Germany foiled "massive attacks" on U.S. sites!

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
"...massive attacks..." :D

Were they going to flood Brooklyn, or attack an Army Base... all 3 of those evil-doers?
maybe you missed the information about their bomb being equivalent to 1210 lbs of TNT.. or maybe you're just slowwwww... one or the other.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Interesting though that it appears solid intelligence coupled with police action appears pretty effective against terrorist acts like this, and it's especially ironic that the U.S. military was the target since that is our weapon of choice in this war. Just illustrates how poorly equipped we are to handle terrorism.

Now, grandstanding aside I'm extremely grateful for the bust. Unfortunately, my family and I happen to live somewhat nearby this incident so it's a little nerve wracking.
Well said. First, kudos to the Germans for their great work. Second, I hope all the people who bought the "Terrorism isn't a law enforcement problem" propaganda notice that it was, in fact, police work that stopped this, not a military assault. While I certainly think the military has a role in combatting terrorism, it requires small groups of specialists, not massive firepower.
[/quote]

That is something they will never acknowledge due to the fact it goes against everything Bush has done the last 5 or so years. This so called war will not be won by armies, if anything it flames the fire.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I think the main blame lies with Republicans here

A wholly unexpected conclusion from a member of the P&N community....i'm stunned.

And just what community are YOU part of? Face it, if P&N used to be a bastion of liberalism, that is certainly no longer the case. I'm not sure what the actual numbers are, but what you guys might lack in numbers, you more than make up for in volume.

In any case, you've got it all wrong. Back in the day, certainly for a while after 9/11, I was a HUGE Bush supporter and considered myself quite the Republican. The main thing that drove me away from the party was the truly ridiculous politicizing of the war against terrorism (most of my more liberal views came later), something I thought (and still think) is serious enough that politics should stop at the water's edge. The incredible inability for Republicans to place ANYTHING before politics surpasses anything I've seen from the Democrats. They have their problems as well, and I think it's becoming neck and neck here with politicizing terrorism, but the Republicans clearly, if you'll pardon the 3rd grade expression, "started it".
 

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2004
3,750
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I think the main blame lies with Republicans here

A wholly unexpected conclusion from a member of the P&N community....i'm stunned.

And just what community are YOU part of? Face it, if P&N used to be a bastion of liberalism, that is certainly no longer the case. I'm not sure what the actual numbers are, but what you guys might lack in numbers, you more than make up for in volume.

In any case, you've got it all wrong. Back in the day, certainly for a while after 9/11, I was a HUGE Bush supporter and considered myself quite the Republican. The main thing that drove me away from the party was the truly ridiculous politicizing of the war against terrorism (most of my more liberal views came later), something I thought (and still think) is serious enough that politics should stop at the water's edge. The incredible inability for Republicans to place ANYTHING before politics surpasses anything I've seen from the Democrats. They have their problems as well, and I think it's becoming neck and neck here with politicizing terrorism, but the Republicans clearly, if you'll pardon the 3rd grade expression, "started it".

You know Rainsford I remember that about you, it annoyed the piss out of me :) It was nice to see you develop into one of the most intellectually honest folks on this forum. Modern Republicanism has revolted me as well, despite my moderate Republican roots. In fact it's an utter abortion of what it should be in theory now.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Wonder how much longer till Europe really opens their eyes to the threat of radical islam.

Since 9-11 there has been an attack in Spain, two in England, this failed plot in Germany and massive riots in France and the Netherlands carried out by muslims.

How long till they get onboard with us and take actions that will help in the Middle East.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How long till they get onboard with us and take actions that will help in the Middle East.

Uhh, when the hell are we going to do that? All we've done is make it worse.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Wonder how much longer till Europe really opens their eyes to the threat of radical islam.

Since 9-11 there has been an attack in Spain, two in England, this failed plot in Germany and massive riots in France and the Netherlands carried out by muslims.

How long till they get onboard with us and take actions that will help in the Middle East.

Nope. Most of them were not, in fact, Muslims. At least in Paris.

European countries are committed to fight terrorism, but do not think engaging in military operations in the middle east does anything significant in this direction. Especially Iraq, when you consider it was in fact the only laic country in the area.
 

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Wonder how much longer till Europe really opens their eyes to the threat of radical islam.

Since 9-11 there has been an attack in Spain, two in England, this failed plot in Germany and massive riots in France and the Netherlands carried out by muslims.

How long till they get onboard with us and take actions that will help in the Middle East.

:D :laugh: :beer:

I agree. Europe should bomb and invade Saudi Arabia.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
106
I've been to Germany once with my parents for three days (I was only 14 years-old but I still got some flashes of the trip sometimes). I liked the place much and I remember some German girl of my age back then used to come by the hotel we were in with I think her mother and I always looked at her hehe (we didn't speak to each others though).

It was in hotel Azenberg I believe in the north-eastern part of the city I think. It was in Stuttgart. The place was tremendously beautiful, the vegetation was much present on the streets and it was a calm place, as I can remember. Sad thing I didn't understand a single German word, all I knew back then was "Sauerkraut" heh.

So I keep a very good souvenir of Germany.

My congratulations to all the staff, security forces, intelligence/agents and organizations ! Vive Germany !
 

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
"...massive attacks..." :D

Were they going to flood Brooklyn, or attack an Army Base... all 3 of those evil-doers?
maybe you missed the information about their bomb being equivalent to 1210 lbs of TNT.. or maybe you're just slowwwww... one or the other.

From the article:

"...Prosecutors indicated police defused the danger earlier in the six-month investigation by stealthily substituting a harmless chemical for the raw bomb material amassed by the suspects. They said police moved in Tuesday when the alleged plotters seemed ready to try to make bombs..."

They had Tonic water General. Cheers :wine:
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I think the main blame lies with Republicans here

A wholly unexpected conclusion from a member of the P&N community....i'm stunned.

And just what community are YOU part of? Face it, if P&N used to be a bastion of liberalism, that is certainly no longer the case. I'm not sure what the actual numbers are, but what you guys might lack in numbers, you more than make up for in volume.

In any case, you've got it all wrong. Back in the day, certainly for a while after 9/11, I was a HUGE Bush supporter and considered myself quite the Republican. The main thing that drove me away from the party was the truly ridiculous politicizing of the war against terrorism (most of my more liberal views came later), something I thought (and still think) is serious enough that politics should stop at the water's edge. The incredible inability for Republicans to place ANYTHING before politics surpasses anything I've seen from the Democrats. They have their problems as well, and I think it's becoming neck and neck here with politicizing terrorism, but the Republicans clearly, if you'll pardon the 3rd grade expression, "started it".

You know Rainsford I remember that about you, it annoyed the piss out of me :) It was nice to see you develop into one of the most intellectually honest folks on this forum. Modern Republicanism has revolted me as well, despite my moderate Republican roots. In fact it's an utter abortion of what it should be in theory now.

It's no wonder the Libertarian Party is gaining somewhat more steam in recent years. I'd vote for a Libertarian candidate if he had a shot at the presidency. They are far, far more adamant about reducing government spending and viciously upholding the constitution (in both the spirit and the letter) than any conservative/Republican/neocon is nowadays.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,848
10,162
136
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Ldir

The problem is that killing 1 million fanatics only breeds 10 million more fanatics. Fighting terrorism stupidly makes it worse. Iraq is a case in point.

:roll: :roll:

There is no way to even address such a monumentally stupid statement.

Then I shall give it a try.

The invasion of Iraq was counter productive. This is correct. We did not enter Iraq for Terrorism, we entered it for the WMDs our people told us were there. We were wrong on the existence of those.

The rebuilding of Iraq is thought to be central to keeping it from falling to violent Islamic Supremacism much in the way Afghanistan fell to them. We are fighting for a stable and peaceful nation over there and that can be seen a crucial.

The folly of Iraq is not in the invasion. It is in non-existent WMDs and the thought that we can bleed ourselves to build a peaceful nation in the heart of the radicalization. This shall never come to pass - we are guaranteed to fail at this and the BEST outcome our efforts in Iraq shall produce is a new Iran.

As of the beginning of this year I have been firmly and consistently behind leaving Iraq to its own religion of peace so we can concentrate on FAR more pressing matters like Iran?s nuclear program and our border and security from Islamic Supremacism here in our home. Currently we?re failing in both areas.


As to meeting violence with violence. We call that war. This is not a ?War on Terrorism?. That is a misleading mistake by a blundering fool. Terrorism is not an object to be at war with ? Terrorism is a stratagem of warfare. A war waged against us by Islamic Supremacists. Our utter failure is in so much as properly identifying our killers. It should seem obvious to anyone who our killers are.

We need to stop them at their source, not just rampage across the globe in a genocide against Islam. Islam has a disease of violent supremacists and they are the ones who across the globe are killing people and who need to be stopped by force.

To say that we cannot do it is misleading. It is certainly not everything we must do, but fighting back is crucial to any war. Always has been always will be. The difference now is that we fight a new kind of opponent. Yet we cannot even do this until we identify our killers and move the public discussion to what we should do to secure ourselves at home and to remove them from our home. It appears we shall not do this until the 11th hour.

Until we clean our house first we shouldn?t be cleaning anyone else?s house.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
"...massive attacks..." :D

Were they going to flood Brooklyn, or attack an Army Base... all 3 of those evil-doers?
maybe you missed the information about their bomb being equivalent to 1210 lbs of TNT.. or maybe you're just slowwwww... one or the other.

From the article:

"...Prosecutors indicated police defused the danger earlier in the six-month investigation by stealthily substituting a harmless chemical for the raw bomb material amassed by the suspects. They said police moved in Tuesday when the alleged plotters seemed ready to try to make bombs..."

They had Tonic water General. Cheers :wine:
what the hell are you talking about? what article?

According to the multiple sources cited in this thread, the German suspects were captured with 750kg of hydrogen peroxide and military-style detonators.

Are you even talking about the same case?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
I want to personally thank George Bush for founding Germany so they could stop these attacks on our soil
Actually it was his grand father, remember all those German connections we are always being told about? :roll:
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: palehorse74
GERMANY GETS IT!
:beer:

Don't worry, once Bush is out suddenly all the naysayers here will be clamouring to support their new President in claiming terrorism is a big problem and Bush wasn't doing enough about it. Of course their method of fighting terrorism would be to raise taxes :p

I'm sorry but which one of Bush's policies prevented this? You brought him up. And what does the next president have to do with the Germans again? Flame bait at best.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Ldir
The problem is that killing 1 million fanatics only breeds 10 million more fanatics. Fighting terrorism stupidly makes it worse. Iraq is a case in point.
fair enough. But then what is the answer? appeasement? what lies in between eradication and appeasement?

My guess is that it's some sort of diplomatic middle-ground that involves "never-ending acceptable innocent losses" - and to some, that's not an option.

I know this issue is far too complex to resolve in a forum, but, for the sake of argument, what real steps could be taken to ensure the simultaneous end of fanaticism and the protection of innocents?

I think the answer is effective police work like this, good intelligence, and quit attacking Islamic countries and meddling in their affairs. Killing the terrorists is fine. Killing civilians makes things worse.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
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Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
I'd vote for a Libertarian candidate if he had a shot at the presidency.

Does anyone else find this attitude absolutely repulsive? "I'd vote for someone, but only if I thought they could win." Why are people so willing to sell out their ideals just so they can "win?" Hypocrisy is such a huge problem in America, and this is why. The notion that "what I believe doesn't matter; it's what I can say I believe to get on the winning team." That's why we have senators like Craig running on a platform of "no gay marriage," while engaging in private sex acts. We have Harry Reid saying he's against earmarks while trying to pass hundred of millions of dollars worth in his favor. We have Hillary who tells every crowd she speaks to something different to try to "win." It's repugnant.

I'd vote for my ideals, but winning is more important. Bullshit.

Note: This post is in no way a flame of Evan Lieb; some of the people I respect most in the world have said this exact same thing to me back in the Bush v Gore election ("I like Nader more, but I have to vote for Gore"). If you want things to change, stop cowering behind some shallow notion of "victory" and vote for the candidate you actually agree with. How will we ever break out of the two party system if everyone only picks one of the two candidates most likely to win?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,009
55,448
136
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Note: This post is in no way a flame of Evan Lieb; some of the people I respect most in the world have said this exact same thing to me back in the Bush v Gore election ("I like Nader more, but I have to vote for Gore"). If you want things to change, stop cowering behind some shallow notion of "victory" and vote for the candidate you actually agree with. How will we ever break out of the two party system if everyone only picks one of the two candidates most likely to win?

The way our electoral system voting for someone you think can win is mostly the only rational choice. It's a collective action problem, and one that is not unique to the US. The two party system is impossible to break out of the way our system is structured. In fact the problem is so common that in political science circles it's called Duverger's Law. Winner take all elections always lead to a two party system... and a choice between only two candidates.

People either vote ideologically or strategically depending on the situation. An interesting analysis of why people vote the way they do can be seen in the upcoming primaries. Right now everyone is supporting their favorite candidates (ideological voting), which is why you see most support in the 20's or so, and spread over a variety of people. What's going to happen is that as soon as the first primary or two happens you are going to see the race devolve into largely a two person race on both sides. You're going to have people coalesce around the candidate that A.) supports most of their views and B.) can win. Everyone else's support will go in the toilet. That's strategic voting. People always do it, because the side that doesn't always loses in a 2 party system... and nothing is going to change that outside of total electoral reform.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
From what I have read the German Police have had these people under scrutiny for about a year.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Congrats to Lebanon! Hats off to their intelligence forces as well!
http://today.reuters.com/News/...aspx?storyId=L02136965
Lebanon arrests fourth suspect in German bomb case
Sat 2 Sep 2006 6:01 AM ET

BEIRUT, Sept 2 (Reuters) - The Lebanese authorities have arrested a fourth suspect in connection with a plan to bomb two trains in Germany and have filed preliminary charges against five Lebanese and a Syrian, judicial sources said on Saturday.

Four of the Lebanese are in Lebanese custody, while one Lebanese and the Syrian are in Germany, they added.

They face charges of attempted mass murder in passenger trains in Germany and attempted arson, they said.

The sources named the fourth suspect as Khalil al-Bubbu but gave no details of his arrest. The others are Jihad Hamad, Khaled Kheireddin al-Hajj, Ayman Hawa, Youssef al-Hajj and Fadi al-Saleh, the Syrian. The last two are in Germany.

The latest legal step falls short of the formal indictment process, which comes at a later stage, and the investigations could turn up other suspects, the sources said.

The Lebanese authorities arrested Ayman Hawa on Aug. 28 based on information provided by Hamad and Khaled al-Hajj. Hawa is in his 20s and from the northern town of Akkar.

Hamad, a 20-year-old student, turned himself in to authorities earlier and confessed to planting a suitcase bomb. Investigations suggested he might have links with al Qaeda.

Youssef al-Hajj, 21, was identified in Germany on security camera footage that appeared to show him dragging a suitcase into a train in Cologne in July.

Suitcases like those in the footage were found packed with propane gas tanks and crude detonating devices on trains in Dortmund and Koblenz.

A German newspaper said on Friday the two failed attempts had originally been planned for the football World Cup.

The Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung cited security sources as saying interrogation of the suspects had established that the would-be bombers had abandoned the original plan as they had considered the implications of such an attack.

Under Lebanese law, the charges could carry a penalty of life imprisonment with hard labour.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
0

But... but... but we fought them in Iraq so we wouldn't have to fight them in our own countries! They only follow us home if we don't attack them there!

Anyhow, stupid mockeries of talking points aside, I wonder if people like XMan here are capable of distinguishing foreign nationals in foreign countries as part of a foreign intelligence gathering program and spying on American citizens in a similar fashion. For that matter, I'd like to see evidence that the espionage carried out against them was done without due process and oversight considering according to your link the Germans wanted aid.

Perhaps they had a warrant? Contrary to your dishonesty, the USA PATRIOT Act, did not, for the first time, allow wiretaps. They could do that before, they just needed a warrant to do it. So the mere fact they used electronic surveillance really tells us nothing about whether the methods used are what the left has been complaining about. Now, if you can show me Germany used unprecedented new powers to wiretap without due process or government oversight, then you might have a point. Otherwise this is just another lame, ill conceived shot at the left over a straw man you have invented for them.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
Germany says foiled "massive attacks" on U.S. sites
By Noah Barkin and Sabine Siebold
BERLIN (Reuters) - German security services foiled a plan by Islamist militants to carry out "massive bomb attacks" against U.S. installations in Germany and arrested the three men behind it, officials said on Wednesday.

Federal prosecutor Monika Harms said the men, two German nationals and one Turk, had been on the verge of launching their attacks after acquiring enough material to make a bomb with explosive power equal to 550 kilograms (1210 lbs) of TNT.

The men were arrested on Tuesday, the same day Danish police seized eight young Muslims they suspect of plotting a bomb attack and one week before the sixth anniversary of the September 11, 2001 hijacked plane attacks on targets in the United States.

"Thanks to the cooperation of federal and local police over several months, we were able to ... prevent massive bomb attacks," Harms told a news conference in Karlsruhe.

German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung described the security threat posed by the suspects as "imminent," while Chancellor Angela Merkel said a "horrible event" had been averted.

"It shows that the terrorist threat here isn't abstract. It's real," she said at a news conference in Berlin with visiting Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.

Officials could not confirm reports the accused had been targeting Frankfurt international airport and a major U.S. military base in Ramstein, but said they had been seen scouting out U.S. installations such as discos, pubs and airports.

"The apparent motive is hatred of Americans," said Federal Police chief Joerg Ziercke, adding that the explosives could have caused more damage than bombings in Madrid and London which killed 191 and 52 people.

The three belonged to a little known al Qaeda-affiliated Sunni Muslim group with roots in Uzbekistan called "Islamic Jihad Union," officials said. All three are believed to have trained in Pakistan militant camps.

It was unclear whether there was any link between the alleged German and Danish plots, official said.

Germany, which has forces stationed in Afghanistan, has been on high alert for attacks. The country has feared a re-emergence of militant Islamist groups since 2001, when the northern city of Hamburg was used as a base for planning the September 11 attacks.

In April the U.S. embassy in Berlin announced it was boosting security at diplomatic and military facilities in Germany in response to an increased threat of terrorism there.

RAID ON HOUSE

Ziercke said the men had been seized at a rented holiday house in the Sauerland region of North Rhine-Westphalia in western Germany.

Between February and August 2007, he said, the accused had acquired 12 large vats and filled them with a 35 percent hydrogen peroxide solution totaling some 730 kilograms.

"This amount would have been enough to cause damage on a greater scale than in London and Madrid," Ziercke said. He said the suspects were likely planning simultaneous car bomb attacks in locations across Germany.

Some 300 police had been tracking the suspects since December, when one of them was observed scouting out U.S. military facilities in the German city of Hanau, near Frankfurt.

The police swooped on Tuesday, raiding the house and some 40 other sites across Germany after local police unwittingly stopped the suspects on a routine traffic violation several days ago and they grew nervous, Ziercke said.

One suspect escaped out of a bathroom window but was detained after a scuffle with police in which a shot was fired. Police said additional arrests were possible.

"The United States congratulates the German government on its success in breaking up the plot by terrorists to attack targets in Germany," a U.S. embassy official in Berlin said.

Germany has not seen a major attack in several years. But concerns about an attack have mounted since two men of Lebanese origin tried to detonate crude bombs hidden in suitcases on trains last year. Prosecutors have said those bombs failed to go off because of a technical flaw.

"We are under threat," Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told a news conference in Berlin. "We have to remain vigilant."

(Additional reporting by Hendrik Sackmann in Karlsruhe, Erik Kirschbaum, Louis Charbonneau, Catherine Bosley and Sylvia Westall in Berlin)
Now with 100% more link!
:beer: It is always great to hear the success stories involving the often frustrating GWOT. I know that good news is not the norm around here, but I feel it necessary to spread this great news from across the pond.

I myself was born in Germany and have quite a large German family. They have often shared their concerns about Muslim terrorism within their own borders; so it's nice to see their police forces nail some of the baddies in their backyard! It also lets me know that my family there is safe, which is always the most important thing!

My hat is off to every member of the German forces who participated in these takedowns! I just wish I could buy them each a beer at Octoberfest in Munich! (DOH!)

GERMANY GETS IT! They are a truly worthy ally!
:beer:

And the groups who claim responsibility are in PAKISTAN, maybe Germany gets it but the US and the UK sure as fuck DON'T!