Global Warming

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IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,975
141
106
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: Amused
The Earth's climate has been warming and cooling for millions of years. That we are now technologically advanced enough to notice it makes no difference.

..but what if you want to establish a punitive emissions credit racket and pretend humans are to blame for cyclic changes in weather??

Text


SPEAKING FREELY
The global warming scam
By Derek Kelly, PhD


But it is plain to see that both warming and cooling occurred numerous times before the Industrial Revolution. Similarly, all the dire predictions of global-warming consequences - sea-level rise, for example - have happened in the past. In fact, the greatest warming period was when dinosaurs walked the land (about 70 million to 130 million years ago). There was then five to 10 times as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is today, and the average temperature was 4-11 degrees Celsius warmer. Those conditions should have been very helpful to life, since they permitted those immense creatures to find an abundance of food and they survived.

The major "sin" for the global warmists is CO2. The Kyoto treaty is meant to reduce the amount of this gas so as, they say, to reduce the degree of warming and eventually return us to some stable climate system. If we look at the historical situation, however, this is cause for alarm. For one thing, there has never been a stable climate system. For another, the level of CO2 in our atmosphere is near its historic low. In the long run, the greatest danger is too little rather than too much CO2. There has been a long-term reduction of CO2 throughout the 4.5-billion-year history of the Earth. If this tendency continues, eventually our planet may become as lifeless as Mars.

Glaciation has prevailed for 90% of the last several million years. Extreme cold. Biting cold. Cold too intense for bikinis and swimming trunks. No matter what scary scenarios global-warming enthusiasts dream up, they pale in comparison with the conditions another ice age would deliver. Look to our past climate. Fifteen thousand years ago, an ice sheet a kilometer and a half thick covered all of North America north of a line stretching from somewhere around Seattle to Cleveland and New York City.

Instead of reducing CO2, we should, perhaps, be increasing it. We should pay the smokestack industries hard dollars for every kilogram of soot they pump into the atmosphere. Instead of urging Chinese to stop using coal and turn instead to nuclear-generated electricity, we should beg them to continue using coal. Rather than bringing us to the edge of global-warming catastrophe, anthropogenic climate change may have spared us descent into what would be the most serious and far-reaching challenge facing humankind in the 21st century - dealing with a rapidly deteriorating climate that wants to plunge us into an ice age. Let's hope Antarctica and Greenland melt. Let's hope the sea levels rise. All life glorifies warmth. Only death prefers the icy fingers of endless winter




 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: Amused
The Earth's climate has been warming and cooling for millions of years. That we are now technologically advanced enough to notice it makes no difference.

Have you not seen the graphs? We are technologically advanced enough to detect change for a long long long time and climate change has been significantly accelerated by human activity. Scientifici consensus > your lack of knowledge.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: Wnh5001
of course its valid, there have been countries that have experience a way higher cancer rate, due to the higher concentration of radiation penetrating the earth. and the obvious one where all the ice is melting, teh day after tommorow here we go..

Increased radiation is due to the depleted ozone layer, not global warming.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
It's a fact, and in 10,000 years we'll be ruled by monkeys. After that happens, the dolphins will take pity on our once great species and convince the whales to join them in overthrowing the cruel monkey overlords of humankind. Following centuries of war and strife, the alliance of dolphins and whales finally defeats the last of the great monkey warlords and a state of utopian society begins on earth. Humankind is still being ruled over because it is determined that they don't always know what's best for them, but the new dolphin overlords are nice so no one really minds. It's almost 11,000 years from now but I can hardly wait.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
The theories and assumptions behind "Global Warming" are junk science at best. Weather and climate change happen and would continue even if all the humans were dead.

It's mostly a political manuever aimed at hiding behind science. Why else would politicians care?

I like the idea of being ruled by dolphins though! :D
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Best talk I have ever heard about the global warming, "the sky is falling", environmentalism hysteria.

Michael Crichton's viewpoint

Did you read State of Fear?

More of Crichton's viewpoint. Text

Why Politicized Science is Dangerous
(Excerpted from State of Fear)

Imagine that there is a new scientific theory that warns of an impending crisis, and points to a way out.

This theory quickly draws support from leading scientists, politicians and celebrities around the world. Research is funded by distinguished philanthropies, and carried out at prestigious universities. The crisis is reported frequently in the media. The science is taught in college and high school classrooms.

I don't mean global warming. I'm talking about another theory, which rose to prominence a century ago.

Its supporters included Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Winston Churchill. It was approved by Supreme Court justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis, who ruled in its favor. The famous names who supported it included Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone; activist Margaret Sanger; botanist Luther Burbank; Leland Stanford, founder of Stanford University; the novelist H. G. Wells; the playwright George Bernard Shaw; and hundreds of others. Nobel Prize winners gave support. Research was backed by the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations. The Cold Springs Harbor Institute was built to carry out this research, but important work was also done at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and Johns Hopkins. Legislation to address the crisis was passed in states from New York to California.

These efforts had the support of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Medical Association, and the National Research Council. It was said that if Jesus were alive, he would have supported this effort.

All in all, the research, legislation and molding of public opinion surrounding the theory went on for almost half a century. Those who opposed the theory were shouted down and called reactionary, blind to reality, or just plain ignorant. But in hindsight, what is surprising is that so few people objected.

Today, we know that this famous theory that gained so much support was actually pseudoscience. The crisis it claimed was nonexistent. And the actions taken in the name of theory were morally and criminally wrong. Ultimately, they led to the deaths of millions of people.

The theory was eugenics, and its history is so dreadful --- and, to those who were caught up in it, so embarrassing --- that it is now rarely discussed. But it is a story that should be well know to every citizen, so that its horrors are not repeated.

The theory of eugenics postulated a crisis of the gene pool leading to the deterioration of the human race. The best human beings were not breeding as rapidly as the inferior ones --- the foreigners, immigrants, Jews, degenerates, the unfit, and the "feeble minded." Francis Galton, a respected British scientist, first speculated about this area, but his ideas were taken far beyond anything he intended. They were adopted by science-minded Americans, as well as those who had no interest in science but who were worried about the immigration of inferior races early in the twentieth century --- "dangerous human pests" who represented "the rising tide of imbeciles" and who were polluting the best of the human race.

The eugenicists and the immigrationists joined forces to put a stop to this. The plan was to identify individuals who were feeble-minded --- Jews were agreed to be largely feeble-minded, but so were many foreigners, as well as blacks --- and stop them from breeding by isolation in institutions or by sterilization.

As Margaret Sanger said, "Fostering the good-for-nothing at the expense of the good is an extreme cruelty ? there is not greater curse to posterity than that of bequeathing them an increasing population of imbeciles." She spoke of the burden of caring for "this dead weight of human waste."

Such views were widely shared. H.G. Wells spoke against "ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens." Theodore Roosevelt said that "Society has no business to permit degenerates to reproduce their kind." Luther Burbank" "Stop permitting criminals and weaklings to reproduce." George Bernard Shaw said that only eugenics could save mankind.

There was overt racism in this movement, exemplified by texts such as "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy" by American author Lothrop Stoddard. But, at the time, racism was considered an unremarkable aspect of the effort to attain a marvelous goal --- the improvement of humankind in the future. It was this avant-garde notion that attracted the most liberal and progressive minds of a generation. California was one of twenty-nine American states to pass laws allowing sterilization, but it proved the most-forward-looking and enthusiastic --- more sterilizations were carried out in California than anywhere else in America.

Eugenics research was funded by the Carnegie Foundation, and later by the Rockefeller Foundation. The latter was so enthusiastic that even after the center of the eugenics effort moved to Germany, and involved the gassing of individuals from mental institutions, the Rockefeller Foundation continued to finance German researchers at a very high level. (The foundation was quiet about it, but they were still funding research in 1939, only months before the onset of World War II.)

Since the 1920s, American eugenicists had been jealous because the Germans had taken leadership of the movement away from them. The Germans were admirably progressive. They set up ordinary-looking houses where "mental defectives" were brought and interviewed one at a time, before being led into a back room, which was, in fact, a gas chamber. There, they were gassed with carbon monoxide, and their bodies disposed of in a crematorium located on the property.

Eventually, this program was expanded into a vast network of concentration camps located near railroad lines, enabling the efficient transport and of killing ten million undesirables.

After World War II, nobody was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenicist. Biographers of the celebrated and the powerful did not dwell on the attractions of this philosophy to their subjects, and sometimes did not mention it at all. Eugenics ceased to be a subject for college classrooms, although some argue that its ideas continue to have currency in disguised form.

But in retrospect, three points stand out. First, despite the construction of Cold Springs Harbor Laboratory, despite the efforts of universities and the pleadings of lawyers, there was no scientific basis for eugenics. In fact, nobody at that time knew what a gene really was. The movement was able to proceed because it employed vague terms never rigorously defined. "Feeble-mindedness" could mean anything from poverty to illiteracy to epilepsy. Similarly, there was no clear definition of "degenerate" or "unfit."

Second, the eugenics movement was really a social program masquerading as a scientific one. What drove it was concern about immigration and racism and undesirable people moving into one's neighborhood or country. Once again, vague terminology helped conceal what was really going on.

Third, and most distressing, the scientific establishment in both the United States and Germany did not mount any sustained protest. Quite the contrary. In Germany scientists quickly fell into line with the program. Modern German researchers have gone back to review Nazi documents from the 1930s. They expected to find directives telling scientists what research should be done. But none were necessary. In the words of Ute Deichman, "Scientists, including those who were not members of the [Nazi] party, helped to get funding for their work through their modified behavior and direct cooperation with the state." Deichman speaks of the "active role of scientists themselves in regard to Nazi race policy ? where [research] was aimed at confirming the racial doctrine ? no external pressure can be documented." German scientists adjusted their research interests to the new policies. And those few who did not adjust disappeared.

A second example of politicized science is quite different in character, but it exemplifies the hazard of government ideology controlling the work of science, and of uncritical media promoting false concepts. Trofim Denisovich Lysenko was a self-promoting peasant who, it was said, "solved the problem of fertilizing the fields without fertilizers and minerals." In 1928 he claimed to have invented a procedure called vernalization, by which seeds were moistened and chilled to enhance the later growth of crops.

Lysenko's methods never faced a rigorous test, but his claim that his treated seeds passed on their characteristics to the next generation represented a revival of Lamarckian ideas at a time when the rest of the world was embracing Mendelian genetics. Josef Stalin was drawn to Lamarckian ideas, which implied a future unbounded by hereditary constraints; he also wanted improved agricultural production. Lysenko promised both, and became the darling of a Soviet media that was on the lookout for stories about clever peasants who had developed revolutionary procedures.

Lysenko was portrayed as a genius, and he milked his celebrity for all it was worth. He was especially skillful at denouncing this opponents. He used questionnaires from farmers to prove that vernalization increased crop yields, and thus avoided any direct tests. Carried on a wave of state-sponsored enthusiasm, his rise was rapid. By 1937, he was a member of the Supreme Soviet.

By then, Lysenko and his theories dominated Russian biology. The result was famines that killed millions, and purges that sent hundreds of dissenting Soviet scientists to the gulags or the firing squads. Lysenko was aggressive in attacking genetics, which was finally banned as "bourgeois pseudoscience" in 1948. There was never any basis for Lysenko's ideas, yet he controlled Soviet research for thirty years. Lysenkoism ended in the 1960s, but Russian biology still has not entirely recovered from that era.

Now we are engaged in a great new theory that once again has drawn the support of politicians, scientists, and celebrities around the world. Once again, the theory is promoted by major foundations. Once again, the research is carried out at prestigious universities. Once again, legislation is passed and social programs are urged in its name. Once again, critics are few and harshly dealt with.

Once again, the measures being urged have little basis in fact or science. Once again, groups with other agendas are hiding behind a movement that appears high-minded. Once again, claims of moral superiority are used to justify extreme actions. Once again, the fact that some people are hurt is shrugged off because an abstract cause is said to be greater than any human consequences. Once again, vague terms like sustainability and generational justice --- terms that have no agreed definition --- are employed in the service of a new crisis.

I am not arguing that global warming is the same as eugenics. But the similarities are not superficial. And I do claim that open and frank discussion of the data, and of the issues, is being suppressed. Leading scientific journals have taken strong editorial positions of the side of global warming, which, I argue, they have no business doing. Under the circumstances, any scientist who has doubts understands clearly that they will be wise to mute their expression.

One proof of this suppression is the fact that so many of the outspoken critics of global warming are retired professors. These individuals are not longer seeking grants, and no longer have to face colleagues whose grant applications and career advancement may be jeopardized by their criticisms.

In science, the old men are usually wrong. But in politics, the old men are wise, counsel caution, and in the end are often right.

The past history of human belief is a cautionary tale. We have killed thousands of our fellow human beings because we believed they had signed a contract with the devil, and had become witches. We still kill more than a thousand people each year for witchcraft. In my view, there is only one hope for humankind to emerge from what Carl Sagan called "the demon-haunted world" of our past. That hope is science.

But as Alston Chase put it, "when the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power."

That is the danger we now face. And this is why the intermixing of science and politics is a bad combination, with a bad history. We must remember the history, and be certain that what we present to the world as knowledge is disinterested and honest.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,975
141
106
Originally posted by: jjones
It's a fact, and in 10,000 years we'll be ruled by monkeys. After that happens, the dolphins will take pity on our once great species and convince the whales to join them in overthrowing the cruel monkey overlords of humankind. Following centuries of war and strife, the alliance of dolphins and whales finally defeats the last of the great monkey warlords and a state of utopian society begins on earth. Humankind is still being ruled over because it is determined that they don't always know what's best for them, but the new dolphin overlords are nice so no one really minds. It's almost 11,000 years from now but I can hardly wait.

..we are ruled by monkeys.

Text

These fused vertebrae are the only vestiges that are left of the tail that other mammals still use for balance, communication, and in some primates, as a prehensile limb. As our ancestors were learning to walk upright, their tail became useless, and it slowly disappeared. It has been suggested that the coccyx helps to anchor minor muscles and may support pelvic organs. However, there have been many well documented medical cases where the tailbone has been surgically removed with little or no adverse effects. There have been documented cases of infants born with tails, an extended version of the tailbone that is composed of extra vertebrae. There are no adverse health effects of such a tail, unless perhaps the child was born in the Dark Ages. In that case, the child and the mother, now considered witches, would?ve been killed instantly.


 

gamepad

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2005
1,893
1
71
We need Captain Planet.

But seriously, whether or not humans play a role in the rising temperatures, I would be down for reduced emissions.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,975
141
106
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.



Text


SPEAKING FREELY
The global warming scam
By Derek Kelly, PhD


But it is plain to see that both warming and cooling occurred numerous times before the Industrial Revolution. Similarly, all the dire predictions of global-warming consequences - sea-level rise, for example - have happened in the past. In fact, the greatest warming period was when dinosaurs walked the land (about 70 million to 130 million years ago). There was then five to 10 times as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is today, and the average temperature was 4-11 degrees Celsius warmer. Those conditions should have been very helpful to life, since they permitted those immense creatures to find an abundance of food and they survived.

The major "sin" for the global warmists is CO2. The Kyoto treaty is meant to reduce the amount of this gas so as, they say, to reduce the degree of warming and eventually return us to some stable climate system. If we look at the historical situation, however, this is cause for alarm. For one thing, there has never been a stable climate system. For another, the level of CO2 in our atmosphere is near its historic low. In the long run, the greatest danger is too little rather than too much CO2. There has been a long-term reduction of CO2 throughout the 4.5-billion-year history of the Earth. If this tendency continues, eventually our planet may become as lifeless as Mars.

Glaciation has prevailed for 90% of the last several million years. Extreme cold. Biting cold. Cold too intense for bikinis and swimming trunks. No matter what scary scenarios global-warming enthusiasts dream up, they pale in comparison with the conditions another ice age would deliver. Look to our past climate. Fifteen thousand years ago, an ice sheet a kilometer and a half thick covered all of North America north of a line stretching from somewhere around Seattle to Cleveland and New York City.

Instead of reducing CO2, we should, perhaps, be increasing it. We should pay the smokestack industries hard dollars for every kilogram of soot they pump into the atmosphere. Instead of urging Chinese to stop using coal and turn instead to nuclear-generated electricity, we should beg them to continue using coal. Rather than bringing us to the edge of global-warming catastrophe, anthropogenic climate change may have spared us descent into what would be the most serious and far-reaching challenge facing humankind in the 21st century - dealing with a rapidly deteriorating climate that wants to plunge us into an ice age. Let's hope Antarctica and Greenland melt. Let's hope the sea levels rise. All life glorifies warmth. Only death prefers the icy fingers of endless winter
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Ban gas guzzling SUVs!

Seriously, those things need to go the way of the Dodo bird.
Your STi scarcely gets better gas mileage than most SUVs.

Originally posted by: deathkoba
It was 55 degrees in the middle of winter in the northeast. I think it's valid.
The winter in the Pacific NW this year was more than 1 C below average this year. You might want to expand your dataset before jumping to conclusions.


Change is normal. Only Chicken Littles are alarmed by it. Quit buying what the media sells.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.



Text


SPEAKING FREELY
The global warming scam
By Derek Kelly, PhD

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Okay dude, really. Quit quoting the same sh|t over and over again.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Nik
Okay dude, really. Quit quoting the same sh|t over and over again.
I agree he shouldn't have posted the same thing twice, but it is true. Did you know that in the year 1816 (IIRC) there was no summer in the northern hemisphere? It snowed in NYC in the middle of July. Global warming should be the last concern on everyone's minds. The big threat is another ice age. Hell, we just got out of the last one a mere 15k years ago -- less than a blink of the eye in geological timescale.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.



Text


SPEAKING FREELY
The global warming scam
By Derek Kelly, PhD


That has nothing to do with anything. I said in my post that climate change occurs naturally. NO ******. The problem is climate change occurring as rapidly as it is now.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: Squisher

But, that "negative affect" might be tantamount to a pimple on an elephant's ass.

A pimple which could pop and become infected, eventually bringing down the entire elephant.

I believe in it. Almost all winter long in MI it was warm. Some weeks the lowest temp was 33 or 32 degrees. Snow would fall one day then the next it day it was gone. I think we got more rain then snow.
Global warming isn't talking about "OMG, it's warm in winter now!" It means an average increase in global temperatures of like 1 degree Celcius. But when you do that over the entire planet, you're talking about a HUGE area of water. A slight increase in temperature means a lot more water evaporating. More water in the air can provide for more extreme weather variations, including things such as 70 degrees in January in higher latitudes. But it can also vary the other way - the next week you can get record snowfall. Swing it back then to 70 degrees, and you get flooding.
Or to take this to a warmer time, like May, you might wind up with freakishly late frosts because some frigid Canadian air gets redirected far south.

To those saying that global warming is part of a natural cycle: Ok, that may be. But either way, global warming can have serious repercussions on our society, so it isn't really in our best interests to help it along, even if it may be analagous to the pimple on the elephant's ass. We may just be one pimple among many, but still, which would you rather have - 9 pimples or 10?
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,998
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Nik
Okay dude, really. Quit quoting the same sh|t over and over again.
I agree he shouldn't have posted the same thing twice, but it is true. Did you know that in the year 1816 (IIRC) there was no summer in the northern hemisphere? It snowed in NYC in the middle of July. Global warming should be the last concern on everyone's minds. The big threat is another ice age. Hell, we just got out of the last one a mere 15k years ago -- less than a blink of the eye in geological timescale.


It was indeed 1816, it's come to be known as "The Year with No Summer". That was not some sort of fluke in the natural cycle though, it was in effect a miniature version of nuclear winter. Mount Tambora in Indonesia exploded and ejected enough dirt and dust into the atmosphere to block out enough sunlight that it impacted weather around the world.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
*looks at outdoor thermometer*

i think what we have going on is global cooling. at least here.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,390
19,707
146
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.

1. Correlation does not mean causation

2. WTF are "normal natural rates" for climate change? The climate has changed slowly, and rapidly historically. Sometimes in as little as a century.
There is no such thing as "normal natural rates" for climate change.

Have you not seen the graphs? We are technologically advanced enough to detect change for a long long long time and climate change has been significantly accelerated by human activity. Scientifici consensus > your lack of knowledge.

Yes, I have. The difference is I rely on proof, you fall for supposition and fear mongering. There have been far mor dramtic, rapid climate changes noted by scientists in the history of the earth. This all goes back to your fantasy "normal natural rates" for climate change that you pulled out of your ass.

 

mercanucaribe

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Oct 20, 2004
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I'm amazed at the ignorance being displayed in this thread. Have you people ever taken a geology, paleontology, or climatology class? I'd assume not.

1) Climate change is normal. The climate is constantly changing due to the Milankovitch cycle, plate tectonics altering ocean currents, and feedbacks from the biosphere. No one denies this.

2) We have global average temperature data going back 740,000 years. This is how it works.. temperature affects the ratios between isotopes of oxygen in anarctic ice, and by coring, we can get an accurate record. Hydrogen isotopes are also used.

3) Humans' burning of fossil fuels and deforestation have resulted in an increase of atmospheric CO2 from 270ppm to 360ppm between 1800 and 2000. This type of increase almost never occurs naturally, and when it does it's the result of something like a rash of volcanism. There is absolutely no doubt that the increase is anthropogenic.

4) The increase in CO2 concentration is directly correlated with warming, and global average temperature will continue to rise as more greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere. Current warming is much faster than normal natural rates. This is scientific fact, not hypothesis.

5) Warming is hugely mitigated by the oceans. The increase in CO2 would be double what it is if it were not for the increase in photosynthesis by plankton. This is a negative feedback that obviously doesn't completely cancel warming.

5) Global warming does not mean that everywhere gets warmer. The conveyor belt of ocean currents that keeps the northern hemisphere from freezing will slow with the additiono of fresh water from melting ice caps, which could make it a lot colder up here.

1. Correlation does not mean causation

2. WTF are "normal natural rates" for climate change? The climate has changed slowly, and rapidly historically. Sometimes in as little as a century.
There is no such thing as "normal natural rates" for climate change.

Have you not seen the graphs? We are technologically advanced enough to detect change for a long long long time and climate change has been significantly accelerated by human activity. Scientifici consensus > your lack of knowledge.

Yes, I have. The difference is I rely on proof, you fall for supposition and fear mongering. There have been far mor dramtic, rapid climate changes noted by scientists in the history of the earth. This all goes back to your fantasy "normal natural rates" for climate change that you pulled out of your ass.

Okay... climate changed rapidly 65 million years ago, and all the dinosaurs went extinct as a result. No big deal.

Did you not read my post? I specifically said that huge increases in greenhouse gases have resulted from vulcanism... Rapid climate shift happens rarely, and to assume that one is happening now, coincidentally with human release of CO2, would require a lot of faith. What's more, plant and animal species are at a bigger risk of extinction now, with their habitats fragmented and greatly reduced by human land use. Normally a few degrees of warming over 1000 years would be responded to by populations shifting their ranges gradually. Now they have to shift their ranges rapidly, which is difficult in a highly developed place like North America, and is impossible for some species that require very specific habitats.
That isn't just a problem if you care about the inherent value of biodiversity.. it's detrimental to agriculture and especially ranching.
 

shoegazer

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May 22, 2005
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We've got ice core data on temperature (oxygen isotope fractionation) and on a variety of greenhouse gases (taken from the air bubbles frozen in the ice) going back over 400,000 years. The one gas that consistently matches the rises and falls of temperature over this period is CO2.

Causation ain't correlation you might say? Well, we have a mechanism for the connection between CO2 and temperature. CO2 is a greenhouse gas and absorbs infrared radiation from earth and reflects it back down.

Remember, without natural global warming there wouldn't be any life on this planet because it would be an iceball. Yes, the most important greenhouse gas is water vapor, but it has a residence time on the order of days, whereas the average CO2 molecule stays in the atmosphere for over a hundred years.

We're releasing carbon, in the form of CO2, into the atmosphere after it has been buried in the earth for hundreds of millions of years.

The concentration has risen from around 270 parts per million to 381ppm since the industrial revolution and this rise can be traced back to us.

Luckily for most of us, global warming will hit countries around the equator hardest (largely "3rd world" countries). Agriculture won't fair well with rising temperatures in places where crops are already being pushed to their limits to feed the fastest growing populations on the planet.

Not that countries like America will get off easy. More powerful and frequent tropical storms and rising sea levels will end up costing the U.S. more money than the switch to renewable energy would.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
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Originally posted by: shoegazer
We've got ice core data on temperature (oxygen isotope fractionation) and on a variety of greenhouse gases (taken from the air bubbles frozen in the ice) going back over 400,000 years. The one gas that consistently matches the rises and falls of temperature over this period is CO2.

Causation ain't correlation you might say? Well, we have a mechanism for the connection between CO2 and temperature. CO2 is a greenhouse gas and absorbs infrared radiation from earth and reflects it back down.

Yes, exactly. There's a reason CO2 is considered a greenhouse gas, and it's not because it is only found in greenhouses.

Also, the problem for agriculture isn't just increased temperature, but also drought.