GM = Bankrupt

[spittledip]

Jeez, all those poor people without jobs. I always figured GM closing down would be inevitable. I wonder how much it will hurt the country?

I think Ford has been doing alot better since the late 90s. Too bad they cant shake their bad rep. Or make more appealing cars for the masses. I figure Ford will be the ones to hold on the longest of the 3.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: redly1
Ford will be the first one to go (my bet)

Their bread and butter is the F150, which is tanking hard in sales
The lost the competitive edge/crown in cars a decade or so ago
They have no decent economy car

All trucks are tanking in sales hard, but ford still sold almost 40,000 f-150s last month. So they will only sell 500k this year instead of 900,000. People still need trucks, however more people will getting a truck because they need one and not because they want one. The 09 f-150 will be out in a couple months and it will offer better fuel economy. Its improved 4.6 v8 and 6 speed transmission should perform almost as well at most tasks as the current years 5.4 v8.

Nissan sold only 1200 titans, not doubt this full size truck will soon be gone.

the 09 escape will have class leading fuel economy and hybrid escape will do even better.
The focus and fusion are selling well and ford probably needs to ramp production of their smaller vehicles.
I believe ford 09 lineup will have a couple more hybrid models joining the escape.

In short ford is reasonably well positioned to surved, but they do have to change their vehicle mix and will take a bit of time. Same goes for GM as they have decent small car linup a well(malibu and cobalt are selling well).

I agree. Ford also has the Focus, which is a really reliable, fuel-saving, economy car. For the price, it's one of the best cars on the market. Ford will be hurt in the short-term by declining truck sales, but they have all the resources they need to remain competitive in the future.

 

[OokiiNeko]

Actually both ford and gm have decent small cars in their linventory.

EXACTLY! They just refuse to sell them in America.

Isn`t that strange? The cars are already in production. No development costs, minor Federal testing to go through and we could all be driving fuel efficient vehicles within one year. Wouldn`t an announcement like that save GM and Ford from having their stocks tank? Instead, GM unveils a new style DENALI????

So answer this:

Why do Ford and GM refuse to sell their fuel efficient European model cars in America?

🙂

P.S. Prof John, once you had the benefit of my doubt, but now I find it hard to believe anyone buys your bullshit.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
So answer this:

Why do Ford and GM refuse to sell their fuel efficient European model cars in America?

Historically, up until now, they have only (and sporadically) brought over their entry level small cars, to slot in, price wise, under their larger American designed and made models.

All the fine cars that Ford and GM offer in Europe, they haven't for the most part imported because they cost as much as their larger American brethern, and GM and Ford have rightly in the past made the assessment that Americans simply wouldn't pay equivalent prices for smaller cars with smaller engines, at least up until now.

So, here, we have been stuck with a Focus that is simply not as good as the European Focus, because the better European Focus costs much more to build and sell.

Not that long ago, Ford brought the European/World designed Mondeo to these shores (but built here) as the Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique. They were fine cars, but tanked in our market.

GM brought fairly nice Opels (German GM) as small Cadillacs, and they, too, tanked here.

This will all now change, you can be sure, but there IS a lead time, as the European models of GM and Ford must be retrofitted to American crash/safety specs.

It's not easy being large.

 

[SlickSnake]

Don't forget Ford owns 33% of Mazda and their most successful SUV at this moment is the Escape and the Escape Hybrid. Both are rebadged Mazdas. The difference is the Mazdas sell far fewer in the US markets and are harder and more expensive to get parts for.

Ford has also substantially improved and downsized even the luxurious Jaguars.

Ford also owns Land Rover and Volvo.

I think Ford is a long way from going broke. They can just stop producing gas guzzlers and start producing more fuel friendly cars in their place. Ford has traditionally been more able to bend to rapidly shifting market forces than GM ever has. GM reminds me of some reanimated car corpse the way they cling to ugly designs and poor ergonomics on many of their vehicles.

Chrysler is also the number one selling US vehicle brand in China due to an exclusive agreement with the government years ago. They are also working with Chinese companies like Chery to produce vehicles there. Chrysler is also going to increase domestic production there. Chrysler is far from dead since Cerberus Capital Management acquired an 80% share a year ago.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The figure is only $1500? Have any proof?

I see a story saying $750, but it is 3 years old. However I shall fix my post unless I find something more up to date.

Just google 'how much GM pays per car for worker healthcare'. A number of articles pop up saying $1500. One said $1400, another $1600.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Don't forget Ford owns 33% of Mazda and their most successful SUV at this moment is the Escape and the Escape Hybrid. Both are rebadged Mazdas. The difference is the Mazdas sell far fewer in the US markets and are harder and more expensive to get parts for.

Ford has also substantially improved and downsized even the luxurious Jaguars.

Ford also owns Land Rover and Volvo.

I think Ford is a long way from going broke. They can just stop producing gas guzzlers and start producing more fuel friendly cars in their place. Ford has traditionally been more able to bend to rapidly shifting market forces than GM ever has. GM reminds me of some reanimated car corpse the way they cling to ugly designs and poor ergonomics on many of their vehicles.

Chrysler is also the number one selling US vehicle brand in China due to an exclusive agreement with the government years ago. They are also working with Chinese companies like Chery to produce vehicles there. Chrysler is also going to increase domestic production there. Chrysler is far from dead since Cerberus Capital Management acquired an 80% share a year ago.

Lots of misinformation here:

The Ford Escape is NOT a rebadged Mazda. While Mazda did have a collaborative hand in its design and engineering, it certainly did not have a total one. The Escape uses Ford engines and transmissions and many other Ford corporate parts. In fact, the Mazda Tribute is nothing but a rebadged Ford Escape!

Ford no longer owns either Jaguar or Land Rover. And, none of the Ford designed Jaguars were considered a success. Ford lost money with Jaguar every single year they owned them.

And Chrysler is NOT the number one selling US vehicle brand in China, by a LONG SHOT. GM is, and has been. In fact, GM leads ALL foreign brands, followed by VW.

Chrysler sales in China DOUBLED last March (from March 2007), to a whopping 4,839, for ALL their brands of trucks and cars. This May, the top ten sellers in China contained three GM products, one Ford, but no Chrysler products whatsoever. The total one month sales of just the top three GM sedan products was over 40,000.

In 2006, GM led all foreign brands with sales of 665,390 units Again, this was a year in which Chrysler struggled to sell ~30,000 units.

Need it even be said that there was never any "exclusive agreement with the government years ago" between China and Chrysler?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Don't forget Ford owns 33% of Mazda and their most successful SUV at this moment is the Escape and the Escape Hybrid. Both are rebadged Mazdas. The difference is the Mazdas sell far fewer in the US markets and are harder and more expensive to get parts for.

Ford has also substantially improved and downsized even the luxurious Jaguars.

Ford also owns Land Rover and Volvo.

I think Ford is a long way from going broke. They can just stop producing gas guzzlers and start producing more fuel friendly cars in their place. Ford has traditionally been more able to bend to rapidly shifting market forces than GM ever has. GM reminds me of some reanimated car corpse the way they cling to ugly designs and poor ergonomics on many of their vehicles.

Chrysler is also the number one selling US vehicle brand in China due to an exclusive agreement with the government years ago. They are also working with Chinese companies like Chery to produce vehicles there. Chrysler is also going to increase domestic production there. Chrysler is far from dead since Cerberus Capital Management acquired an 80% share a year ago.

Chrysler was an LBO and it's exactly why it will go bk.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: JS80
Chrysler was an LBO and it's exactly why it will go bk.

I tend to disagree. They have a MUCH leaner management, and have been in and out of talks with both Renault and Nissan about serious collaboration, if not eventual outright merger, which would give them instant access to world class platforms.

 

[StageLeft]

The problem is the unions AND the product AND management. There is no reason to pay somebody to do a menial, brainless task at $28/hour when the free market says they'll do it at $14 (case in point recently Ford bought out a bunch of their employees at $28 and hired replacements at $14--union had kept wages artificially high for a brainless task). Their vehicles have worked ok but they've been top-heavy for a while. With low gas it worked, but even Toyota is getting pinched heavily now because they are also top-heavy with the size of vehicles and sales in the US are plummeting as they are for domestic manufacturers. Few anticipated where gas is now, but it has been creeping up for years. It does take several years to conceive of, and put in showrooms, a new car, but an already top-heavy manufacturer being already bled dry with an oppressive union and you have the continued demise of the domestic manufacturers. I believe also that the "I only buy American" has worked in their favor for many, many years to reward otherwise substandard behavior.

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

 

[charrison]

perknose,

Ford still has volvo, but they are up for sale. Ford did alot for jag, but it was a terrible investment.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko

Actually both ford and gm have decent small cars in their linventory.

EXACTLY! They just refuse to sell them in America.

Isn`t that strange? The cars are already in production. No development costs, minor Federal testing to go through and we could all be driving fuel efficient vehicles within one year. Wouldn`t an announcement like that save GM and Ford from having their stocks tank? Instead, GM unveils a new style DENALI????

So answer this:

Why do Ford and GM refuse to sell their fuel efficient European model cars in America?

🙂

P.S. Prof John, once you had the benefit of my doubt, but now I find it hard to believe anyone buys your bullshit.

Mainly because those European turbo diesels will not pass emissions tests in the US. You can thank our government for that. The emissions equipment adds some significant cost to the price of the car, which is probably why ford is going with downsized turbocharged gas engines in the near future.

 

[OokiiNeko]

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Funny how you mentioned three things then focused on one.

But Honda?s Marysville plant operated with dollars, not yen. And at Marysville, Honda hired Americans, trained them and, with few exceptions, paid them wages virtually equal to Detroit?s. So what was Honda doing differently?

Funny how management and product are what is different between Honda and Detroit, and yet your boogeyman is the one facet that is nearly identical.

Millions of dollars in compensation for losing money, makes perfect business sense.

🙂

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: JS80
Chrysler was an LBO and it's exactly why it will go bk.

I tend to disagree. They have a MUCH leaner management, and have been in and out of talks with both Renault and Nissan about serious collaboration, if not eventual outright merger, which would give them instant access to world class platforms.

They also have Nardelli, who already had one shot at fucking a company up big-time and succeeded quite well. Look at HD supply, what a complete and utter disaster. It was his baby and he got a nice fat check as "reward" for doing that. Then he gets another CEO position.

Chrysler is about dead. They make almost no vehicles that people want. Their Dodge division is about all that's left and that is sucking wind with the land barges it produces.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: ericlp
Dunno if they will go bankrupt but it serves them right for building gas guzzlers and I believe they a division of the hummer ...

I just kinda hope that Ford and Chevy follow them as they had a lot of time to build a smart car that can get 40+ MPG's. Any company that couldn't see what was going to happen in the past few years deserves what they get.

It has nothing to do with gas guzzlers and everything to do with a union that is bleeding them dry.

I believe that for every car they build they spend a lot on healthcare costs. (amount is questionable, perhaps $750 or $1500 not 100% sure)

We have had LONG threads about how the people who sweep the floors in their factories make $20 an hour thanks to the union etc.

You are so wrong on this PJ. It has more to do with SUVs than you are saying.....

Yes healthcare costs are high, union costs are high too, but the profit margin on a sedan is about 1/3 to 1/4 less than on an SUV percentage wise, and in real terms its even higher. The 35k SUV you buy from GM they make about 10k in profit on it. The 35K sedan? They are lucky to make a few grand off of that.

With the recent buy-outs GM has improved their union costs dramatically. Right now, no one wants to buy their Tahoe's and Envoy's etc.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Funny how you mentioned three things then focused on one.

I mentioned in detail two : unions and vehicles. I threw management in as a bone to the whiners. When I'm paid for P&N I'll raise the bar on quality of my posts 😀

 

[lupi]

For the actual topic of GM going broke, I believe they only have a couple more years to provide funding to the health care system they conned the union into assuming control over. That only should put a big swing in their financial statements.


Now for the oh so surprising FUD in the thread, not only does GM sell the most vehicles in the US, they do already have several models in the mid to upper 30's MPG. This of course ignores the entire posturing by the elected officials whom stated if they were elected into control of the legislative branch that they would reduce gas prices only to then say once they were the majority that higher prices were good for the health of the planet.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: redly1
Ford will be the first one to go (my bet)

Their bread and butter is the F150, which is tanking hard in sales
The lost the competitive edge/crown in cars a decade or so ago
They have no decent economy car

All trucks are tanking in sales hard, but ford still sold almost 40,000 f-150s last month. So they will only sell 500k this year instead of 900,000. People still need trucks, however more people will getting a truck because they need one and not because they want one. The 09 f-150 will be out in a couple months and it will offer better fuel economy. Its improved 4.6 v8 and 6 speed transmission should perform almost as well at most tasks as the current years 5.4 v8.

Nissan sold only 1200 titans, not doubt this full size truck will soon be gone.

the 09 escape will have class leading fuel economy and hybrid escape will do even better.
The focus and fusion are selling well and ford probably needs to ramp production of their smaller vehicles.
I believe ford 09 lineup will have a couple more hybrid models joining the escape.

In short ford is reasonably well positioned to surved, but they do have to change their vehicle mix and will take a bit of time. Same goes for GM as they have decent small car linup a well(malibu and cobalt are selling well).

I agree. Ford also has the Focus, which is a really reliable, fuel-saving, economy car. For the price, it's one of the best cars on the market. Ford will be hurt in the short-term by declining truck sales, but they have all the resources they need to remain competitive in the future.

Ford only has one Focus factory and they don't have money to build another one.
They can't keep up with demand leaving Honda to gobble everything up.
What good is it if they can't make enough of it?

Read the article I posted earlier.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080702/honda_s_hot_month.html

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The problem is the unions AND the product AND management. There is no reason to pay somebody to do a menial, brainless task at $28/hour when the free market says they'll do it at $14 (case in point recently Ford bought out a bunch of their employees at $28 and hired replacements at $14--union had kept wages artificially high for a brainless task). Their vehicles have worked ok but they've been top-heavy for a while. With low gas it worked, but even Toyota is getting pinched heavily now because they are also top-heavy with the size of vehicles and sales in the US are plummeting as they are for domestic manufacturers. Few anticipated where gas is now, but it has been creeping up for years. It does take several years to conceive of, and put in showrooms, a new car, but an already top-heavy manufacturer being already bled dry with an oppressive union and you have the continued demise of the domestic manufacturers. I believe also that the "I only buy American" has worked in their favor for many, many years to reward otherwise substandard behavior.

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Your post about unions makes sense...Until you realize that Toyota pays their workers more in wages and benefits than what Ford and GM UAW workers get.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The problem is the unions AND the product AND management. There is no reason to pay somebody to do a menial, brainless task at $28/hour when the free market says they'll do it at $14 (case in point recently Ford bought out a bunch of their employees at $28 and hired replacements at $14--union had kept wages artificially high for a brainless task). Their vehicles have worked ok but they've been top-heavy for a while. With low gas it worked, but even Toyota is getting pinched heavily now because they are also top-heavy with the size of vehicles and sales in the US are plummeting as they are for domestic manufacturers. Few anticipated where gas is now, but it has been creeping up for years. It does take several years to conceive of, and put in showrooms, a new car, but an already top-heavy manufacturer being already bled dry with an oppressive union and you have the continued demise of the domestic manufacturers. I believe also that the "I only buy American" has worked in their favor for many, many years to reward otherwise substandard behavior.

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Your post about unions makes sense...Until you realize that Toyota pays their workers more in wages and benefits than what Ford and GM UAW workers get.

They have too. If they paid $15 and hour without any benies all they'd be able to get to work for them would be teenagers and illegals as nobody could raise a family these days on those wages.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The problem is the unions AND the product AND management. There is no reason to pay somebody to do a menial, brainless task at $28/hour when the free market says they'll do it at $14 (case in point recently Ford bought out a bunch of their employees at $28 and hired replacements at $14--union had kept wages artificially high for a brainless task). Their vehicles have worked ok but they've been top-heavy for a while. With low gas it worked, but even Toyota is getting pinched heavily now because they are also top-heavy with the size of vehicles and sales in the US are plummeting as they are for domestic manufacturers. Few anticipated where gas is now, but it has been creeping up for years. It does take several years to conceive of, and put in showrooms, a new car, but an already top-heavy manufacturer being already bled dry with an oppressive union and you have the continued demise of the domestic manufacturers. I believe also that the "I only buy American" has worked in their favor for many, many years to reward otherwise substandard behavior.

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Your post about unions makes sense...Until you realize that Toyota pays their workers more in wages and benefits than what Ford and GM UAW workers get.

After a quick google search it appears that Honda pays considerably less than the "big 3". Haven't looked into Toyota yet.

Also looks like they are actively avoiding hiring laid off union workers.

"When Honda Motor Co. announced last year that it was building a new plant amid the farms of southeastern Indiana, Hoosiers cheered. Then Honda announced in August that only people living in 20 of the state's 92 counties could apply for jobs -- a move that excluded most of the state's thousands of unionized laid-off auto workers."

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The problem is the unions AND the product AND management. There is no reason to pay somebody to do a menial, brainless task at $28/hour when the free market says they'll do it at $14 (case in point recently Ford bought out a bunch of their employees at $28 and hired replacements at $14--union had kept wages artificially high for a brainless task). Their vehicles have worked ok but they've been top-heavy for a while. With low gas it worked, but even Toyota is getting pinched heavily now because they are also top-heavy with the size of vehicles and sales in the US are plummeting as they are for domestic manufacturers. Few anticipated where gas is now, but it has been creeping up for years. It does take several years to conceive of, and put in showrooms, a new car, but an already top-heavy manufacturer being already bled dry with an oppressive union and you have the continued demise of the domestic manufacturers. I believe also that the "I only buy American" has worked in their favor for many, many years to reward otherwise substandard behavior.

Funny thing about you people who support a high-school grad working a task that can be taught in 15 hours making $30/hour + benefits is that he won't even have this job after his employer closes down yet another factory and he's in it.

Your post about unions makes sense...Until you realize that Toyota pays their workers more in wages and benefits than what Ford and GM UAW workers get.

After a quick google search it appears that Honda pays considerably less than the "big 3". Haven't looked into Toyota yet.

Also looks like they are actively avoiding hiring laid off union workers.

"When Honda Motor Co. announced last year that it was building a new plant amid the farms of southeastern Indiana, Hoosiers cheered. Then Honda announced in August that only people living in 20 of the state's 92 counties could apply for jobs -- a move that excluded most of the state's thousands of unionized laid-off auto workers."

Toyota does.
That's why I specifically mentioned them.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko

Actually both ford and gm have decent small cars in their linventory.

EXACTLY! They just refuse to sell them in America.

Isn`t that strange? The cars are already in production. No development costs, minor Federal testing to go through and we could all be driving fuel efficient vehicles within one year. Wouldn`t an announcement like that save GM and Ford from having their stocks tank? Instead, GM unveils a new style DENALI????

So answer this:

Why do Ford and GM refuse to sell their fuel efficient European model cars in America?

🙂

P.S. Prof John, once you had the benefit of my doubt, but now I find it hard to believe anyone buys your bullshit.

I always wondered this as well. Have you seen the Euro version of the ford focus? Awesome - Its the same one that they sell in Mexico. Ford's US design teams suck major too. Just about all the Euro designs are much much better.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Your post about unions makes sense...Until you realize that Toyota pays their workers more in wages and benefits than what Ford and GM UAW workers get.

They have too. If they paid $15 and hour without any benies all they'd be able to get to work for them would be teenagers and illegals as nobody could raise a family these days on those wages.
[/quote]

Forgetting for a moment the benefits; namely health insurance - no one could raise a family on those wages in Mass., but in Michigan, with two incomes, that's a pretty decent wage. That's roughly 60k per year; MUCH higher than the median household income in Detroit ($36,571), higher than in that county ($50,505), and higher than the U.S. median household income ($51,022). Only on Anandtech does everyone receive a 6 figure salary.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't believe that Toyota/Honda, et al. IN THE US pay factory-line workers the same amount (including benefits) as the Big3 for similar duties. Onus is on somebody to prove me wrong, I just don't buy it. The unions hardly seem to have worked if it's the case.