GM asks for $16.4B more, Chrysler $5B more

[MikeMike]

http://www.media.chrysler.com/...LongTerm_Viability.pdf

GM Viability

Well, we knew they would need more money, obviously chrysler who is smaller needs less money... Ch. 11 is going to be a bitch if they go through. GM wants to cut 45k jobs globally, close 5 US plants, and more... still waiting on their viability plan.

 

[TallBill]

LET THEM DIE

 

[postmortemIA]

^indeed, we're not gonna buy them anymore... why pay twice for a car that loses 1/2 of its value every year...

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA
^indeed, we're not gonna buy them anymore... why pay twice for a car that loses 1/2 of its value every year...

yup, like the CTS, which has best resale value in its class... yup

 

[Schadenfroh]

They should never have been bailed out in the first place, let them go into chapter 11, it is unavoidable in their current form.

 

[StageLeft]

I hope nobody is surprised by this. It was unequivocally predictable months ago when they first got the loans that they would beg for more money when the run was close to running out.

 

[Genx87]

Come on if only they have another 25 billion to get them over the hump.

 

[jpeyton]

Either help the company survive this economic downturn, or start cutting tens of thousands of welfare/unemployment checks.

You're going to pay for it one way or another.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I hope nobody is surprised by this. It was unequivocally predictable months ago when they first got the loans that they would beg for more money when the run was close to running out.

Of course but remember all that supply chain fear we were fed to justify the first round of waste. Now it looks like all we did was spend 25 billion and will still get the supplier implosion.

 

[postmortemIA]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: postmortemIA
^indeed, we're not gonna buy them anymore... why pay twice for a car that loses 1/2 of its value every year...

yup, like the CTS, which has best resale value in its class... yup

what an argument by providing the exception to the rule.

Worst 5 Models in Value Retention
Rank Brand Model 3-Year Retention
1. Ford Freestar 27%
2. Ford **Taurus 28%
3. Chrysler Sebring convertible 28%
4. Chevrolet Uplander 28%
5. Pontiac Montana 30%

cached link

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: postmortemIA
^indeed, we're not gonna buy them anymore... why pay twice for a car that loses 1/2 of its value every year...

yup, like the CTS, which has best resale value in its class... yup

what an argument by providing the exception to the rule.

Worst 5 Models in Value Retention
Rank Brand Model 3-Year Retention
1. Ford Freestar 27% (Cancelled)
2. Ford **Taurus 28%
3. Chrysler Sebring convertible 28%(hah, this is the worst car almost ever)
4. Chevrolet Uplander 28% (cancelled)
5. Pontiac Montana 30% (cancelleD)

cached link

i'd rather talk about current vehicles from GM than cancelled vehicles.

 

[MikeyLSU]

you had to be an idiot not to see this one coming. And guess what, they will probably get the money and in another 6 months, will be asking for more handouts.

Badly run companies fail, that is a fact of life. We shouldn't be the business of helping failed companies, they failed for a reason.

 

[Veramocor]

Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
you had to be an idiot not to see this one coming. And guess what, they will probably get the money and in another 6 months, will be asking for more handouts.

Badly run companies fail, that is a fact of life. We shouldn't be the business of helping failed companies, they failed for a reason.

They dug a hole to live in, the only question we have is this: Do we jump in with them?

Anyone that says yes needs to be locked up, or at least have duct tape applied.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: postmortemIA
^indeed, we're not gonna buy them anymore... why pay twice for a car that loses 1/2 of its value every year...

yup, like the CTS, which has best resale value in its class... yup

Well, to be honest, not everyone really cares about resale value. Like the stock markets these days, it is based on perception, not reality. There are plenty of reasons to chose one car over another that have much more relevance than resale value.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

Ideally, that is what would happen, but most markets don't have that kind of efficiency, especially the auto industry (and other heavy industry). You can let them fail, but they will take a LOT of people down with them. Better to keep things going until times are good again, and split 'em up so that they are no longer 'too big to fail', just like the banks.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I hope nobody is surprised by this. It was unequivocally predictable months ago when they first got the loans that they would beg for more money when the run was close to running out.

Of course but remember all that supply chain fear we were fed to justify the first round of waste. Now it looks like all we did was spend 25 billion and will still get the supplier implosion.

But of course, it merely pushed it off a few months. Last year GM said it was burning up to $4B/month, so simple math said that the paltry amount they were getting would merely stem the bleeding for a few months, and low and behold here we are and they are asking for money again as if the first alotment didn't exist.

They will get money, and then again this year they will ask for yet more. This is as predictable as the sun rising and setting.

Sucks to own a Saturn, though, their resale as bad enough. With the brand now on the road to being killed, it will go down even more.

 

[Red Squirrel]

GM, Ford and Chrysler need to put all their assets together, and work together, perhaps even a merge is in order. Maybe just have 2 companies instead of 3? I don't know, I'm no expert and I don't fully understand the details of their bad situation I just know it's bad. I'm sure there's a way they can get themselves out of this mess without needing tons of money from the government. I really would not want to see them go away. We already buy everything else from china, it's good to at least be able to buy a car that is built in our own continent.

Heck if they have to shut down for a few months to recoop money, then go for it. That may even be their best bet. It really sucks for anyone employed there though... whatever they do, tons of jobs will be lost, it's just a matter of when. I'm sure there's already been tons of layoffs.

 

[Veramocor]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

Ideally, that is what would happen, but most markets don't have that kind of efficiency, especially the auto industry (and other heavy industry). You can let them fail, but they will take a LOT of people down with them. Better to keep things going until times are good again, and split 'em up so that they are no longer 'too big to fail', just like the banks.

Other problem is by letting GM fail completely, a company like Ford will fail, it will even hurt the Japanese companies that buy American parts.

Once GM fails, they stop buying parts from suppliers. This causes many suppliers t go out of business. Screwing over companies like Ford andToyota who can't buy parts anymore.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

Ideally, that is what would happen, but most markets don't have that kind of efficiency, especially the auto industry (and other heavy industry). You can let them fail, but they will take a LOT of people down with them. Better to keep things going until times are good again, and split 'em up so that they are no longer 'too big to fail', just like the banks.

When times are good they dont get split. Because obviously times are good
They will be split and purchased at the right price. That is how the efficiency comes into play. Honda buys their assets for 10 cents on the dollar. When the market rebounds they appreciate a nice amount of wealth and the purchased assets produce at a more efficient rate.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Veramocor

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

Ideally, that is what would happen, but most markets don't have that kind of efficiency, especially the auto industry (and other heavy industry). You can let them fail, but they will take a LOT of people down with them. Better to keep things going until times are good again, and split 'em up so that they are no longer 'too big to fail', just like the banks.

Other problem is by letting GM fail completely, a company like Ford will fail, it will even hurt the Japanese companies that buy American parts.

Once GM fails, they stop buying parts from suppliers. This causes many suppliers t go out of business. Screwing over companies like Ford andToyota who can't buy parts anymore.

I think the suppliers can scale their production if it comes to that. They have to anyways due to a lower demand of cars from a buying public.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Government should come up with a special bankruptcy plan (GM only screw Chrysler one bailout only). Call it chapter X or something. GM declares a chapter 11 like bankruptcy, the government guarantees warranty claims, government supplies a restructuring loan. In exchange the government gets 1st payment status on the loans and a percentage of the company.

In this quasi chapter 11 GM can ditch dealerships, unwieldy union contracts, and excess brands.

Or you can let the company file and restructure or be split up abd consumed into other more healthy competitors. I see the govt getting involved as prolonging the pain. Much like a cancer patient being pumped full of medicine to live 1 more day.

Ideally, that is what would happen, but most markets don't have that kind of efficiency, especially the auto industry (and other heavy industry). You can let them fail, but they will take a LOT of people down with them. Better to keep things going until times are good again, and split 'em up so that they are no longer 'too big to fail', just like the banks.

Other problem is by letting GM fail completely, a company like Ford will fail, it will even hurt the Japanese companies that buy American parts.

Once GM fails, they stop buying parts from suppliers. This causes many suppliers t go out of business. Screwing over companies like Ford andToyota who can't buy parts anymore.

I think the suppliers can scale their production if it comes to that. They have to anyways due to a lower demand of cars from a buying public.

Right, but everyone will be scaling back, heck Toyota is already offering 18K US employees buyouts. That is just a sign of things to come.

 

[LTC8K6]

I still think a bonfire is a more productive use of the money...

At least we'd get some useful heat out of it...

 

[theeedude]

It's kinda sad, but now I think we should just let them fail.
I mean we are bailing GM out so it can lay off more workers, and bailing Chrysler out so it can sell us Nissans and Fiats?
I just think they have too many liabilities to be saved.