to blame. It's funny they blame everyone else but themselves. How the hell do you justify paying a guy $50 an hour for putting on pinstripe? Because he got time in? LOL. Them idiots at UAW need to blame themselves for being greedy

Yeah, that's the problem...The guy putting on the pistripes is overpaid......Its all the Unions fault...
what about the CEO.....who got a 67% raise in 2007
His salary went from 9.57 million to 15.7 million.....even though they posted a 39 Billion dollar loss.....
Get a clue dude.
The problem is now and always has been bad management...don't try and blame the workers..its lame and shows ignorance.

Originally posted by: Kroze
I know people are going to lose jobs but in the end, it's for the better. The tax payer should have to support a company that is poorly run and managed.

Where exactly do you suppose the tens thousands of unemployment checks will be coming from? The tooth fairy?

It is everybody's fault. Management for being short-sighted and yes, the UAW is at fault too. Don't try and lay the blame on only one group or the other. Yes I know there are plenty of good people in the UAW but overall they've screwed themeselves by helping GM screw itself.

 

[StageLeft]

It is kind of scary, or at least that's what we're being told.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Kroze

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Kroze
also blame the guy who decide to put fuel efficient cars on the back burner and build gas guzzling suv, trucks, and hummer LOL. I guess now they know it's a huge mistake bit it's too late.

You're right, Ford made a HUUUGE mistake (LOL) by pouring money into the F-150. Oh wait, that's right. It was the best selling vehicle in America for 30 years. The truck market was so damn profitable for Ford and GM that Honda and Toyota worked overtime to try and get a piece of it. Luckily for them, they ended up mostly sticking with efficient small cars.

As for SUVs, they were incredibly high margin vehicles that raked in cash for both GM and Ford.

I think Ford and GM should have been better prepared for the end of the SUV era, but to criticize them for raking in cash is pretty stupid.

So profitable that got them to this point of brink bankruptcy? $2/share FORD & $3/share GM? So profitable that GM hasn't announced any profitable quarter/year since 2004? Imagine being in the business of selling cars and you've been losing money for 4 going on 5 years straight.

You do know that both companies have used up all of their cash reserve right? That doesn't happen overnight. If the government doesn't include them in the $700 billion bailout plan, they're going bankrupt in 2009.

Well at least they're making a killing profit on their trucks & suv.

Ummm, are you that daft?

Yes he is.

 

[slag]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Too bad. According to last night's TOP GEAR episode they're finally starting to make good cars.

Too little too late.

I wouldn't rely too much on top gear giving us the status of a carmaker.

I think GM has made great cars since at least 1997 when I bought my supercharged GTP. Great car, decent mileage, very very comfortable, stylish, and a plain joy to drive. Ultra dependable also.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: slag

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Too bad. According to last night's TOP GEAR episode they're finally starting to make good cars.

Too little too late.

I wouldn't rely too much on top gear giving us the status of a carmaker.

I think GM has made great cars since at least 1997 when I bought my supercharged GTP. Great car, decent mileage, very very comfortable, stylish, and a plain joy to drive. Ultra dependable also.

True, but when a group of people are anti-whatever and put down almost all of your products but somehow you are able to make something that blows them away and gets their praises. That's definitely saying something, I don't care who you are.

 

[Jeff7181]

I hope we don't see the government bail them out. They've proven they can't run their company profitably, giving them a loan will only delay the inevitable. I think a better idea would be for the big three to consolidate and become a single car company. Not good for workers, but better than all of them going belly up or having one survive and have the other two just disappear.

Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

 

[BATCH71]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

You Sir, have hit the nail on the head.

Dave

 

[SJP0tato]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

It's a nice idea. But when a Focus goes from $15k to $28k just because it's "Made in the USA" it wouldn't do much to help sales.

The masses here have already proven they won't pay extra for US/quality products. Walmart sells the US made padlocks alongside the cheap foreign knockoffs, and the foreign ones outsell the US made ones by a longshot.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I hope we don't see the government bail them out. They've proven they can't run their company profitably, giving them a loan will only delay the inevitable. I think a better idea would be for the big three to consolidate and become a single car company. Not good for workers, but better than all of them going belly up or having one survive and have the other two just disappear.

Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

you know why american steel was destroyed?

for one, they stopped investing in research (according to my metals teacher, metallurgist of 45+ years)

two, it became cheaper to import japanese steel. inefficiency FTL.


personally, i want to see GM live on. all of their new cars are fantastic.

if they go under, besides the economic fallout, there would be a massive hole in US manufacturing capability, and the capital required to start a company anywhere close to GM's scale has to be enormous.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: SJP0tato

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

It's a nice idea. But when a Focus goes from $15k to $28k just because it's "Made in the USA" it wouldn't do much to help sales.

The masses here have already proven they won't pay extra for US/quality products. Walmart sells the US made padlocks alongside the cheap foreign knockoffs, and the foreign ones outsell the US made ones by a longshot.

That's the thinking that got them in this mess. Sure it can be done cheaper overseas, but what's the TOTAL cost? You have to consider the lost wages of the people put out of a job by importing it.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal to pay $28k for a Focus if jobs hadn't been given to people overseas.

The government shouldn't be bailing companies out, what they should be doing is encouraging companies to create more jobs in the US so people earn money to buy products so the company doesn't need to be bailed out. International trade is without question essential, but when it puts millions of people out of work there needs to be some changes. What? I don't know... I'm not an expert. However, I do know that if I stop paying my friends, family and neighbors to build me a car, eventually they'll run out of money to buy the services I provide and I'll run out of money to buy a car from someone else and now we're both up the creek without a paddle.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: SJP0tato

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Another thing I'd like to see is true American cars. Every single part, from the raw steel and aluminum to the computer components manufactured and assembled right here in America.

It's a nice idea. But when a Focus goes from $15k to $28k just because it's "Made in the USA" it wouldn't do much to help sales.

The masses here have already proven they won't pay extra for US/quality products. Walmart sells the US made padlocks alongside the cheap foreign knockoffs, and the foreign ones outsell the US made ones by a longshot.

That's the thinking that got them in this mess. Sure it can be done cheaper overseas, but what's the TOTAL cost? You have to consider the lost wages of the people put out of a job by importing it.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal to pay $28k for a Focus if jobs hadn't been given to people overseas.

The government shouldn't be bailing companies out, what they should be doing is encouraging companies to create more jobs in the US so people earn money to buy products so the company doesn't need to be bailed out. International trade is without question essential, but when it puts millions of people out of work there needs to be some changes. What? I don't know... I'm not an expert. However, I do know that if I stop paying my friends, family and neighbors to build me a car, eventually they'll run out of money to buy the services I provide and I'll run out of money to buy a car from someone else and now we're both up the creek without a paddle.

The American consumer couldn't care less where the product they buy comes from. All they care about is getting it for as cheap as possible. They aren't going to pay $28k for a Focus, so trying to get the Gov't to encourage keeping jobs here would be a complete waste of time and money. The easiest thing to do would be to follow Japan and Europe and just tax the hell out of everything coming into the states. That would create a level pricing field, but no one would like that because it would raises prices for everything in the US pissing off the consumer, and lower the volume of exports from other countries pissing them off. Supporting anything that by design increases the cost of consumer goods is going to get an elected officials thrown out of office at the end of his term.

You're right, the government shouldn't be bailing companies out, but there are rare situations where they have to. The airline industry, for example, simply can not go under and see this country continue to function. GM is a company that is too vital to the US economy to let them just go out of business because they were stupid. Clearly one of the conditions of a gov't sponsored bail out would be to clean house at the top and make sure none of them get severence packages on the way out.

 

[Overgloc]

One word,Union