Global Climate Coincidence

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7006640.stm

The researchers at NSIDC judge the ice extent on a five-day mean. The minimum for 2007 falls below the minimum set on 20-21 September 2005 by an area roughly the size of Texas and California combined, or nearly five UKs.


You know, a lot of people will try to blame this on increasing global temperatures, but can we really say for sure? I mean, Ollie Williams (from the BlaccuWeather forecast) can't predict the weather next week and the science on temperature is still out. It wasn't that long ago that scienticians thought heat was a fluid! We really need more info before we consider acting.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,434
209
106
Weather forcasting and climate forcasting are two totally different things.
Like micro economics and macro, you might not be able to guess what the Dow will do on a daily basis but you can get most of the year right.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: desy
Weather forcasting and climate forcasting are two totally different things.
Like micro economics and macro, you might not be able to guess what the Dow will do on a daily basis but you can get most of the year right.

Your sig is quite appropriate for your statement here ;)
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
Originally posted by: Martin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7006640.stm

The researchers at NSIDC judge the ice extent on a five-day mean. The minimum for 2007 falls below the minimum set on 20-21 September 2005 by an area roughly the size of Texas and California combined, or nearly five UKs.


You know, a lot of people will try to blame this on increasing global temperatures, but can we really say for sure? I mean, Ollie Williams (from the BlaccuWeather forecast) can't predict the weather next week and the science on temperature is still out. It wasn't that long ago that scienticians thought heat was a fluid! We really need more info before we consider acting.


..give the eco-theists and the KOOKS a chance and they will blame us all for breathing.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: Martin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7006640.stm

The researchers at NSIDC judge the ice extent on a five-day mean. The minimum for 2007 falls below the minimum set on 20-21 September 2005 by an area roughly the size of Texas and California combined, or nearly five UKs.


You know, a lot of people will try to blame this on increasing global temperatures, but can we really say for sure? I mean, Ollie Williams (from the BlaccuWeather forecast) can't predict the weather next week and the science on temperature is still out. It wasn't that long ago that scienticians thought heat was a fluid! We really need more info before we consider acting.


..give the eco-theists and the KOOKS a chance and they will blame us all for breathing.

Well, if you're a worthless human being, why should you be allowed to exhale which increases global warming?

:D
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
In terms of global warming climate models, its my understanding that critics of global warming take some delight in pointing out the climate models predict more warming at the lower latitudes than is observed in real life. What is odd is that the same climate models predict far less ice melting in the upper latitudes than is observed in real life.

Its very clear that climate models need more work and what is actually happening may prove the eco-kooks right even if we and they don't understand why they are right.

If nothing else, we need to invest more money in quality unbiased study. What is happening now is unprecedented in records dating back at least a million years.
 

Comanche

Member
May 8, 2005
148
0
0
I agree with Lemon Law. They cannon predict the weather 10 days out, let alone 100 years. If this were 1300 AD, would they have been able to predict the little ice age. Also, if you think of all the things that we have now compared to 100 years ago, what do we have in store for us in the next 100 years.

The science that we have now is still not nearly complete enough to give us climate models that will tell us what is in store for us. If the sun goes into another minimum in the next few years as solar scientists are predicting, then we may be in store for another cooling trend. When that happens, the GW people are going to change tactics and say that Global Cooling is the result of carbon generation. It is a no win scenario.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) said the minimum extent of 4.13 million sq km (1.59 million sq miles) was reached on 16 September.

The figure shatters all previous satellite surveys, including the previous record low of 5.32 million sq km measured in 2005.

hmm...so based on data from 1979-2007..28 years of data....

i'm not sure what it means or portends....
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,493
7,547
136
Originally posted by: Lemon law
What is happening now is unprecedented in records dating back at least a million years.

CO2 levels maybe, but your statement is a complete lie for temperature records. We are not yet as warm as the Medieval Warming from 900-1300 AD.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Jaskalas may have hit the rub when stating---CO2 levels maybe.

But it now is starting to look like its methane releases in the upper latitudes is what is driving this as increased CO2 jump starts the methane released from the permafrosts.
With methane something like an order of magnitude greater a greenhouse gas than CO2. And in terms of ice records, its my understanding we do have records dating back
at least a million years which the medieval warming hardly dented.

But maybe when methane releases are plugged into climate models, maybe we can get better prediction from climate models. Climate prediction is getting more complex and multi-faceted than anyone could dream even a decade ago.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) said the minimum extent of 4.13 million sq km (1.59 million sq miles) was reached on 16 September.

The figure shatters all previous satellite surveys, including the previous record low of 5.32 million sq km measured in 2005.

hmm...so based on data from 1979-2007..28 years of data....

i'm not sure what it means or portends....

That's always my favorite part... When eco-theists cite the HISTORICAL satellite data like it's been around for centuries. :laugh:
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
Something's happening without question.

People bandying about terms like "eco-theists" have their heads buried in the sand.

We really need to figure out where it's going to go, do we need to try to change it, and how we can and do we influence it.

Ignore it at your own peril.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Something's happening without question.

People bandying about terms like "eco-theists" have their heads buried in the sand.

We really need to figure out where it's going to go, do we need to try to change it, and how we can and do we influence it.

Ignore it at your own peril.

They're operating on faith as much as the average christian does... I think it's an appropriate tag.

I think the first step... before we blame US (people) for this... is to establish exactly what is going on. Is this man made or is this just part of a natural cycle? I'd like to see that question definitively answered first. We are in the middle of a small rise in temperature following a significant period of cooling (Little Ice Age) whose start happens to coincide with the industrial revolution. Most of this warming happened before 1940. We know that the earth has warmed and cooled in much more violent cycles in the past. Maybe we should try to figure out whether it's us or nature first instead of defaulting to this knee-jerk, 'it's all our fault' mentality.

Personally I think it's hubris to think that we have so much influence on the global climate. I think at best... our impact amounts to a fraction of a percent.



 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,111
5,643
126
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Something's happening without question.

People bandying about terms like "eco-theists" have their heads buried in the sand.

We really need to figure out where it's going to go, do we need to try to change it, and how we can and do we influence it.

Ignore it at your own peril.

They're operating on faith as much as the average christian does... I think it's an appropriate tag.

I think the first step... before we blame US (people) for this... is to establish exactly what is going on. Is this man made or is this just part of a natural cycle? I'd like to see that question definitively answered first. We are in the middle of a small rise in temperature following a significant period of cooling (Little Ice Age) whose start happens to coincide with the industrial revolution. Most of this warming happened before 1940. We know that the earth has warmed and cooled in much more violent cycles in the past. Maybe we should try to figure out whether it's us or nature first instead of defaulting to this knee-jerk, 'it's all our fault' mentality.

Personally I think it's hubris to think that we have so much influence on the global climate. I think at best... our impact amounts to a fraction of a percent.

It's foolishness to think it's Hubris.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: sandorski
It's foolishness to think it's Hubris.

Sez U

Yup, me and the overwhelming majority of the leading experts on the subject.

Take out 'overwhelming majority' and I'll somewhat side with you.

It's not an overwhelming majority. Many scientists have had their work cherrypicked and added to the MMGW side without their permission. But because their work is cited (even if they don't agree with the conclusions of the study) their name is added to the list of contributing scientists. Then folks like you say "Hey! See! So many scientists...!"

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: desy
Weather forcasting and climate forcasting are two totally different things.
Like micro economics and macro, you might not be able to guess what the Dow will do on a daily basis but you can get most of the year right.
Rubbish. If a person cannot estimate on a small scale, their large scale will merely exacerbate their inability and make greater estimates even more meaningless. What you said is akin to me estimating a software project and, though I'm off on a certain class I have to code and it takes two days instead of one, overall my estimation for the entire project will be more accurate. This is not based in reality and is total fantasy. When you cannot control the small things, you've no hope in controlling the huge. Forecasting, estimating grand predictions are impossible (unless you get very lucky) without a solid base on the small. This is why I know that since the weatherman cannot tell me what it will be like in 7 days, he has no chance of telling me what it will be like in 7 years and my cynicism is so well documented in climatology that it's not cynicism but reality. Predictions and models are all consistent in one area: They're all wrong, each and every time.

That people as a whole still trust these models, even though the creators of them have cried wolf a thousand times, is simply indicative of a learning disorder.

 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,434
209
106
OK time to dispell the myth that weather forcast '5 days' is poor actually is 80% accurate

http://www.robinstewart.com/pe...rn/wfbc/computers.html Thus, in 1980, predictions beyond about 5 days were essentially useless; but by 1998 5-day forecasts were fairly accurate (80% anomaly correlation). Looked at in a slightly different way, we can now predict 5 days ahead with the same accuracy as we could predict only 3.5 days ahead in 1980.

In spite of anecdotal evidence , they do get it right frequently in the short range.
One of my best friends is a senior metorologist with Environment Canada who hires all kinds of code monkeys to build and create the models.
I'll take his opinion over yours, sorry.

Our department has a whole division setup to mitigate climatic changes and extreme events planning now needed.
Yes, they all debate why climate change is happening, CO2, methane, solar flares , whatever, but no-one is of the opinion that it isn't happening. We do studies to see how much methane off-gassing a water body produces with submerged rotting vegitation.
Methane is 20X CO2 as a greenhouse gas in impact BTW. So we don't even worry about how to effect the climate the more imprtant role is how we respond to it.
If the solare flares theory pans out we may actually be heading to much cooler days ahead and we need to prepare for that eventuality as well.
In fact the one PHD beside my office said he hopes it isn't solare flares and it is man made cause we can't really do anything about the sun.

I worry much more about peak oil than climate actually because I know man can adapt to climate, its why we live in every corner of the globe but once we run out of cheap energy and thats what peak oil is. The absence of cheap energy, man as a species will potentially have to go through a lot of change in a MUCH shorter time frame and that we have been proven to be poor adapters of.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: desy
Weather forcasting and climate forcasting are two totally different things.
Like micro economics and macro, you might not be able to guess what the Dow will do on a daily basis but you can get most of the year right.
Rubbish. If a person cannot estimate on a small scale, their large scale will merely exacerbate their inability and make greater estimates even more meaningless. What you said is akin to me estimating a software project and, though I'm off on a certain class I have to code and it takes two days instead of one, overall my estimation for the entire project will be more accurate. This is not based in reality and is total fantasy. When you cannot control the small things, you've no hope in controlling the huge. Forecasting, estimating grand predictions are impossible (unless you get very lucky) without a solid base on the small. This is why I know that since the weatherman cannot tell me what it will be like in 7 days, he has no chance of telling me what it will be like in 7 years and my cynicism is so well documented in climatology that it's not cynicism but reality. Predictions and models are all consistent in one area: They're all wrong, each and every time.

Wow. You totally missed desy's point. His analogy was good but I'll try stating it in a different way. Randomness on a small scale does not make large scale predictions impossible. Here's an extremely simple example. Let's say you have a machine that outputs 1's 60% of the time and 0's 40% of the time. There is enough randomness in this machine on a small scale that a prediction of the next 10 values could easily have a huge percent error, whereas a prediction of the next 100,000 values would have an extremely small percent error.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: Martin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7006640.stm

The researchers at NSIDC judge the ice extent on a five-day mean. The minimum for 2007 falls below the minimum set on 20-21 September 2005 by an area roughly the size of Texas and California combined, or nearly five UKs.


You know, a lot of people will try to blame this on increasing global temperatures, but can we really say for sure? I mean, Ollie Williams (from the BlaccuWeather forecast) can't predict the weather next week and the science on temperature is still out. It wasn't that long ago that scienticians thought heat was a fluid! We really need more info before we consider acting.


..give the eco-theists and the KOOKS a chance and they will blame us all for breathing.

Well, if you're a worthless human being, why should you be allowed to exhale which increases global warming?

:D

..according to the eco-theists and eco-KOOKS all humans are worthless and the planet would be better off if humans were off.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Something's happening without question.

People bandying about terms like "eco-theists" have their heads buried in the sand.

We really need to figure out where it's going to go, do we need to try to change it, and how we can and do we influence it.

Ignore it at your own peril.


..I see the willing accomplices have done a job on you.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: sandorski
It's foolishness to think it's Hubris.

Sez U

Yup, me and the overwhelming majority of the leading experts on the subject.

Take out 'overwhelming majority' and I'll somewhat side with you.

It's not an overwhelming majority. Many scientists have had their work cherrypicked and added to the MMGW side without their permission. But because their work is cited (even if they don't agree with the conclusions of the study) their name is added to the list of contributing scientists. Then folks like you say "Hey! See! So many scientists...!"


..the agenda comes first. Then pick and choose the necessary plug in's to support the agenda. It's creative fraud in motion. Then get the willing accomplices in the media to drum beat it.