GM Fuel Cell fleet to arive next year

MikeMike

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Feb 6, 2000
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TOM WALSH: H 2 OH!
GM's hydrogen fuel-cell fleet to arrive next year; mass production possible by 2011
September 17, 2006

BY TOM WALSH

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. -- General Motors Corp. is taking hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles out of the research realm and into the production arena, slapping a Chevrolet badge on them and launching what Vice Chairman Robert Lutz calls a "moon shot" effort to reestablish GM's technology leadership over Toyota Motor Corp. and the rest of the world auto industry.

Lutz said GM may have affordable hydrogen-powered cars available in mass-production volumes by 2011.

And if the United States government doesn't step up to help build fuel stations and other infrastructure to speed the coming of the hydrogen economy, Lutz is confident that China will.

"Maybe the first place to have 1 million fuel-cell cars will be China," Lutz told the Free Press in an interview at Camp Pendleton on Thursday. "And then it will be like Sputnik," he said, referring to the surprise Russian satellite launch in 1957 that galvanized the U.S. space program into action, "and we'll be like, 'How'd that ever happen?' "

Today, GM is to announce that it will build the world's largest fleet of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in 2007 -- more than 100 Chevrolet Equinox crossover vehicles to be deployed in California, and the New York and Washington, D.C., areas.

Last week, GM allowed journalists to drive its most advanced hydrogen-powered vehicle -- the Sequel, now also sporting a Chevy badge -- at the 126,000-acre Camp Pendleton Marine Corps base on the Pacific Ocean between Los Angeles and San Diego. The Sequel, first shown as a concept vehicle at the 2005 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, combines a hydrogen fuel-cell propulsion system, lithium-ion batteries and electronic steering and braking in a package that delivers quick acceleration, nimble handling and a driving range of 300 miles between fill-ups. By putting the Chevrolet badge on its hydrogen-powered vehicles, GM is sending a message that the company is moving beyond its turnaround phase and is ready to reassert its technology leadership, said Larry Burns, GM's vice president of research, development and strategic planning.

"Chevy says high volume, high value, spirited performance, and it's GM's global brand. This is just the tip of the technology spear," Burns said.

Lutz, a former Marine, enthusiastically waved a cigar around during an interview after joining Marines on a ride in an all-terrain vehicle on the base.

"This technology is a game changer," Lutz, who heads GM's worldwide product development, said about GM's hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced electronic technology. He wants to put it into GM's production plans now -- "even if we have to defer some other things" -- with an eye toward having a mass market fuel-cell car perhaps as soon as 2011.

"I want to demonstrably do something in a big way before Toyota does," Lutz said, chafing at the rave reviews GM's top global competitor has received for its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car.

"We need a moon shot," Lutz said, "to get out from the notion that Toyota is miraculous and GM is run by a bunch of aging stumblebums who wouldn't know technology if it hit 'em in the face."

Burns and Lutz said GM is ahead of other automakers in the power density, range and durability of its fuel-cell systems. The Equinox fleet, like today's Sequel, will have systems capable of lasting for 50,000 miles, but Burns said the next-generation system, now in GM's lab, will be capable of 150,000 miles.

David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, said that difficult issues about how to deliver hydrogen fuel around the country may delay the advent of a mass market for fuel-cell cars beyond the time frame envisioned by Lutz and Burns. GM's fuel-cell vehicles rely on separating hydrogen from natural gas, but countries with abundant electricity -- from geothermal sources in Iceland or surplus nuclear power in countries like France and eventually China -- plan to mass-produce hydrogen by the environmentally friendly electrolysis process.

Cole said GM is on the cutting edge of alternative fuels technology.

"This turnaround has been unfolding for 12-14 years deep inside GM," Cole said, referring to improvements in the company's manufacturing efficiency and global product development planning. "You're really starting to see the attitude and body language changing at GM. There's more confidence today."

GM doesn't have all of its alternative energy eggs in the hydrogen basket. It's launching a two-mode hybrid gas-electric version of the Chevy Tahoe next year and boasts about 15 car and truck models equipped to run on E85, a fuel made of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

"The auto industry has moved faster than the energy industry or the federal government on E85 and on fuel cells," Burns said, noting that capable vehicles are or will be ready before the infrastructure to deliver the fuel is.

Lutz said the United States will pay a competitive price if the country delays in supporting alternatives to imported oil.

And what if oil prices continue to decline, as they have in recent weeks? "It really doesn't matter because long-term there's the environmental thing," Lutz said. "And it's strategically important to create an alternative to oil.

"Energy supplies are uncertain and largely in enemy hands.

"Let's say gasoline goes to $1.25 a gallon, everybody in the U.S. goes back to huge sport-utes. Will we have made a mistake by betting on hydrogen? No, because the rest of the world will still be at $5 or $6 gasoline. ... The point is, we should not let the relative inactivity of the current U.S. administration on infrastructure become a reason to stop development of alternatives."

GM's massive cost-cutting efforts of the past year, coupled with signs that its vehicle sales and share of the U.S. market are starting to stabilize, have boosted internal confidence at the company, Lutz said.

As proof that GM is regaining its mojo, Lutz recounted how his boss, GM Chairman Rick Wagoner, reacted a few days ago to cautionary comments from another GM executive about the cost of some of GM's advanced technology programs and whether the company should hold back spending somewhat.

"Rick stepped right on him and said: 'That's what we've been doing for the last 20 years because of the burden of our legacy costs. Now we've saved $9 billion a year. Let's devote a significant portion of that to re-establishing GM's technology leadership, GM's fuel economy leadership, GM's design leadership.' "

Lutz, Burns and Wagoner don't suggest that GM is a sure bet to prevail in the automotive technology wars of the future. Germany's BMW is making a big investment in hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines. DaimlerChrysler has a strong position in diesels. Toyota's the current leader in hybrids, and Honda, Toyota and others also have fuel-cell programs.

But Detroit's big dog is definitely awake now. And barking like he's hungry.

good article, and good quotes by Lutz.
 

Ktulu

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Dec 16, 2000
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I'm sure nobody will pay attention to this here, now replace GM with Toyota and watch to orgasms commence.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Cost per vehicle?

Solved the cold weather issues?

Range between fillups?

Cost/infrastructure for fuel?

There's a reason Toyota (and all the other big manufacturers) aren't releasing fleets this early. It's a nice environmental gesture, but an empty financial prospect this early in the game.
 

Ktulu

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Dec 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Cost per vehicle?

Solved the cold weather issues?

Range between fillups?

Cost/infrastructure for fuel?

There's a reason Toyota (and all the other big manufacturers) aren't releasing fleets this early. It's a nice environmental gesture, but an empty financial prospect this early in the game.

There's a reason why they're only introducing 100 vehicles right now, and i'm pretty sure they're not looking for profit.

Isn't Honda releasing a fuel cell car in a couple years also and BMW is also releasing a hydrogen 7 series within the next year. But of course since it's GM it must be a huge mistake.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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Honda already leases out the Honda FCX, and it's on the road, and available to anyone who wants to lease it. Where exactly is GM leading again?
 

UDT89

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Jul 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen is cr@p, battery power is much more energy efficient.


hydrogen is a natural gas........would much rather rely on hydrogen than man made batteries.
 

Fenixgoon

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Jun 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen is cr@p, battery power is much more energy efficient.

where does your electricity come from? oh that's right, 51% is generated by coal:disgust:
 

BrownTown

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Dec 1, 2005
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Hydrogen isn't natural, you don't find molecular hydrogen just lying around, you have to make it.

EDIT @ Fenixgoon, and where does your hydrogen come from? The same coal, except it takes twice as much for the same amount of energy...
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen isn't natural, you don't find molecular hydrogen just lying around, you have to make it.

EDIT @ Fenixgoon, and where does your hydrogen come from? The same coal, except it takes twice as much for the same amount of energy...

electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.
 

UDT89

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Jul 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen isn't natural, you don't find molecular hydrogen just lying around, you have to make it.

EDIT @ Fenixgoon, and where does your hydrogen come from? The same coal, except it takes twice as much for the same amount of energy...

electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.


yea i thought the hydrogen is coming from water.
 

BrownTown

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there are efforts on all fronts. Although many people consider oil dependance the worst since out oil is imported unlike our coal which is home grown.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.

BANANAs - Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything

- Can't build nuclear power plants because of enviro fears
- Can't build wind farms because birds either run into the blades and die or it obstructs the view of the Kennedy compound.
- Can't offer incentives to be more efficient in producing stuff from factories/manufacturing plants because that might encourage them to produce more stuff.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: UDT89
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen isn't natural, you don't find molecular hydrogen just lying around, you have to make it.

EDIT @ Fenixgoon, and where does your hydrogen come from? The same coal, except it takes twice as much for the same amount of energy...

electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.


yea i thought the hydrogen is coming from water.

It is but it doesn't magically appear. It takes energy to seperate out the hydrogen.
 

StevenYoo

Diamond Member
Jul 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: UDT89
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Hydrogen isn't natural, you don't find molecular hydrogen just lying around, you have to make it.

EDIT @ Fenixgoon, and where does your hydrogen come from? The same coal, except it takes twice as much for the same amount of energy...

electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.


yea i thought the hydrogen is coming from water.

the electrolysis process requires energy to do. that energy comes from the burning of fossil fuels, unless you're in iceland, like the article says.
 

BrownTown

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Dec 1, 2005
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OMG, BANANAs are so funny, I love those people. My dads worked at a power company for 30 years, and its so absurd how much cheaper power would be if companies could actually build the plants WHERE and WHEN they want them. They spend as much time and nearly as much money trying to cut threw the red tape to build a new plant as they do to actually buidl the thing.
 

TheSlamma

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Sep 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: Ktulu
I'm sure nobody will pay attention to this here, now replace GM with Toyota and watch to orgasms commence.
If they make good on it then I would pay attention.... but their electric car never made it and their version of hybrid has been vehicles that gets 17mpg.



 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
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fobot.com
Originally posted by: BrownTown
OMG, BANANAs are so funny, I love those people. My dads worked at a power company for 30 years, and its so absurd how much cheaper power would be if companies could actually build the plants WHERE and WHEN they want them. They spend as much time and nearly as much money trying to cut threw the red tape to build a new plant as they do to actually buidl the thing.

some maroons around here are making the electric company tear down a brand NEW power plant because they failed to get a permit before construction from the county. they had a permit from the state, but the county took them to court and got the judge to rule in favor of the county. now this brand new $140 million (whatever, something like that) power plant has to be taken down/moved/destroyed/mothballed due to BANANAS

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/15455369.htm
 

BrownTown

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Dec 1, 2005
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Oh man thats nothing, TVA had to cancel 15 Billion (with a B) of nuke plants after three mile island casued everyone to go apeshit. There are just these random cooling towers and containment buildings sitting around rotting away.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,124
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Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
electrolysis of water ftw? i dont know how they create hydrogen, nor do i really care - only 20% of CO2 emissions are from consumer vehicles. the largest portion is from industry, which everyone neglects. we're trying to make "green" vehicles that will do far less in reducing environmental pollution instead of creating nuclear power plants, wind/solar plants where possible, reducing pollution from factories, manufacturing plants, etc.

BANANAs - Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything

- Can't build nuclear power plants because of enviro fears
- Can't build wind farms because birds either run into the blades and die or it obstructs the view of the Kennedy compound.
- Can't offer incentives to be more efficient in producing stuff from factories/manufacturing plants because that might encourage them to produce more stuff.

this is the entire problem - people fear nuclear power and yet aside from TMI and Chernobyl, both of which were poorly built, there have been no accidents related to nuclera power plants to date. Nuclear waste is stored in secure drums that withstand 55mph train impacts (see History Channel's "Dangerous Cargo"). The american public is averse to it because they are ignorant - just like they want better federal programs/funding while budgets and taxes are reduced. not gonna happen unless you learn how reality works.