I believe that Larry is talking about OEM type pre-builts such as from consumer lever Dells and HPs, not something from someone like Newegg that is put together from standard parts that the vendor also sells. The former is I am referring to when I talk about per-builts.
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Getting slight cold feet on this build.
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VirtualLarry
No Lifer
Yeah, heck, if I were in the market for it, and didn't feel like building (ok, that's pretty rare), I probably wouldn't have any reservations about buying an ABS (Newegg house brand), or PowerSpec (Microcenter's house brand, built out of enthusiast parts) rig. Those ARE upgradable.
What I was primarily speaking to, was the (sadly, all too proprietary) Dell and HP rigs, even ones sold as a tower as a "Gaming PC" such as mine. (Which, thankfully, had an extra drive bay and SATA port, to add an SSD.)
Basically, I was arguing against mass-market consumer OEM PCs, not distributor special whitebox custom PCs, which are much in the same vein as what I build, only they have the advantage of getting the parts wholesale, which arguably means I shouldn't even be in the PC-building biz, but whatever.
What I was primarily speaking to, was the (sadly, all too proprietary) Dell and HP rigs, even ones sold as a tower as a "Gaming PC" such as mine. (Which, thankfully, had an extra drive bay and SATA port, to add an SSD.)
Basically, I was arguing against mass-market consumer OEM PCs, not distributor special whitebox custom PCs, which are much in the same vein as what I build, only they have the advantage of getting the parts wholesale, which arguably means I shouldn't even be in the PC-building biz, but whatever.
XavierMace
Diamond Member
Now we're getting somewhere. 🙂
If you had a PC building business, you'd have a business license and be able to write off your PC purchases as a business expense. You'd also be trying to come up with a better business plan. People either aim for a large market or a high profit margin (or better yet both). You're aiming for a tiny market and even tinier profit margin. Of course you'd also get all the red tape that comes with having a business but that's the way it works.
If you had a PC building hobby, you would just be buying stuff for the fun of it and at that point it doesn't matter what people want because you bought it for fun anyways. If you recoup some of your costs later, great, but that's just a bonus. Either that or you'd wait until somebody asked you to build them a PC, then buy the appropriate parts.
But you're trying to buy parts as a hobby and then sell them like a business. That's not the way that works and I think you know that even if you don't want to admit it. Either accept the fact you're buying parts for the sake of buying parts and will likely never recoup your costs, or start treating it like an actual business and build systems with a better chance of making a profit. If you want to argue that's not a fair statement, I'd ask what percentage of the stuff you buy do you make a profit on and what does your hourly rate work out to on average.
I get you're on a fixed income and having some sort of additional revenue source would be beneficial. Turning your hobby into a revenue choice seems like a reasonable idea. Except it rarely is. My grandma struggled with the same issue and we had to have this same talk with her. She loved making custom/personalized greeting cards. One day she decided she would try to turn it into a revenue source. She bought a bunch of card stock and started printing cards off her inkjet printer. That ran out of ink, so she bought more ink. She quickly realized that was too expensive so she started buying refills. Then the printer died, so she bought another inkjet. She'd sell a few cards here or there, but not come close to recouping the cost of the ink, let alone the printer. It was one of her favorite things to do, and nobody wants to tell somebody to give up something they love doing. But the fact was, she couldn't afford to keep doing it.
On a fixed income (or any sort of limited budget), it's all the more important to make wise decisions with your money. I've said before, I'm not exactly a poster child for making sound financial decisions. I get where you're coming from. I may have even told you this story before.
For the better part of a decade I was into airsoft guns. It started out with a couple and I'd go to games with friends and we'd all have a good time. Me being a fat guy, that was at least a semi-regular form of exercise. Then two guns became 10, then 20, and kept going. I started buying fancier ones and upgrading them. As time went on, I stopped going airsofting, but I kept buying more airsoft guns because it was fun. Everyone needs a hobby, right? I'd sell some, then buy some more. Then one day on one of the forums I run, a new kid started a thread asking people to post their "rigs" and state how much money they've spent on airsoft. It was a spoiled kid with well off parents so he thought he was the shit with his $1k rig. Me being me, I decided it was my duty to put him in his place. So, first I went back to the closet and took a count. Then I recounted because I didn't believe my count. Then I counted a third time, just to be safe. I was laughing all the way back to my computer and then I started logging into all the sites I buy stuff from. I stopped laughing. You know what I found?
120 guns, and $28,000 of receipts. And that's just the ones I could find and didn't count local stores. I hadn't even used any of them for anything other than pigeons in years at that point. Outside of my house, the most expensive single purchase I've ever made was buying a new Subaru BRZ for $26k. That's right, I could have paid for my car with cash if I hadn't spent it all on airsoft guns.
That was the day I told myself I'm never allowed to buy another airsoft gun again and I've never regretted that decision for a minute.
Yuriman
Diamond Member
It's an easy trap to fall into. I recently had the realization that I can't really have electric bike building as both a hobby and as a business at the same time. Ultimately if I build what I want and have fun with it, it's at a loss. I can make a small profit if I build to other people's specifications, but the amount I make per hour is a tiny fraction of what I make at my day job, and it's a lot less fun than if I were building what I wanted.
On that note, anyone want to buy some ebikes below cost? 😉
On that note, anyone want to buy some ebikes below cost? 😉
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
Great stories. Puts some things into perspective.
I guess my efforts do primarily fall under "hobby", that, for the longest time, I've tried to turn into a "Side Gig".
And XavierMace, your grandmother should have bought herself a brother printer. $50 printer, $0.50 ink carts.
I guess my efforts do primarily fall under "hobby", that, for the longest time, I've tried to turn into a "Side Gig".
And XavierMace, your grandmother should have bought herself a brother printer. $50 printer, $0.50 ink carts.
dave_the_nerd
Lifer
I've been telling you for years that you should just charge for support and services. Most of your clients would be perfectly happy with a prebuilt Dell/HP. Tell them which one to buy, find them a coupon code, and tell them you charge $35/hr for diagnosis/repair with a minimum bench fee of $75. $50/hr for training/instruction.
But you bust your @$$ trying to find them a "good deal" and you end up selling them a computer below cost and supporting it for free; which you are somehow ok with because you like building PCs.
Now, really liking to build PCs is all well and good, to a point. But jeez man.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
Well, I did get my friend that was paying me off for two years (stopped one year in) for a PC, to pay me $10/mo for a tech-support maint. plan. (*Additional labor charges for house calls)
Now that he's not paying me any more for the PC, maybe I could charge him $15-20/mo? For "(distance) Tech support with no fixed limit per month (*)" (*) Until / unless you piss me off. (*) $50 charge for house calls.
That would be an increase over previous plan rates. Although, the house calls would turn into a flat fee, rather than hourly, so for a two-hour or longer visit, that would be savings.
That friend doesn't have a lot of money. But if I could get a few more customers on a plan like that, it would make a decent little supplemental income.
bigboxes
Lifer
Yeah, I used to build a lot of PCs. Then entry level PCs became an appliance. Like XM said, I just sent entry level clients to retail channels. It's not worth building when "those" customers don't see the value of a better case and other parts. They just want to surf the net and check their email. Even ten years ago I was building bad ass rigs for customers. With tablets, laptops and smartphones, most peeps just don't see the need for a better "experience". I got tired of trying to convince them no matter how good a salesman I was. Then there's the gamers that I used to count on. Most of them ditched the PC for consoles. Most games are just ported from console versions. I still build badass machines for myself. There's just not the market there once was.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
Too true. My "warehouse" of unsold custom PCs, is kind of like the scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Kind of.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
I need to learn some more networking, take some Cisco classes or something, maybe get a cert if I can handle it.
I'm somewhat of an expert on SOHO routers, but I could stand to learn a LOT more about Linux's networking stack, IPTABLES, etc., as well as the whole corporate networking thing, including Cisco, but not limited to them. (I hear SDN is becoming more of a thing, and Cisco is kind of lagging in that category.)
I know Netgear / Linksys / D-Link / TrendNet / TP-Link / Tenda / DD-WRT / Tomato / AsusWRT pretty well, although I've yet to use a "Mesh" SOHO setup. I used my own WDS and later, "Client Bridge" setup, with Tomato firmware back in the day on Linksys / Cisco E2500 v1 routers. Before that, I had some Netgear 824Bv1 (IIRC), and WRN2000v2 routers, running DD-WRT. That was fun! I effectively had Mesh, before it was a thing, although I didn't have the optimized wireless client handoff, that a true Mesh setup has.
Surely, there's some money deploying / upgrading SOHO wifi. I think GeekSquad charges like $150 for a house call to set up a router and one PC.
I'm somewhat of an expert on SOHO routers, but I could stand to learn a LOT more about Linux's networking stack, IPTABLES, etc., as well as the whole corporate networking thing, including Cisco, but not limited to them. (I hear SDN is becoming more of a thing, and Cisco is kind of lagging in that category.)
I know Netgear / Linksys / D-Link / TrendNet / TP-Link / Tenda / DD-WRT / Tomato / AsusWRT pretty well, although I've yet to use a "Mesh" SOHO setup. I used my own WDS and later, "Client Bridge" setup, with Tomato firmware back in the day on Linksys / Cisco E2500 v1 routers. Before that, I had some Netgear 824Bv1 (IIRC), and WRN2000v2 routers, running DD-WRT. That was fun! I effectively had Mesh, before it was a thing, although I didn't have the optimized wireless client handoff, that a true Mesh setup has.
Surely, there's some money deploying / upgrading SOHO wifi. I think GeekSquad charges like $150 for a house call to set up a router and one PC.
Well i worked very briefly for TWC actually did some Installs...no I would not call them or Best buy lol...But you are talking about Foreign Alien redacted to me too though Linux lol....No more of the Electrical Wizard and all that Stupid math you won't like with it and the Silicon valley and Semiconductor Industry.
2nd day here, and already
your 2nd infraction for profanity
in the tech areas.
There is NO profanity allowed
in the tech forums.
AT Mod Usandthem
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XavierMace
Diamond Member
Check out the courses at your local community college. They should have a basic Networking and a CCNA course, it's going to be cheaper than paying for the cert directly yourself, and it's a more relaxed pace. For example when I took my VMWare VCP, it was $360 and a couple of months of 2 night classes a week. Compared to $3,500 and a 1 week course. I took the accelerated CCNA class when I took mine (1 week class). That was brutal.
This is also your friend: https://www.gns3.com/software
monkeydelmagico
Diamond Member
Yes, THE LONGEST time. I stopped posting in your threads years ago after realizing you were not really looking for business advice. You just wanted to type about selling computers to make it seem more real.
I think it's great you are starting to turn the corner and recognizing it as a hobby. The pressure on yourself to try and make this a viable business will be lifted. You can focus on the joy of it instead of trying to make a buck.
dave_the_nerd
Lifer
If it's a hobby there's no rationale for buying three of everything.
XavierMace
Diamond Member
Only 3?
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
Need half a dozen. At least!
dave_the_nerd
Lifer
Technically you can be addicted to pretty much anything.
SlowBox
Member
Its not a addiction its a hobby bro.
Torn Mind
Lifer
Entry level PCs are basically a saturated market. The big players get volume discounts on new rigs. There are a gazillion refurbished rigs that are officially Microsoft Authorized..
Never mind that laptops are kind of more convenient for most people. There's also consumption devices like the IPad, phones are becoming even more power and versatile. .
You're better off going into small engine repair than trying to outpunch all those guys. Besides, one of the selling points of PCs is support, and I highly doubt one man can handle supporting over a period of time more than a handful of boxes.
Never mind that laptops are kind of more convenient for most people. There's also consumption devices like the IPad, phones are becoming even more power and versatile. .
You're better off going into small engine repair than trying to outpunch all those guys. Besides, one of the selling points of PCs is support, and I highly doubt one man can handle supporting over a period of time more than a handful of boxes.
Yuriman
Diamond Member
Considering the push toward electric, I wouldn't put my cards there either.
Yeah I wouldn't even bother building entry level rigs for my own use unless I have something really specific in mind. I do think it is best if you are building a DIY PC that you go for mid-range to high end systems as that where you would get the most value from custom builds.
Torn Mind
Lifer
Battery-powered and corded electric can work in residential urban and suburban environments. Not in larger yards like agricultural areas. Electric motors will always be physically limited in generating the necessary power to cut through grass. Commercial companies would never fathom electric because of lack of access to outlets and lacking in power to get the job done as quickly as possible. Never mind that snowblowers and pressure washers are also of need in certain areas.
Torn Mind
Lifer
Surf the net and checking email are the two top reasons PCs were adopted by the masses in the first place, and most of what's done by computer users is on the Internet, be it for work or for play. Teleworking is just as much surfing the net as watching the Netflix stream. Torrenting a load of movies is also surfing the net, but playing the movies don't require all that much. Being able to connect to the Internet makes any device with that feature more useful, which is why everything is being stuffed with WiFi nowadays, even things like refrigerators.
As far as games are concerned, mobile has compelling offerings too, and certain games like Fire Emblem Heroes attract whales, who likely can spending a few hundred or thousands to get what they want.
PCs have always been appliances. Just that it was a more expensive appliance that was out of the budget for the lower classes. Then when they became sort of affordable, "better" performance carried a pretty premium. What you can get with a $500 PC now is far better than it was 10-15 years ago. Back then, PCs would die to HD video. Now, cheap boxes can steam 4K content. Plus, they do all of this without any real risk of blowing up. Basically, technological improvements have made PCs function better at less cost than in the past.
In the most common instance in which a computer case is opened perhaps once or twice during its life, a 20 dollar case is all that is necessary. After, case steel will always be Chinesium. If I wanted to pour money into steel alloys, it'd be through knives or high quality tools.
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