"GM says Toyota quality is down" from CNN

[Theguynextdoor]

GM build cars I want. However their QC sucks royally. Which turns me off from purchases from most of their cars. Their older 80's early 90's stuff is rock solid. However most of their car problems are electrically related where the newer stuff's QC is affecting it the most. However this seems to have turned around in the past 2 years. I give props to GM for trying new stuff which is where I hope all Automakers should do. Toyota with the Hybrids and Ford with Ethanol. However I just wish the QC didn't suck so bad.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: dullard
There are two different concepts here.

1) Initial quality. New models or even new model years sometimes have designs or parts which just aren't up to standards. Recalls are common among all companies and these problems are fixed. No real harm done, and everyone is happy.

2) Long term reliability. Some makers have vehicles which have 10-100 times as many problems as other makers long term. This is what most people think is important.

Looks like GM is confusing #1 with #2. Or maybe, GM never has realized there is a difference.

There is a group of 200 GM engineers all in a room together as we speak looking up the term quality. They've been locked in there for 20 years. They still don't get it.

 

[Kilgor]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: KnightBreed
Other than anecdotal evidence, what is your source for this statement?

Common sense. If the starter is recalled, it has nothing at all to do with the failure rate of the airbags for example. If the starter is recalled immediately, or if it is recalled years later, common sense says the airbag reliability should be unaffected.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Kilgor

How can I clarify my point for you?

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: dullard
There are two different concepts here.

1) Initial quality. New models or even new model years sometimes have designs or parts which just aren't up to standards. Recalls are common among all companies and these problems are fixed. No real harm done, and everyone is happy.

2) Long term reliability. Some makers have vehicles which have 10-100 times as many problems as other makers long term. This is what most people think is important.

Looks like GM is confusing #1 with #2. Or maybe, GM never has realized there is a difference.

There's also the fact that there are *many* problems with vehicles that never causes an actual recall. Take my 97 Dodge RAM 1500. It is a well known problem that the mount for the drivers side mirror becomes loose, causing the mirror to turn inwards (making it useless and therefore a safety issue). The vehicle has never been recalled. While it can be fixed (the cheapest method is simply to weld it into place), it is not simple or cheap.

Yep. Acura/Honda has known as the former 2000-2003 TL's transmissions to be faulty but never recalled the car. Heck that was over a 4 year period too.

 

[sandorski]

GM is shivering in the corner seeing Toyota barreling down on them. When you're paranoid you say some crazy things. You also do crazy things, what's next, selling vehicles at a loss? Oh wait!

 

[mugs]

Why should I care about recalls? Don't they fix them for free? I care about the ones I have to pay for, the stuff that doesn't warrant a recall.

dullard++

 

[Ktulu]

Well the truth is Toyota has as many problems as any other car company, they just seem to have a better PR department to cover up their mistakes.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
i would for one would never buy an american car. they seem junky to me and have crappy gas mileage

My Saturn gets 30+ mpg and has 224,000 miles on it.

 

[Legend]

Well the truth is Toyota has as many problems as any other car company, they just seem to have a better PR department to cover up their mistakes.

Go look up long term reliability reports. Toyota and Honda are always on top.

 

[91TTZ]

GM is trying to survive until the the people living on pensions die off. GM pays out way too much money on pensions. They've restructured and now have to wait it out for the effects to show.

 

[Theguynextdoor]

I think one of GM's biggest problems is most of their cars are bought by lowerclass people and rednecks who do not know how to adequetly take care of their car. They drive it like they expect it to run forever or something and get mad when it does die. The rednecks that do take care of it usually don't bother getting the word out.

Also Toyota's and Honda's market are Middle to upperclass people whom just buy their cars and let the dealers take care of them. Which is where Toyota shines.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
GM is trying to survive until the the people living on pensions die off. GM pays out way too much money on pensions. They've restructured and now have to wait it out for the effects to show.

LOL...yeah. Or they'll go bankrupt and the tax payers will pick up the tab.

It was really, really, really stupid for the management to agree to such pensions in the first place. I would have bankrupted the company before I backed down on that one.

Of course, I'm stubborn and probably would have been fired and replaced by some one who would agree to those demands.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
GM is trying to survive until the the people living on pensions die off. GM pays out way too much money on pensions. They've restructured and now have to wait it out for the effects to show.

LOL...yeah. Or they'll go bankrupt and the tax payers will pick up the tab.

It was really, really, really stupid for the management to agree to such pensions in the first place. I would have bankrupted the company before I backed down on that one.

Of course, I'm stubborn and probably would have been fired and replaced by some one who would agree to those demands.

Pensions were how things were done back then. I wouldn't be suprised if a large majority of ATOTer have family members 1-2 generations out who have/will have pensions.

 

[Theguynextdoor]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
GM is trying to survive until the the people living on pensions die off. GM pays out way too much money on pensions. They've restructured and now have to wait it out for the effects to show.

LOL...yeah. Or they'll go bankrupt and the tax payers will pick up the tab.

It was really, really, really stupid for the management to agree to such pensions in the first place. I would have bankrupted the company before I backed down on that one.

Of course, I'm stubborn and probably would have been fired and replaced by some one who would agree to those demands.

Hopefully when their UAW contract is up, they'll start replacing some the lazy slobs they have working for them.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Well the truth is Toyota has as many problems as any other car company, they just seem to have a better PR department to cover up their mistakes.

I just love biased opinions without any evidence. Please show some form of thought or truth when posting flaming posts like that.

For example, Consumer Reports polls hundreds of thousands of their customers and asks how many problems did they have with their vehicle, how severe the problems were, and what main category did the problem appear in. Yes, there is a bit of vagueness in the "how severe was the problem", but I don't think that buyers of brand X will greatly exaggerate the problems compared to brand Y. But take minor variations with a grain of salt due to this vagueness. If I recall correctly, the data covers vehicles 0-8 years old (short to moderate term reliablity, long term isn't measured).

[*]Lexus vehicles have a median value of 55% fewer necessary repairs than the average vehicle.
[*]Toyota: median 53% more reliable
[*]Subaru: median 45% more reliable
[*]Honda: median 43% more reliable
...
[*]Chevrolet: median exactly at average reliablity
...
[*]Jaguar: 100% more problems than the average vehicle.
[*]Land Rover*: 175% more problems than the average vehicle.


* One model only, not a median.

 

[Paulson]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
i would for one would never buy an american car. they seem junky to me and have crappy gas mileage

My dad's 94 intrepid has 218,000 miles and gets 35mpg...

My mom's 97 lumina has 136,000 and gets 32mpg....

My 96 blazer has 169,850 miles and gets about 23mpg....

My dad used to have a 88 Park Avenue that was pimped out, and it had 238,000 miles before he got rid of it... that thing got 33mpg

So don't say american cars suck!

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Paulson

Originally posted by: totalcommand
i would for one would never buy an american car. they seem junky to me and have crappy gas mileage

My dad's 94 intrepid has 218,000 miles and gets 35mpg...

My mom's 97 lumina has 136,000 and gets 32mpg....

My 96 blazer has 169,850 miles and gets about 23mpg....

My dad used to have a 88 Park Avenue that was pimped out, and it had 238,000 miles before he got rid of it... that thing got 33mpg

So don't say american cars suck!

My 99 Jeep Wrangler has 71,000 miles and gets 12MPG, and would probably seriously injure the occupants of a Civic, Corolla, or Camry if we were to get into an accident.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Legend

Well the truth is Toyota has as many problems as any other car company, they just seem to have a better PR department to cover up their mistakes.

Go look up long term reliability reports. Toyota and Honda are always on top.

Yes i have looked up long term reliability report and while Toyot and Honda are on top so are GM(Buick and Cadillac) and Ford(Lincoln and Mercury) . Yet the American public never seems to understand this.

See for yourself

 

[SeaMonki]

Originally posted by: Paulson

Originally posted by: totalcommand
i would for one would never buy an american car. they seem junky to me and have crappy gas mileage

My dad's 94 intrepid has 218,000 miles and gets 35mpg...

My mom's 97 lumina has 136,000 and gets 32mpg....

My 96 blazer has 169,850 miles and gets about 23mpg....

My dad used to have a 88 Park Avenue that was pimped out, and it had 238,000 miles before he got rid of it... that thing got 33mpg

So don't say american cars suck!

Are those city or highway miles per gallon?

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Well the truth is Toyota has as many problems as any other car company, they just seem to have a better PR department to cover up their mistakes.

I just love biased opinions without any evidence. Please show some form of thought or truth when posting flaming posts like that.

For example, Consumer Reports polls hundreds of thousands of their customers and asks how many problems did they have with their vehicle, how severe the problems were, and what main category did the problem appear in. Yes, there is a bit of vagueness in the "how severe was the problem", but I don't think that buyers of brand X will greatly exaggerate the problems compared to brand Y. But take minor variations with a grain of salt due to this vagueness. If I recall correctly, the data covers vehicles 0-8 years old (short to moderate term reliablity, long term isn't measured).

[*]Lexus vehicles have a median value of 55% fewer necessary repairs than the average vehicle.
[*]Toyota: median 53% more reliable
[*]Subaru: median 45% more reliable
[*]Honda: median 43% more reliable
...
[*]Chevrolet: median exactly at average reliablity
...
[*]Jaguar: 100% more problems than the average vehicle.
[*]Land Rover*: 175% more problems than the average vehicle.


* One model only, not a median.

Could you provide a link then please. If your complaining about me not providing evidence, i believe you should at least provide a link to back up your claims right?

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Could you provide a link then please. If your complaining about me not providing evidence, i believe you should at least provide a link to back up your claims right?

Consumer Reports: April 2005, Annual Auto Issue, page 18.

Online you have to pay to see it, and I don't have an online subscription. Look it up in your library.

Like I said, take minor variations to be insignificant. So probably there isn't much evidence of Toyota being better than Honda in their survey. But they are significantly better than Chevrolet or Jaguar in reliability.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Could you provide a link then please. If your complaining about me not providing evidence, i believe you should at least provide a link to back up your claims right?

Consumer Reports: April 2005, Annual Auto Issue, page 18.

Online you have to pay to see it, and I don't have an online subscription. Look it up in your library.

Like I said, take minor variations to be insignificant. So probably there isn't much evidence of Toyota being better than Honda in their survey. But they are significantly better than Chevrolet or Jaguar in reliability.

Damn, i'll take a look when i get a chance, thanks though

but as far as comparing Toyota and GM, you need to look at all divisions not just one in particular.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Could you provide a link then please. If your complaining about me not providing evidence, i believe you should at least provide a link to back up your claims right?

Consumer Reports: April 2005 issue, Annual Auto Issue, page 18.

Online you have to pay to see it, and I don't have an online subscription. Look it up in your library.

IMHO, CS is full of it anyways. I prefer checking out forums dedicated to these cars to see where the real problems are. Every car has quirks/issues/problems, it's just about how much press they cause that makes it known.

If you don't believe me, check out us.lexusownersclub.com. Their forums are FULL of complaints about problems.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Damn, i'll take a look when i get a chance, thanks though

I read more on that article. The numbers posted only apply to car models currently being sold. So if a vehicle was discontinued in 1999, then that models relability was not used in the median numbers I gave you. To include all models, you'd have to look at the April 2004 issue.