Getting hired

Markbnj

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Awhile back Dhaval (I believe) asked me for some thoughts about going through the hiring process during this economic crisis. I had been working for a small consulting development company, and that job folded up around the end of November. Given the holidays my search didn't really begin in earnest until Jan 1. I did look in December, but there just wasn't much happening.

I don't think I carried away many insights from the process, but there are a couple of things worth mentioning.

The obvious one is that the competition is much tougher. In my career I've had the experience of getting most of the jobs that I am a fit for after one day of interviewing, and sometimes after one interview. For the first month and a half I sent out resumes to opportunities located on Dice or Monster at a rate of 3-5 a day. If I got any reply at all it was usually to find out that the job paid $45/hour, or was 100 miles away. I got to the offer point on one job with a body shop only to be informed that I had to spend the first 6-8 weeks in Arizona. For the most part I didn't hear anything back.

Moreover I soon realized that on Dice, at least, I saw the same recruiters posting the same positions over and over again for weeks. Hundreds of them. In some cases these were positions I was a marginally-overqualified fit for, but I wasn't getting contacts back. I came to the conclusion that they were getting from my resume that I wouldn't work for what they could pay.

That was one class of opportunity. The other were the more "serious" jobs, jobs where you could tell they needed a strong background, good mind, good comm. skills, experience and judgement, etc. But, almost all of these jobs were for very specific skill sets. Don't apply if you don't know IBM MQ. Don't apply without Homeland Security experience in image processing and perimeter surveilance (I actually saw that one). I went after this one C++/Java job to create a web crawler. It sounded fun, but they would only talk to people who had recently written a web crawler. That posting stayed on Dice for weeks and weeks.

I even thought about pursuing more management-oriented opportunities, as much as I hate it, but I needn't have worried: there were almost no opportunities of that kind to consider. A project manager friend of mine that was let go at the same time I was is still looking.

Which led to my strategy shift. I decided that I had let my skills become too generic. I was competing with the fat and cheap part of the market. Over most of my career I've prospered by knowing the things that are beginning to take root, that other people don't know yet, and I had let that get away from me. I decided to focus more on what was a current interest anyway: Silverlight and WPF, and really dive in. I started participating on the MS Silverlight forums, and blogging about Silverlight and WPF topics. I started doing demo apps and posting them too. I established an open source Google search library on Codeplex.

All of this was intended to raise my profile in areas where I felt I would have less competition. All the while I continued to cruise Dice three times a week, and a couple of months into it I saw a posting for a telecommute opportunity. Sr. .NET dev/architect. I sent my resume and received an email back a couple of hours later. I learned they were a small company, in business 15 years, with a strong book of work, and completely virtual. After three interviews, total about 5 hours, including analysis of some written code examples and questions, they made me an offer.

I'm now working on the back end of a large production Silverlight 2 application for a major media company, from my home, for slightly more money than I was making previously (when OT opportunities are accounted for).

The strong lesson for me was: specialize in the hard stuff, and make sure you put a public face on it. I learned later that my Silverlight work, the quality of the demos, my blog posts, and my open source project all played a role in setting me apart from two other candidates that were under serious consideration. So far I am very much enjoying the job, and glad I beat the poor bastards out. But it was touch and go there for awhile. Things are definitely tough, especially if your title is "generic cube dwelling web app developer". The most important thing is to find some way to distinguish yourself from the pack.
 

EagleKeeper

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Developing a niche in a demand area will be the key.

Eventually, you have the opportunity to develop a reputation that can have people knocking on your door.

However, that reputation can easily become tarnished by others backbiting or a slip up on your part.

Patience and thinking outside the box will get you places.
 

imported_Dhaval00

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First of all, thanks for sharing, Mark. I am sure some of the newbies and the not so newbies, looking for jobs, will find this post helpful and encouraging (my calculation was that even though the economy is really bad, the IT and the pharma sectors are still hiring, albeit with increased competition).


Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Developing a niche in a demand area will be the key.

Eventually, you have the opportunity to develop a reputation that can have people knocking on your door.

However, that reputation can easily become tarnished by others backbiting or a slip up on your part.

Patience and thinking outside the box will get you places.


I think most of the sane souls amongst us understand this. But not having been in that situation, I can't relate. So for me, someone like Mark sharing his experiences is super-useful. I can brag about my job all day long, but I won't know what it feels to be like laid off until I get laid off. It is a harsh reality and could happen to anyone anytime.

Just to clarify, I agree with all your points, Common. It'll be interesting to see how others feel.
 

DaveSimmons

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Nice post, Mark. I'm fortunate to be at a company that's in the black and has no reason to get rid of me any time soon but it's interesting to see that right now the market is divided between well-paid niches and underpaid generic development.

Your strategy is exactly what I've thought of doing when I ponder changing jobs, so I'm glad to see it worked for you.

It's also not a bad idea for anyone with an OK job and some spare time: start diving into some specialty that interests you like Workflows, WCF or WPF for Windows or Xcode and iPhone develpment for OS X, or ....?, and go much deeper than push-button apps to the point where you're posting articles to CodeProject instead of just reading them.

I'm in something of a gilded cage of Win32 and MFC right now (with a little PHP and ActionScript on the side) and I spend my nights watching movies instead of doing extra coding. So do as I say, not as I do :)
 

Kromis

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This should definitely be stickied until the economy recovers :thumbsup:
 

invidia

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Originally posted by: Markbnj

The strong lesson for me was: specialize in the hard stuff, and make sure you put a public face on it. I learned later that my Silverlight work, the quality of the demos, my blog posts, and my open source project all played a role in setting me apart from two other candidates that were under serious consideration.

Were most of these stuff you did out of your previous job, ie during your free time?

 

Markbnj

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Originally posted by: invidia
Originally posted by: Markbnj

The strong lesson for me was: specialize in the hard stuff, and make sure you put a public face on it. I learned later that my Silverlight work, the quality of the demos, my blog posts, and my open source project all played a role in setting me apart from two other candidates that were under serious consideration.

Were most of these stuff you did out of your previous job, ie during your free time?

I had started with Silverlight back in release 1 beta, and WPF somewhat earlier. However I didn't really have time to dig in and write about what I was doing until I was laid off and had a bunch of free time. So the answer is: they're what I did to be productive after I no longer had a job.
 

invidia

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Originally posted by: Markbnj
Originally posted by: invidia
Originally posted by: Markbnj

The strong lesson for me was: specialize in the hard stuff, and make sure you put a public face on it. I learned later that my Silverlight work, the quality of the demos, my blog posts, and my open source project all played a role in setting me apart from two other candidates that were under serious consideration.

Were most of these stuff you did out of your previous job, ie during your free time?

I had started with Silverlight back in release 1 beta, and WPF somewhat earlier. However I didn't really have time to dig in and write about what I was doing until I was laid off and had a bunch of free time. So the answer is: they're what I did to be productive after I no longer had a job.

Just wondering, I do a bit of outside projects not of the professional setting. I was always under the impression that employers don't care what you did outside of work experience/education since it wasn't in a work/industrial environment. For an instance, a 3-D physics engine and some Flex apps that I'm working on in my free time.
 

imported_Dhaval00

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Oh, this reminds me: what kind of questions were you asked? Since this was a senior position, I am assuming they stuck mostly to your project-work, but am still curious. Was there a "general theme" to all the interviews? Did you stumble during the initial interviews?
 

Markbnj

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Originally posted by: invidia
Originally posted by: Markbnj
Originally posted by: invidia
Originally posted by: Markbnj

The strong lesson for me was: specialize in the hard stuff, and make sure you put a public face on it. I learned later that my Silverlight work, the quality of the demos, my blog posts, and my open source project all played a role in setting me apart from two other candidates that were under serious consideration.

Were most of these stuff you did out of your previous job, ie during your free time?

I had started with Silverlight back in release 1 beta, and WPF somewhat earlier. However I didn't really have time to dig in and write about what I was doing until I was laid off and had a bunch of free time. So the answer is: they're what I did to be productive after I no longer had a job.

Just wondering, I do a bit of outside projects not of the professional setting. I was always under the impression that employers don't care what you did outside of work experience/education since it wasn't in a work/industrial environment. For an instance, a 3-D physics engine and some Flex apps that I'm working on in my free time.

I had some prospective employers ask specifically whether I had done Silverlight in production, for example. It wasn't that big of a negative to answer no, and I always added that very few people have had that opportunity yet. In general I think they fell into two categories: the ones that asked a lot of checkbox questions on specific things they wanted; and the ones that took a broader approach to finding out what I knew and could do. There were only a few of those, and the company that hired me was one of them.

Originally posted by: Dhaval00
Oh, this reminds me: what kind of questions were you asked? Since this was a senior position, I am assuming they stuck mostly to your project-work, but am still curious. Was there a "general theme" to all the interviews? Did you stumble during the initial interviews?

I only had three serious interviews in the four months I was looking. The first was for one of the top 10 consulting companies, and was a technical lead/architect/business relations role. They asked me a bunch of touchy feely MBA bullshit and then gave the job to an internal applicant.

The second was for the body shop I mentioned in the first post. They first sent me a link to a series of timed online tests. There were about thirty questions in three different Microsoft technology areas, and while you pondered each question a big, red counter in the upper left ticked off the seconds until you were screwed. Many of the questions were ambiguous, and a number were outright tricks. I did well on that, and they followed up with a phone interview that was the usual "we'll ramble through whatever questions the interviewer can think to ask" exchange.

The third, and successful interview started with a chat with the dir. ops. who was managing the process. After about a half hour he decided I was worth some time, and I was passed on to one of the other senior devs. He sent me a Powerpoint with probably 10-12 slides, each of which posed a problem or asked a question. He courteously sent it to me the night before our call. Some of them were insightful, a couple were traps, and easily spotted ones at that. We ran through it on the call and then had a general chat that involved a few more questions. He said later that I did better than 90% of the people he sends those slides to. Lastly I drove down to the owner's home town and met with him at a Starbucks where we chatted for two hours. Expecting the usual higher-level sales pitch, I was surprised when he immediately dove into an astute series of questions on networking, databases, .NET app deployment, performance tuning, etc. The guy knew his stuff. After that I was told that there were other candidates, and I would hear something in a week. Which I did :).
 

drebo

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I think it has a lot to do with where you are, as well. I live in Central California, for instance, and for being so close to Silicon Valley, there is a surprising lack of technically-minded people here. So much so that I received an unsolicited job offer from a local government agency that needed a ColdFusion developer with Great Plains experience. Definitely the niche aspect played into that offer, as I am a ColdFusion developer with Great Plains experience. Being that I currently had a job, I declined. But, after that phone call and the short verbal interview he had me do (I later learned that I had only scored an 86% and still received the offer), it confirmed what I had previously thought: there's a technical drought here. At my job, we've been trying to hire a PC technician for months...we've received a few applicants, but none of them knew their ass from a hole in the ground.

Just as much as there are niche skillsets, there are also certain locations which can provide both good job security as well as lots of opportunity.
 

VinylxScratches

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Thanks for the insight Markbnj, although I'm nowhere near where you are on a career level. I've decided to create my own blog where I document things and issues I came across or even just really simple guides. Would you say that would be helpful? I don't think it will ever have a huge following but maybe someone googling for a solution will come across my site once in a while.
 

Markbnj

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Originally posted by: VinylxScratches
Thanks for the insight Markbnj, although I'm nowhere near where you are on a career level. I've decided to create my own blog where I document things and issues I came across or even just really simple guides. Would you say that would be helpful? I don't think it will ever have a huge following but maybe someone googling for a solution will come across my site once in a while.

Believe me, there's nothing popular about my blog either :). However, when people are considering a candidate these days they almost always Google that person's name, and my blog comes up near or at the top when they do that. Also, I make mention of it on my resume, and in cover emails. So yes, I think it is helpful as a kind of extension to your resume. But at the same time you need to be careful about what you post there, and also about the other online tracks you leave.
 

Kromis

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Originally posted by: Markbnj
Originally posted by: VinylxScratches
Thanks for the insight Markbnj, although I'm nowhere near where you are on a career level. I've decided to create my own blog where I document things and issues I came across or even just really simple guides. Would you say that would be helpful? I don't think it will ever have a huge following but maybe someone googling for a solution will come across my site once in a while.

Believe me, there's nothing popular about my blog either :). However, when people are considering a candidate these days they almost always Google that person's name, and my blog comes up near or at the top when they do that. Also, I make mention of it on my resume, and in cover emails. So yes, I think it is helpful as a kind of extension to your resume. But at the same time you need to be careful about what you post there, and also about the other online tracks you leave.

Also, I think it helps if you keep your Facebook profile private as well :)
 

Madwand1

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Originally posted by: Markbnj
He said later that I did better than 90% of the people he sends those slides to.

Why didn't they hire the guy/girl who was better than you? ;)

 

Markbnj

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Originally posted by: Madwand1
Originally posted by: Markbnj
He said later that I did better than 90% of the people he sends those slides to.

Why didn't they hire the guy/girl who was better than you? ;)

I think his statistics spanned more than one hiring effort... or it was a figure of speech.
 

Madwand1

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Originally posted by: Markbnj
I think his statistics spanned more than one hiring effort... or it was a figure of speech.

And/or maybe he didn't want it to go to your head / wallet?
 

Markbnj

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Originally posted by: Madwand1
Originally posted by: Markbnj
I think his statistics spanned more than one hiring effort... or it was a figure of speech.

And/or maybe he didn't want it to go to your head / wallet?

Needless worry, if so. After four months on the beach I was hardly in a tough negotiating stance. But you know, that set of problems that he posed wasn't that hard. Only one of them gave me any pause. If I did better than 90% of the people he gives it to that says something about the state of the talent pool. And anytime I cruise through the forums at ASP.Net or Silverlight.net I'm inclined to believe that something.

Which, by the way, makes me greatly value the little community we have here. Nearly every post here is intelligent, and interactive, as opposed to nearly-illegible demands to "post me samplez code plx I needz help!"
 

degibson

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Originally posted by: Markbnj
Which, by the way, makes me greatly value the little community we have here. Nearly every post here is intelligent, and interactive, as opposed to nearly-illegible demands to "post me samplez code plx I needz help!"

Anandtech programming forum ftw we r l33t h@xx0rs roflmao