exactly... and... toyota's name will protect toyota even if they dare to drop a bit further...
nothing will shift the consumer unless GM bangs out logically and ergonomically designed interiors with fit and finish and a car w/ pleasing lines, and a solid feel w/ bang out reliability by hardworking smart factory workers in a union that care about its product.
Originally posted by: Theguynextdoor
Originally posted by: PingSpike
LOL...yeah. Or they'll go bankrupt and the tax payers will pick up the tab.
It was really, really, really stupid for the management to agree to such pensions in the first place. I would have bankrupted the company before I backed down on that one.
Of course, I'm stubborn and probably would have been fired and replaced by some one who would agree to those demands.
Hopefully when their UAW contract is up, they'll start replacing some the lazy slobs they have working for them.
ugh i wish.. big time politics embedded down to the bone...
gm is a big big private employer that acts like a subsidized govt. entity. that's the problem.
and gm's competitors don't have this dubious problem.... forget about the products being sold by either party.
the other problem is that they are public in the sense that they have stock, and report to shareholders looking for balance sheet numbers.... good luck... bad for our economy.
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
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Doh, I had a long reply typed, pressed Reply and the post was gone forever.
All vehicles have problems. All makers have recalls. All models have some lemons. All models have the occasional vehicle that never fails.
Suppose the averge vehicle has 10 problems in 10 years (I just made that number up, it is not based in reality, but it isn't probably very far off). Then the average lexus vehicle will have 5-6 problems in that time period. The average Chevrolet would have 10 problems in that time period. And the averge Land Rover would have 27-28 problems in that time period.
So of course the Lexus owners will have problems. No vehicle is perfect. Of course those owners of an expensive car will be unhappy and have a website divoted to these problems.
We are playing a statistics game here. You never know when you buy a vehicle what will really happen. But you are more likely to need repairs and more likely to be stranded if you get a vehicle at the bottom of the list. Can you get a Land Rover that never fails? Yes? Is it likely to happen? No. Can you get a Lexus that is a lemon? Yes. Is it likely to happen? Not as likely as a Land Rover.
That article has a "long term study" on 2005 vehicles. Worthless.
I'm talking about consumer reports of cars that have been driven for 10 years. Toyota and Honda are always on top. American cars get excellent ratings for the first few recent years and then suddenly plummet into crappiness.
My parents used to have a Mercury...we'll never make that mistake again. It had more problems as a 6 year old car than all the Hondas we own today. My brother and I each have 1992 Accords. No problems.
But don't take my anecdotal evidence, just pick up a consumer reports. It's the same for the masses.
Mr.IncrediblyBored
Lifer
- Jun 18, 2000
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My apologies, my question wasn't worded very well.
You claimed that GM vehicles are more likely to spend time in the shop than an import (Toyota, specifically). I asked how you came to this conclusion. Was it anecdotal evidence or some sort of survey or study?
edit: Oh, Consumer Reports. I should have finished reading the thread.
Ktulu
Diamond Member
- Dec 16, 2000
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I'm happy for you and your family, but if your gonna judge an entire company for some failed products then why not judge them all that way is all i'm saying. Fair is fair right?
And as for american cars not having long term reliability, i have personally seen several of my family member Chevy trucks go well beyond 300,000 miles. So don't tell me about long term reliability.
Consumer Reports is full of siht. The only review I ever use from it are the ones on disposable items. Their blatant tree-huggin, mostly anti-american anything dissapoints me. Yeah this japenese car is just as good as it's american version, but because it's japenese it's better.
Examples: Ford Probe, Mazda 625. Toyota corolla and geo prism.
Examples: Ford Probe, Mazda 625. Toyota corolla and geo prism.
BTW for those who think that I'm anti-japenese, I'm not. There are a few japnese cars that I would love to own and a few I believe deserve a lot of respect. Honda's S2000 is fun to drive and isn't as bland as the rest of it's line. Acura NSX and Toyota's Supra both deserve lots of respect.
Keep in mind for all recall statistics that they also include things other than parts that directly influence the safety, operation, or reliability of a vehicle, for instance, my Chevy S-10 was recalled due to the airbag warning/wear your seatbelt warning sticker on the visors not always staying in place and having a typo on them. Seeing as how mine are covered by CD holders, I don't really care either way.
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
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Apr 2005 issue: Page 80: Relaible used cars list:
<$4000: Chevrolet/Geo Prizm 97-98
$4000-$6000: Chevrolet Prizm 99-01, Toyota Corolla 97-99
$6000-$8000: Chevrolet Prizm 02, Toyota Corolla 00-01
Corolla is in the more expensive levels as well.
Hmm. What horrible bias as they recommend both.
Page 89: Reliability ratings:
They don't list the Ford Probe anymore as it isn't in production. The Mazda 626/ Mazda 6 is still listed: Average reliability for 97 and 99. Better than average reliability for 98, 00, 01, 02. Worse than average reliability for 03, 04. Predicted for 2005: Poor.
How did that compare to their Probe listings?
Page 17: US Autos Narrow the Gap
"Our survey also shows that improvement in the reliability of US vehicles was no fluke. American cars and trucks continue to edge closer to Japanese and Korean makes. European vehicles continue to be among the least reliable overall."
Wow, again they based American modes so much. :roll:
Isn't it obvious? They continue to produce oversized, gas-sucking pigmobiles as the market realizes it needs to have better fuel efficiency now that gas is at $3 a gallon, and Toyota is kicking their asses six ways 'til Sunday.
GM is *scared*, and they *should* be. With any luck this trend will continue and GM can die like it deserves to.
Jason
People here have reading comprehension problems. No one has said Toyota is not reliable.
Toyota's reliability lead over the competition is not what it used to be. Any quick perusal of a CR or JD Power survey from 6 years ago, vs. one from this year will likely confirm this.
Why shouldn't GM point that out? They've made great strides in improving both their initial and long term quality, bridging the gap between them and the market leader in this category to a fraction of what it used to be. That's absolutely something they should be pointing out to the press and to consumers.
Toyota's reliability lead over the competition is not what it used to be. Any quick perusal of a CR or JD Power survey from 6 years ago, vs. one from this year will likely confirm this.
Why shouldn't GM point that out? They've made great strides in improving both their initial and long term quality, bridging the gap between them and the market leader in this category to a fraction of what it used to be. That's absolutely something they should be pointing out to the press and to consumers.
Read the articles on how the "felt" about the vehicle.
EDIT: I know they recommended it, because it would be pie on their faces if they didn't (considering they know it's the same car). It's just the fact, that we they have to rub it in that you should more likely lean towards the toyota.
Oh, the Mazda 625 I was talking about was the early-mid 90's.
that won't be exactly true, foreign auto makers already have US plants here to hire the competent and hard working workers instead of several lazy ones hiding behind Union protection.
Too bad, so sad. GM's a waste of a company and the UNION is draining it dry. The sooner it dies, the sooner a COMPETENT company like Toyota or Honda can step up to fill the gap, and those displaced workers, at least a significant portion of them, can move into working for an *intelligent* manufacturer.
GM's a turd on the US job market's face.
Jason
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