Global Warming and the Poor

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Everyone right now who is sitting in front of an air conditioner, or hanging out at the beach or by your in-ground pool, or playing with your $2,000+ PC, or driving your luxury German/Japanese/Korean automobile, please raise your hands!

Guess what? You aren't poor. Neither is your best friend getting drunk on $10 shooters, nor is the Botoxed Speaker of the House with her three new luxury jets, nor the neighborhood garbage man picking up your overflowing trash.

Poor is when you haven't eaten in the last couple of days, your drinking water reeks of fermenting old shit, your kids are covered with flies and your last baby died of starvation when your wife couldn't produce enough milk due to being in a state of near starvation. It is when your teeth are falling out due to vitamin deficiencies and your first born is functioning with an IQ reduced by ten points just because good food and clean water are impossible dreams. It is when malaria and AIDS has killed off half the people you know and you are just starting to get those shivers yourself.

But, you are a do-gooder, you want the U.S. to impose climate control programs that will stabilize the Earth's temperature to within a degree of what it is now. No matter to you that the Earth has regularly had natural temperature swings well in excess of that goal. You will rage against scientists and economists that dare to suggest the required trillion dollar investment might be applied more usefully elsewhere, like toward the elimination of malaria or the distribution of vitamin supplements to starving populations. You will forgo your iced soy latte one day a week to show your girlfriend or boyfriend that you are a person of sacrifice.

The wheels of economic progress are turning in some of the worst places on earth. The governments that are charged with the welfare of these places don't quite see things the way you do.

I can see their point.

Global Warming and the Poor

Global Warming and the Poor
by BRET STEPHENS
The Wall Street Journal
AUGUST 5, 2009

A funny thing happened on the way to saving the world?s poor from the ravages of global warming. The poor told the warming alarmists to get lost.

This spring, the Geneva-based Global Humanitarian Forum, led by former U.N. General Secretary Kofi Annan, issued a report warning that ?mass starvation, mass migration, and mass sickness? would ensue if the world did not agree to ?the most ambitious international agreement ever negotiated? on global warming at a forthcoming conference in Copenhagen.

According to Mr. Annan?s report, climate change-induced disasters now account for 315,000 deaths each year and $125 billion in damages, numbers set to rise to 500,000 deaths and $340 billion in damages by 2030. The numbers are hotly contested by University of Colorado disaster-trends expert Roger Pielke Jr., who calls them a ?poster child for how to lie with statistics.?

But never mind about that. The more interesting kiss-off took place in New Delhi late last month, when Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh told visiting Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that there was no way India would sign on to any global scheme to cap carbon emissions.

?There is simply no case for the pressure that we, who have among the lowest emissions per capita, face to actually reduce emissions,? Mr. Ramesh told Mrs. Clinton. ?And as if this pressure was not enough, we also face the threat of carbon tariffs on our exports to countries such as yours.? The Chinese?the world?s largest emitter of CO?have told the Obama administration essentially the same thing.

Roughly 75% of Indians?some 800 million people?live on $2 a day or less, adjusted for purchasing power parity. In China, it?s about 36%, or about 480 million. That means the two governments alone are responsible for one in every two people living at that income level.

If climate change is the threat Mr. Annan claims it is, India and China ought to be eagerly beating the path to Copenhagen. So why aren?t they?

To listen to the climate alarmists, it?s all America?s fault. ?What the Chinese are chiefly guilty of is emulating the American economic model,? wrote environmental writer Jacques Leslie last year in the Christian Science Monitor. ?The United States passed up the opportunity it had at the beginning of China?s economic transformation to guide it toward sustainability, and the loss is already incalculable.?

Facts tell a different story. When Deng Xiaoping began introducing elements of a market economy in 1980, Chinese life expectancy at birth was 65.3 years. Today it is about 73 years. The numbers are probably a bit inflated, as most numbers are in the People?s Republic, but the trend line is undeniable. In India, life expectancy rose from 52.5 years in 1980 to about 67 years today. If this is the consequence of following the ?American economic model? then poor countries need more of it.

But what about all the pollution in India and particularly China? In Mr. Leslie?s telling, CO emissions are part-and-parcel with common pollutants such as particulate matter, toxic waste, and everything else typically associated with a degraded environment. They?re not. The U.S. and China produce equivalent quantities of carbon dioxide. But try naming a U.S. city whose air quality is even remotely as bad as Beijing?s, or an American river as polluted as the Han: You can?t. America, the richer and more industrialized country, is also by far the cleaner one.

People who live in Third-World countries?like Mexico, where I grew up?tend to understand this, even if First-World environmentalists do not. People who live in oppressive Third World countries, like China, also understand that it isn?t just greater wealth that leads to a better environment, but greater freedom, too.

To return to Mr. Leslie, his complaint with China is that it has become too much of a consumer society, again in the American mold. Again he is ridiculous: China has one of the world?s highest personal savings rates?50% versus the U.S.?s 2.7%. The real source of China?s pollution problem is a state-led industrial policy geared toward production, and state-owned enterprises (especially in ?dirty? sectors like coal and steel) that strive to meet production quotas, and state-appointed managers who don?t mind cutting corners in matters of safety or environmental responsibility, and typically have the political clout to insulate themselves from any public fallout.

In other words, China?s pollution problems are not a function of laissez-faire policies and rampant consumerism, but of the regime?s excessive lingering control of the economy. A freer China means a cleaner China.

There?s a lesson in this for those who believe that the world?s environmental problems call for a new era of dirigisme. And there ought to be a lesson for those who claim to understand the problems of the poor better than the poor themselves. If global warming really is the catastrophe the alarmists claim, the least they can do for its victims is not to patronize them while impoverishing them in the bargain.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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There is an interesting corollary to the position expressed in the original post. Right now the developing countries are blowing off climate change alarmism. But what would happen if, as part of the cap and trade scheme, the U.S. imposes punitive measures against those countries that are not as "enlightened" as we are?

Cap-and-trade would trigger a new global trade war

Washington Examiner

August 6, 2009

Among the least-discussed flaws in the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill that recently passed the House and pending in the Senate is the serious damage it will inflict upon international commerce and trade. Steven Chu, President Obama's energy secretary, warned in March that "if other countries don't impose a cost on carbon, then we will be at a disadvantage." To compensate, the argument goes, we would impose penalties - aka "tariffs" - on products bought by Americans and produced in other countries that don't abide by politically correct limits on carbon emissions.

This is why the bill would undermine America's legitimate overseas interests by authorizing carbon tariffs against products produced by our new global competitors like China and India, which refuse to participate in anti-global warming schemes. These same countries would in turn impose retaliatory tariffs on American exports that, like virtually all tariffs, would ultimately harm businesses, workers and consumers here at home.

Policymakers need only go back to the dishonorable history of the Smoot Hawley tariff of 1930 that was designed to protect American industry and revive the economy from the then-young Great Depression. Instead, Smoot-Hawley constrained growth, with spiraling unemployment and widespread misery the result. There is every reason to expect a similar result today if Obama-Waxman-Markey becomes law. India made it crystal clear during Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's July visit there that the world's largest democracy has no plans to join any anti-emissions schemes that reduce economic growth.

With anti-Americanism on the rise throughout Europe, Russia resurgent, and China on the rise, it helps to have allies like India that are willing to forge meaningful economic and military ties. But Obama-Waxman-Markey could jeopardize this relationship even as the measure does next to nothing to curb global warming. Moreover, a wave of new scientific studies are casting growing doubts about the legitimacy of global warming claims made by big-name outfits such as the UN's Inter-governmental Protocol on Climate Change (IPCC).

Senators now preparing to take up the House-passed version of Obama-Waxman-Markey should heed the miserable failure of cap-and-trade in the European Union. France has proposed that such tariffs be imposed against non-EU nations that do not submit to a new deal on climate change. A top German official has described the proposed U.S. carbon tax as "a new form of eco-imperialism." Instead of mimicking self-destructive European practices, American leaders should roll back punitive energy regulations at home and bolster alliances that count abroad!

Cap-and-trade would trigger a new global trade war
 

RyanPaulShaffer

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Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: sandorski
This should be in your other GW thread.

Incorrect.

His other thread is about global warming alarmism being just that...alarmism.

This thread is about cap and trade's negative effect on the poor.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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It's been a long brought up argument that the rich west has done most of the pollution so it's a bit crazy to ask the now-polluting destitute to cut back, with us enjoying what the filth of our smokestacks has already created while telling them they're not allowed to go as far as we have. In that sense, we ought to limit carbon emission to per-capita GDP; rich countries are thus motivated to get better and the poor are allowed to loosen their belt, since they are in such a state of hardship to begin with.
 

Red Irish

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Mar 6, 2009
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: sandorski
This should be in your other GW thread.

Incorrect.

His other thread is about global warming alarmism being just that...alarmism.

This thread is about cap and trade's negative effect on the poor.

Fair enough, but I am beginning to see an agenda.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
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You see liberals are the ones that really hate poor people. As a wall street journal columnist I
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: sandorski
This should be in your other GW thread.

Incorrect.

His other thread is about global warming alarmism being just that...alarmism.

This thread is about cap and trade's negative effect on the poor.

Thanks. The debate is actually twofold and the arguments are independent of each other.

The first debate is about the science and whether we can or should do anything from a scientific/effectiveness perspective. Here we discuss the lack of scientific consensus, the uncertainty of causative factors and the nominal effectiveness, if any, of proposed governmental approaches and programs should the underlying premise of anthropogenic climate change be accepted.

The second is a discussion of economic impact on the U.S. and the other countries of the world. An important consideration here is the factoring of opportunity costs, the trade off of money spent on an admittedly minimally effective proposed program vs more beneficial programs that have a significantly greater chance of achieving stated goals. The stated corollary is the response, if any, from those nations that are unwillingly affected by the imperial imposition of climate control regimes.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: sandorski
This should be in your other GW thread.

Incorrect.

His other thread is about global warming alarmism being just that...alarmism.

This thread is about cap and trade's negative effect on the poor.

Fair enough, but I am beginning to see an agenda.

I am very open about my perspective and my discussion agenda -

Though I question that there is a conclusive "truth" as to anthropogenic climate changes, I take my own position as an economist, not as a scientist.

As a concerned citizen, I am advocating the consideration of approaches being proposed by guys like Bjørn Lomborg and others. That is, I want to examine the best use of national wealth and effort and I want effort, if any, to be as a result of a detailed consideration of opportunity costs. To the greatest extent possible I want to avoid catastrophic unintended consequences.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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is there like a jesse jackson of poor people who speaks for all 3rd world peoples?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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This is why nuclear war can't be prevented. Too many people have jobs devoted to self destruction. We would kill ourselves saving ourselves from killing ourselves.

People are able to rationalize anything if their money is at stake.

Assholes to assholes and dust to dust, as they say.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
is there like a jesse jackson of poor people who speaks for all 3rd world peoples?

Jesse Jackson is a money and fame grubber and Mother Theresa died September 5, 1997.

The voice of the poor is lost in the sheer mass they represent.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
is there like a jesse jackson of poor people who speaks for all 3rd world peoples?

Jesse Jackson is a money and fame grubber and Mother Theresa died September 5, 1997.

The voice of the poor is lost in the sheer mass they represent.

thank god you have come along.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
is there like a jesse jackson of poor people who speaks for all 3rd world peoples?

Jesse Jackson is a money and fame grubber and Mother Theresa died September 5, 1997.

The voice of the poor is lost in the sheer mass they represent.

thank god you have come along.

Go out and do good deeds, my son.

:cool:
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
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And yet... for all our alarmism... most environmentalist can't see the forest for the trees.

Case(s) in point:

Cash for clunkers -- get all those polluting old cars off the street and put a new car in it's place that gets better gas mileage. Nevermind the fact that that new car took 10k to 40k+ of materials sourcing and manufacturing costs (which boils down to shit tons of energy costs). great... your new car gets another ten miles a gallon... but the equivalent of 2000 to 10000+ gallons of fuel were burned to make and ship your car.

The focus on more expensive hybrid cars versus cheap and easy to make cars. As above, a hyundai elantra cost about 11k brand new and gets 30 mpg. A hybrid XYZ cost 20-25k and get 40-50 mpg. At least 2/3's of that additional expense is directly related to manufacturing energy costs... that's 6-10k worth of additional energy that a hybrid would have to save over it operational lifetime to justify purchasing it over the cheaper hyundai elantra... thats 2500 to 4000 gallons of gas you'd have to save over, say 10 years, to make purchasing a hybrid beneficial from a energy footprint perspective.

And yet i see GW fanatics driving $50k+ cars all the time, drinking bottled water (disgustingly un-energy-efficient), ya da ya da... that's what make me laugh about the whole business. There are a lot of people on the GW bandwagon... but a lot of these people are also honestly clueless.

Be honest with yourselves people... how many of you GW folks honestly considered that fact a huge portion of the sticker price a vehicle is embodied in the energy footprint required to make that car? And that the manufacturing energy footprint of the car comprises a huge amount of the overall energy footprint of the vehicles entire life cycle? Hmm... hmm?

Because most people that I tell these facts to, let alone GW people, never thought about it.

And yes, I own a hyundai elantra... because I choose to try limit my personal energy footprint as much as possible.
 

ericlp

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Dec 24, 2000
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Must be PJ himself or his brother. It's getting old tho...

Not gonna get sucked into another PJ thread that's been debated and debated and debated. Just another troll baiting the hook. If you wanna waste your time reading the BS and clogging up bandwidth then by all means! Have Fun!
 

miniMUNCH

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Nov 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
is there like a jesse jackson of poor people who speaks for all 3rd world peoples?

As an interesting aside... our US mass media, both liberal and conservative, pretty much ignores the plight of the poor in the 3rd world.

As a second point... I would be completely unsurprised if we were to tally up the charitable giving of dems and reps in congress and found out that the per capita giving of the two parties was pretty much the same, even if adjusted by a personal wealth factor.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
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quote: "Guess what? You aren't poor. Neither is your best friend getting drunk on $10 shooters, nor is the Botoxed Speaker of the House with her three new luxury jets,"

Attention fool, the three new jets were requested by the senators and reps from Georgia, where they are made. They are not for the exclusive use of the speaker of the House.
In fact, the use of private jets for congressional leaders started with (R) Dennis Hastert after 9/11 because of security concerns. And Speaker Pelosi uses commercial jets when traveling on personal business.

Quit whining.
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
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I drive a Jeep Wranger. Off the shelf it gets 18MPG, so I tow our van around behind it.
 

dphantom

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Jan 14, 2005
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Originally posted by: ericlp
Must be PJ himself or his brother. It's getting old tho...

Not gonna get sucked into another PJ thread that's been debated and debated and debated. Just another troll baiting the hook. If you wanna waste your time reading the BS and clogging up bandwidth then by all means! Have Fun!

But you just did. ;)

AGW is dead. Climate change will happen and man has nothing meaningful to do with it. But there is no reason why we cannot do all we can to develop better and more efficient energy. We are going to need ALOT more electricity if we make any sizable move to alternative automobiles and that means more coal, nuclear and a vast expansion of solar and wind. The later 2 will by no means come close to meeting demand for electricity.

Besides, energy = wealth. The more energy we use, the wealthier, healthier we all are. So it behooves us to find ways to help BRIC expand their energy production while helpig the environment as much as we can.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's been a long brought up argument that the rich west has done most of the pollution so it's a bit crazy to ask the now-polluting destitute to cut back, with us enjoying what the filth of our smokestacks has already created while telling them they're not allowed to go as far as we have. In that sense, we ought to limit carbon emission to per-capita GDP; rich countries are thus motivated to get better and the poor are allowed to loosen their belt, since they are in such a state of hardship to begin with.

I thought global warming could lead to the end of mankind as we know it? Why would you want others to be able to "loosen their belts" when the consequences are so high?