Getting ready to buy my first projection TV

[Amused]

Originally posted by: purbeast0

Originally posted by: Amused
If you're going to be doing a lot of theater style veiwing in a dark room, I would consider a CRT based RP over a DLP.

While DLPs are very nice, nothing beats a good CRT based RP for black levels, still. A good CRT will make a DLP' blacks look washed out and gray by comparison in a dark, theater style environment. Not nearly as bad as an LCD based RP, but still not as good as a CRT.

If the vast majority of viewing will be in a well lit room, DLP is your best choice.

wow dude I am going to have to disagree. My bro's roomate got a 65" Mitsubishi CRT RPTV (the one thats like 350lbs) and my bro's roomate, my brother, and I, all agree that the TV picture on my 50" DLP looks better than the picture on the 65" Mitsubishi TV.

Well, of course which CRT you buy is important, just as which DLP you buy is important.

Also, proper calibration is important. Probably most important. All my TVs are ISF calibrated:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

A high quality, properly calibrated CRT will beat a DLP when it comes to black levels. This isn't nearly as noticable if you do all your viewing in a well lit room. But it becomes very notcable when watching in a dark, theater like environment. LCDs and Plasmas are even worse.

Here, look at this shootout among projector technologies for black levels:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1734383,00.asp

Do a google search for [ "black level" +dlp +crt ] to see more.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=...=off&q=%22black+level%22+%2Bdlp+%2Bcrt

DLPs, while the best of the digital formats, still cannot compete with CRTs for black levels.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect.

Arkitech, make sure you check out some DLPs before you decide if you want one.

I've found that material where there's a black background with a few bright white patterns on the screen is when they are most apparent for me.

Opening credits on a black background would be a good thing to test with.

Try moving your eyes quickly from one side of the screen to the other while viewing something like that to see if you see them or if they bother you.

I can see them if I do a test like that, but can't see them 99% of the time. When they do show up in situations like that, I'm not really bothered by them.

This is a personal thing that affects some people pretty badly (enough to make them sick) so check it out.

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

 

[frankgomez75]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
Go with DLP. IMO, it goes DLP > LCD > Plasma. However, it really is a personal preference, but as far as image quality, Plasma is the worst of the three (while still very good).

I chose DLP after seeing all the TV's I was looking at in motion. I too watch a lot of movies, and a lot of different types of movies. I quickly noticed that on LCD that the blacks do not display in true black, they have a blueish color to them. You will know what I mean if you look at a black sceen on an LCD RPTV.

The downside of DLP is that some people experience the rainbow effect. I personally do not know what this is exactly because I don't see it at all on my TV, nor does anyone else that has watched my TV. I have heard that it gives people headaches and what not, but again, I've never experienced it.

Picture wise, DLP > LCD. Again, thats my opinion. It really is personal preference. The picture on my 50" Samsung is just breathtaking when watching movies or HDTV.

Oh, and btw, HDTV standard is 16:9, so if you get a HD 4:3 TV you are making a HUGE mistake. And all HDTV's will do 720p or 1080i.

HDTV standard is 16:9 @ 720p/1080i

Yep, DLP is the shiat! Check out mine in my sig.
Overall, I spent 2 months researching and viewing TV's and found DLP to be the best in Picture Quality compared to LCD or Plasma, excluding the very very very high end plasmas ($10,000+).

Also, when viewing TV's make sure you understand that most TV's on display are NOT PROPERLY CALIBRATED! Best Buy, CC, etc... don't calibrate their TV's properly therefore you may not be seeing the best picture.

Narrow down the ones you like and give them a test drive. Take it home and set it up in your viewing space. Use a calibration DVD like AVIA DVD or Digital Video Essentials DVD to properly set up the TV. You can return them or exchange them for another at most places.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect.

Arkitech, make sure you check out some DLPs before you decide if you want one.

I've found that material where there's a black background with a few bright white patterns on the screen is when they are most apparent for me.

Opening credits on a black background would be a good thing to test with.

Try moving your eyes quickly from one side of the screen to the other while viewing something like that to see if you see them or if they bother you.

I can see them if I do a test like that, but can't see them 99% of the time. When they do show up in situations like that, I'm not really bothered by them.

This is a personal thing that affects some people pretty badly (enough to make them sick) so check it out.

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

I think it's getting significantly better as color wheels are getting faster. The one in my projector is faster than the famous Infocus X1, but I think it's still kind of on the slow side.

Best advice would be to go out and see for yourself

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

 

[RossMAN]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

Agreed. For you, DLP is probably your best choice.

Not all DLPs are created equal. So be careful and shop wisely. Also, get whatever set you buy ISF calibrated. The price will shock you... until you get it done and see the results. Then you'll wonder why you waited.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

Agreed. For you, DLP is probably your best choice.

Not all DLPs are created equal. So be careful and shop wisely. Also, get whatever set you buy ISF calibrated. The price will shock you... until you get it done and see the results. Then you'll wonder why you waited.

I've heard about that professional calibration, and I've also heard that the new technologies don't really need to be professionally calibrated to be at their highest performance.

Again I don't know much about calibrating, but on DLP's and such can it make THAT much of a difference? I mean I can't really see how shows in HD could really get that much better (aside from 1080p).

But about the CRT TV's not being calibrated, that is definitely true. I know they have many more settings that need to be tweaked in order to get the best picture.

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

Agreed. For you, DLP is probably your best choice.

Not all DLPs are created equal. So be careful and shop wisely. Also, get whatever set you buy ISF calibrated. The price will shock you... until you get it done and see the results. Then you'll wonder why you waited.

What is ISF calibration and how much does it cost?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: purbeast0

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

Agreed. For you, DLP is probably your best choice.

Not all DLPs are created equal. So be careful and shop wisely. Also, get whatever set you buy ISF calibrated. The price will shock you... until you get it done and see the results. Then you'll wonder why you waited.

I've heard about that professional calibration, and I've also heard that the new technologies don't really need to be professionally calibrated to be at their highest performance.

Again I don't know much about calibrating, but on DLP's and such can it make THAT much of a difference? I mean I can't really see how shows in HD could really get that much better (aside from 1080p).

But about the CRT TV's not being calibrated, that is definitely true. I know they have many more settings that need to be tweaked in order to get the best picture.

Oh yes. In a DLP it can make a HUGE difference. Mainly, DLPs suffer from the same color inaccuracies as CRTs and once dialed in, will simply shock you at how much better they look.

While CRTs will also benefit from proper focusing of the guns to make them sharper and DLPs don't need this, the color, white level and black level adjustments are still needed.

 

[RossMAN]

I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I see purbeast0 mentioned Rainbow effect. .

Do you know if that problem exists in the new generation of DLPs

Samsung's -8 series (50 - 61", 1080p, $3500-$5000) is supposed to have reduced this.

My brother (with the 61") says he hasn't seen it at all, but I don't know if he's tried snapping his head around or other tricks to try to catch a rainbow

All techs have issues: plasma and LCD have weaker black levels, most plasmas you can buy now don't have "pixel shift" to stop burn-in, CRTs can be fuzzy and weigh 3 times as much, etc.

Yep, it all depends on what your pet peeve is. Mine is black levels since I love movies and most often watch in a darkened environment.

A properly calibrated high quality CRT can easily approach the sharpness of a DLP. Of course, a DLP will be sharper, especially with video based HD content, but that isn't as important to a movie fan such as myself.

Also, a DLP is the better choice if you watch mostly in a well lit room and a lot of TV content.

Again, it's all a matter of personal taste combined with prefered application.

Thanks for the sound advice.

I'm more of a TV junkie and don't have control over lighting, so I think a DLP is right for me.

Agreed. For you, DLP is probably your best choice.

Not all DLPs are created equal. So be careful and shop wisely. Also, get whatever set you buy ISF calibrated. The price will shock you... until you get it done and see the results. Then you'll wonder why you waited.

What is ISF calibration and how much does it cost?

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It takes a few hours and costs a few hundred. But is well worth it.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Good thing is you can do most of the stuff yourself.

Some TVs are tracking greyscale very well out of the box these days.

But the biggest thing ISF can do is get your color right at all brigtness levels.

I was lucky, I had the top mitsubishi guy come out to my home to ISF my CRT. He said I already had it dialed in so close there was nothing he could do.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Good thing is you can do most of the stuff yourself.

Some TVs are tracking greyscale very well out of the box these days.

But the biggest thing ISF can do is get your color right at all brigtness levels.

I was lucky, I had the top mitsubishi guy come out to my home to ISF my CRT. He said I already had it dialed in so close there was nothing he could do.

Bah, by the time you learn how to do it, and buy the equipment and software needed, you may as well just pay a pro to come do it.

Also, I've read a multitude of threads on the AVSforums of people attempting this. It just isn't worth it for most people. Many of the outcomes have been disastrous.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Good thing is you can do most of the stuff yourself.

Some TVs are tracking greyscale very well out of the box these days.

But the biggest thing ISF can do is get your color right at all brigtness levels.

I was lucky, I had the top mitsubishi guy come out to my home to ISF my CRT. He said I already had it dialed in so close there was nothing he could do.

Bah, by the time you learn how to do it, and buy the equipment and software needed, you may as well just pay a pro to come do it.

Have the prices gone down? I thought ISF certified guys were like 5-600 bucks?

Either way the calibration is a night and day difference.

 

[RossMAN]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Call me cheap but I'd rather pay for an extended warranty than ISF calibration. I'm by no means a video or audiofile. If AVIA does some calibration or fine tuning then I'm fine with that. I got the DVD through DVDTalk.com a while ago for $10 shipped, very hot deal.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Good thing is you can do most of the stuff yourself.

Some TVs are tracking greyscale very well out of the box these days.

But the biggest thing ISF can do is get your color right at all brigtness levels.

I was lucky, I had the top mitsubishi guy come out to my home to ISF my CRT. He said I already had it dialed in so close there was nothing he could do.

Bah, by the time you learn how to do it, and buy the equipment and software needed, you may as well just pay a pro to come do it.

Have the prices gone down? I thought ISF certified guys were like 5-600 bucks?

Either way the calibration is a night and day difference.

Yeah, and the time it takes to learn how to do it, buy the light meter and software, and all the failed attempts you've wasted a few grand in time and money.

This verses 300-600 for a pro. I believe DLPs are a bit cheaper because there is no geometry to fix or guns to focus.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Call me cheap but I'd rather pay for an extended warranty than ISF calibration. I'm by no means a video or audiofile. If AVIA does some calibration or fine tuning then I'm fine with that. I got the DVD through DVDTalk.com a while ago for $10 shipped, very hot deal.

I guess you wont understand until you SEE the difference.

The Avia does nothing but user changeable calibrating. This is NOT the same as the ISF calibration. Not even close.

To me, spending a couple grand or so on an HDTV and not calibrating it is like buying all the material for a new home, and just dumping it on the property. Sure, it's there, but it ain't complete.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Amused
If you're going to be doing a lot of theater style veiwing in a dark room, I would consider a CRT based RP over a DLP.

While DLPs are very nice, nothing beats a good CRT based RP for black levels, still. A good CRT will make a DLP' blacks look washed out and gray by comparison in a dark, theater style environment. Not nearly as bad as an LCD based RP, but still not as good as a CRT.

If the vast majority of viewing will be in a well lit room, DLP is your best choice.

After looking at lots of DLP, LCD and CRT RP sets, I finally settled on a Sony Vega 46" CRT RP set. I didn't like the LCD RP at all, I didn't like the screen door effect. The DLPs looked pretty good, but the picture on the Sony blew me away. Yeah, they set is huge and weighs a ton, but the picture, and the fact that it was only $1000 won me over.

 

[RossMAN]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Call me cheap but I'd rather pay for an extended warranty than ISF calibration. I'm by no means a video or audiofile. If AVIA does some calibration or fine tuning then I'm fine with that. I got the DVD through DVDTalk.com a while ago for $10 shipped, very hot deal.

I guess you wont understand until you SEE the difference.

The Avia does nothing but user changeable calibrating. This is NOT the same as the ISF calibration. Not even close.

To me, spending a couple grand or so on an HDTV and not calibrating it is like buying all the material for a new home, and just dumping it on the property. Sure, it's there, but it ain't complete.

You're right and you know more about this stuff than I do. If I can compare an ISF calibrated vs one out of the box and it BLOWS ME AWAY then I just might do it.

I just find it hard to spend $400 on a $1300 TV, unless it's an extended warranty.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I have an AVIA DVD around here somewhere.

How is that different from ISF calibration and how much does that cost?

Avia barely scratches the surface of what an ISF tech does.

Read up on it here:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

It's a few hundred dollars. But like I said, it is VERY well worth it. The difference is night and day.

Call me cheap but I'd rather pay for an extended warranty than ISF calibration. I'm by no means a video or audiofile. If AVIA does some calibration or fine tuning then I'm fine with that. I got the DVD through DVDTalk.com a while ago for $10 shipped, very hot deal.

I guess you wont understand until you SEE the difference.

The Avia does nothing but user changeable calibrating. This is NOT the same as the ISF calibration. Not even close.

To me, spending a couple grand or so on an HDTV and not calibrating it is like buying all the material for a new home, and just dumping it on the property. Sure, it's there, but it ain't complete.

You're right and you know more about this stuff than I do. If I can compare an ISF calibrated vs one out of the box and it BLOWS ME AWAY then I just might do it.

I just find it hard to spend $400 on a $1300 TV, unless it's an extended warranty.

Yeah, comparing is hard to do. I was easily talked into it because the year I got my Hitachi, it was the best mid priced HDTV on the market, but had an awful red push that was only correctable with ISF calibrating. (If you turned down the red to proper levels using the regular control menu, the blue was too muted)

Once I had it done, I was literally blown away. I had NEVER seen such accurate colors, such amazing contrast and such perfect geometry and sharpness on an HDTV before.

And I'm pretty cheap myself. But this was very much worth it. Inaccurate colors drive me nuts.